How often do we hear people “explaining” religious beliefs by stating “The Bible says so,” as if the Bible fell out of the sky, pre-translated to English by God Himself? It’s not that simple, according to an impressive and clearly-written book that should be required reading for anyone who claims to know “what the Bible says.”
Bart Ehrman’s Exploration: Who Changed the Bible and Why?
The 2005 bestseller, Misquoting Jesus, was not written by a raving atheist. Rather, it was written by a fellow who had a born-again experience in high school, then went on to attend the ultraconservative Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. Bart Ehrman didn’t stop there, however. He wanted to become an evangelical voice with credentials that would enable him to teach in secular settings. It was for this reason that he continued his education at Wheaton and, eventually, Princeton, picking up the ability to read the New Testament in its original Greek in the process.
As a result of his disciplined study, Ehrman increasingly questioned the fundamentalist approach that the “Bible is the inerrant Word of God. It contains no mistakes.” Through his studies, Ehrman determined that the Bible was not free of mistakes:
We have only error ridden copies, and the vast majority of these are centuries removed from the originals and different from them, evidently, in thousands of ways.
(Page 7). At Princeton, Ehrman learned that mistakes had been made in the copying of the New Testament over the centuries. Upon realizing this, “the floodgates opened.” In Mark 4, for example, Jesus allegedly stated that the mustard seed is “the smallest of all seeds on the earth.” Ehrman knew that this simply was not true. The more he studied the early manuscripts, the more he realized that the Bible was full of contradictions. For instance, Mark writes that Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal (Mark 14:12; 15:25) while John says Jesus died the day before the Passover meal (John 19:14).
Ehrman often heard that the words of the Bible were inspired. Obviously, the Bible was not originally written in English. Perhaps, suggests Ehrman, the full meaning and nuance of the New Testament could only be grasped when it was read in its original Greek (and the Old Testament could be fully appreciated only when studied in its original Hebrew) (page 6).
Because of these language barriers and the undeniable mistakes and contradictions, Ehrman realized that the Bible could not be the “fully inspired, inerrant Word of God.” Instead, it appeared to him to be a “very human book.” Human authors had originally written the text at different times and in different places to address different needs. Certainly, the Bible does not provide an an “errant guide as to how we should live. This is the shift in my own thinking that I ended up making, and to which I am now fully committed.”
How pervasive is the belief that the Bible is inerrant, that every word of the Bible is precise and true?
Occasionally I see a bumper sticker that reads: “God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.” My response is always, what if God didn’t say it? What if the book you take as giving you God’s words instead contains human words. What if the Bible doesn’t give a foolproof answer to the questions of the modern age-abortion, women’s rights, gay rights, religious and supremacy, western style democracy and the like? What if we have to figure out how to live and what to believe on our own, without setting up the Bible as a false idol–or an oracle that gives us a direct line of communication with the Almighty.
(Page 14). Ehrman continues to appreciate the Bible as an important collection of writings, but urges that it needs to be read and understood in the context of textual criticism, “a compelling and intriguing field of study of real importance not just to scholars but to everyone with an interest in the Bible.” Ehrman finds it striking that most readers of the Bible know almost nothing about textual criticism. He comments that this is not surprising, in that very few books have been written about textual criticism for a lay audience (namely, “those who know nothing about it, who don’t have the Greek and other languages necessary for the in-depth study of it who do not realize there is even any “problem” with the text).
Misquoting Jesus provides much background into how the Bible became the Bible. It happened through numerous human decisions over the centuries. For instance, the first time any Christian of record listed the 27 books of the New Testament as the books of the New Testament was 300 years after the books have been written (page 36). And those works have been radically altered over the years at the hands of the scribes “who were not only conserving scripture but also changing it.” Ehrman points out that most of the hundreds of thousands of textual changes found among the manuscripts were “completely insignificant, immaterial, of no real importance.” In short, they were innocent mistakes involving misspelling or inadvertence.
On the other hand, the very meaning of the text changed in some instances. Some Bible scholars have even concluded that it makes no sense to talk about the “original” text of the Bible. (Page 210). As a result of studying surviving Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, Ehrman concluded that we simply don’t have the original words constituting the New Testament.
Not only do we not have the originals, we don’t have the first copies of the originals. We don’t even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later-much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, and many thousands of places . . . Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts and there are words in the New Testament.
In Misquoting Jesus Bart Ehrman spells out the ways in which several critical passages of the New Testament were changed or concocted. They are startling examples:
A.) Everyone knows the story about Jesus and the woman about to be stoned by the mob. This account is only found in John 7:53-8:12. The mob asked Jesus whether they should stone the woman (the punishment required by the Old Testament) or show her mercy. Jesus doesn’t fall for this trap. Jesus allegedly states “Let the one who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.”
The crowd dissipates out of shame. Ehrman states that this brilliant story was not originally in the Gospel of John or in any of the Gospels. “It was added by later scribes.” The story is not found in “our oldest and best manuscripts of the Gospel of John. Nor does its writing style comport with the rest of John. Most serious textual critics state that this story should not be considered part of the Bible (page 65).
B) after Jesus died, Mary Magdalene and two other women came back to the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus, according to Mark 16:1-2). They were met by a man in a white robe who told them that Jesus had been raised and was no longer there. The women fled and said nothing more to anyone out of fear (16:4-8). Everyone knows the rest of Mark’s Gospel, of course. The problem with the remainder of the story is that none of it was originally in the Gospel of Mark. It was added by a later scribe. Those additions include all of the following:
Jesus himself appeared to Mary Magdalene. She told the eleven apostles (minus Judas) about this vision, but they did not believe her. Jesus then appeared to the apostles, chastising them for failing to believe. He tells them that those who believe will be saved and those who don’t will be condemned. Then follows a critically important passage of the Bible.
And these are the signs that will accompany those who believe: they will cast out demons in my name; they will speak in new tongues; and they will take up snakes in their hands; and if they drink any poison, it will not harm them; they will place their hands upon the sick and heal them.
Jesus is then allegedly taken up into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, while the disciples go forth into the world to proclaim the Gospel in miraculous fashion.
Without the above passages (which, again, were not written by Mark) the Pentecostals lose their justification for speaking in “tongues.” And the Appalachian snake handlers have no basis for their dangerous practices.
C) John 5:7-8 is the only passage in the entire Bible “that explicitly delineates the doctrine of the Trinity (that there are three persons and God but that all three constitute a single God):
There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Spirit and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.
Ehrman cites strong evidence that this Trinity passage was entirely concocted and foisted upon Erasmus by outraged theologians who needed support for their prized theological doctrine (page 81).
—
Ehrman reveals numerous other difficulties with the popular assumption that the Bible was perfectly handed down from its original written expression.
Many believers rely fervently on the King James version of the Bible, for instance. They sometimes even say “If the King James was good enough for St. Paul, it’s good enough for me.” Ehrman points out many problems with the King James version, warning that “we need to face up to the facts.”
The King James was not given by God but was a translation by a group of scholars in the early 17th century who based their rendition on a faulty Greek text.
(Page 209).
So what should we make of the Bible? Ehrman argues that the attacks of the New Testament are not simply collections of obvious, self-interpreting words. It’s the same problem we have with other important documents, such as the United States Constitution:
Texts do not simply reveal their own meanings to honest inquirers. Texts are interpreted and they are interpreted (just as they were written) by living, breathing human beings, who can make sense of texts only by explaining them in light of other other knowledge, explicating their meaning, putting the words of the text “in other words.”
(Page 217) The scribes changed the original words of the New Testament by putting them in other words.
In my experience, many people who cherry pick excerpts from the Bible as the proper way to determine what is moral are in utter denial that we don’t have accurate copies of the original writings.  Most of them refuse to acknowledge that current popular versions of the Bible contain numerous discrepancies, even compared to the earliest manuscripts we do have. This is on top of the fact that their are hundreds of patent contradictions in the English version of the Bible. To most believers, none of this matters. Stay the course! In fact, in my experience most believers rarely read what the consider to be God’s own inspired word.
Ehrman’s book points out numerous troublesome issues that demand attention even assuming that the original writers of the Bible accurately reported the events described in their original writings (whatever those writings were).  The elephant in the room, however, is that none of the authors of the Gospels ever claimed to witness any of the events they were reporting. Further, the extraodinary nature of Biblical claims demands extraordinary proof that ancient self-contradictory writings are simply incapable of providing, except to those of us who believe that the Bible is completely true “because it says so in the Bible.”
For all of those people who continue to go around clentching and thumping those Bibles they bought at Wal-Mart, and for all the rest of us who want to get the story straight, Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus should be required reading.
[Administrator’s Note: More than 540 comments were quickly contributed to this post, making this page too long to download and display. Therefore, on March 23, 2007, I closed off new comments. Last night (February 4, 2009), I discovered a WordPress plugin that allows me to paginate comments, thereby protecting the site from the sudden and repeated load of 540 comments.
Here’s the good news, then.  Anyone who has not yet had his or her say on Bart Ehrman’s book may now jump in at the original post and post a comment.  That’s right! If none of the 540 comments that have come before you didn’t address an important aspect of Bart Ehrman’s book, you may now remedy that omission, right here in the comments to this original post. Godspeed. ]
Hi StupID Says,
Your name is very accurate to the body of your post. God created logic. The beginning of your statement contradicts the rest of your statement, unless you call your own argument brilliant. Are we to take your imaginative words and believe them as if you have solved the puzzle? Ok, sold, there is no God because you say so. Now what? You say that people of faith come here throwing stones???? No one of unbelief is throwing stones right? WOW dude, think about your comments as you are throwing stones in the same sentence you speak of others about. Come on dude, intelligence has to be found in your posts if you want to be heard. And if you don't want to be heard, then why the heck are you here in the first place? I am not here to convert people but to speak the truth about things in a diffferent fashion. If people like me don't exist, then you would be bashing some other concept for some other reason. At least thank the Christians for pulling you out of your boredom state of mind.
Ray, in response:
While I appreciate that you felt the need to try and respond to one of the points I made, I must warn you that we are inherently at an impasse. I don't expect to convince you of anything; in fact, if you read my post, I leave it up to everyone to believe whatever they please. While much of our morality and codes of ethics are coming from the same place, there are certain ideological differences, and theological differences, that better men than us would not be able to overcome.
As far as "elohim" being plural: it's plural because there are many ways of naming G-d, not that there is a plurality of his incarnations. Yaweh (I am that I am), Hashem (literally, "The Name"), and many others are all ways of addressing G-d, like calling him "My Rock and Redeemer".
Keep in mind that many elements of your canon are considered apocryphia to others. If I remember my hebrew school teachings correctly, there are elements of Proverbs, and some of the prophets, like parts of the the book of Daniel, that are considered outside the canon for us, but not for you.
Also, please note, to say that G-d cast aside the Jews is rude fallacy, bordering on heresy in both our faiths, I think. G-d made a covenant with the Jewish people, and G-d said that it would last for all time. Now, do you think G-d is a liar, and went back on his word? That he said, "Hey, this covenant thing is too inconvenient, I'll just shoot down there, die, and that'll be that?" Sounds like a writer's easy fix to a messy problem, eh? Paul must've been in a rush that day.
Every day, at least twice a day, Jews say the Shma. "Shma Yisrael, adonai elohaynu, adonai echad" or "Hear, O Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is ONE" Seems to preclude any sort of trinity, eh? It sure don't say "The L-rd is ONE, divided into three pieces."
And check out Deutoronomy, part of the canon for us both:
(Deut 4:39) Know this day, and lay it in your heart, that the L-rd is G-d, in the heavens above and on the earth below, there is none else."
Also, in Numbers, in regards to him setting aside the Jewish people:
(Numbers 23:19) "G-d is not a mortal that He should lie, not a man, the He should change His mind."
Set aside his people Israel? Drop the covenant he made with Abraham? Nope. Christianity has had a revisionist's tendencies since the beginning, trying to knock square pegs into round holes to make their religion fit. I'm surprised you only took issue on one of the multiple points I made. The fact remains, Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies associated with the Maschiach. I'm quite curious and interested to hear your thoughts on the other points I made.
There's another reason a Jew can't buy into Christianity; we were bluntly told to be on the lookout!
(Deut 13:2) "If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer, and he gives you a sign or a miracle. And the sign or miracle comes to pass, and he calls on you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us worship them.' You shall not listen to that prophet or dreamer. For G-d is testing you, to see whether you love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul."
Again, while I vehemently disagree with some of what you said, more power to you for having faith and belief. I'm not trying to diminish Christianity by any means, but pointing out some of it's inconsistencies to help explain why the New Testament might have inaccuracies, as well as why Jews have held onto our faith so tightly, in spite of attempts to convert us.
Ebonmuse,
Great post!!!! I totally agree with you even though I am Christian. Amazing how that works. The one thing you forgot to mention however, is that Science is also a religion that requires faith. There is nothing set in place to disprove that a God exists. So adding Science or evolution or Atheism to this equation means that we have to also cancel it out.
So then what is the conclusion. All things require faith, yet, their can only be one truth. WOW! I love this concept that God has put in place. If there is a God, one thing we must understand is that he is the creator and we are the created, thus, God can do as he/she/it pleases with logic and availability of proof for all things.
You mention different religions around the world that hold to their cultural religion. I find it more than interesting that Christianity is the major belief of the United States and yet we are the most powerful country. However, now that religion is slowly fading away in this great nation, our economy starts to crumble. Gibberish? maybe, but something worth investigation.
The bottom line is that everything requires faith and yet there is only one truth. Brilliant design by God to humble us and provoke us to investigate truth as this is what pleases God. Or, maybe it's all just a bunch of bologna and there is no God?? ?/?? If so, then we will never know the difference as we will just cease to exist and will nave no thought of it. On the other hand, we better present God with a great multitude of reasoning if he exists.
Ray says, "The many fulfilled prophecies (very detailed mind you) validate it as no other book can."
Ray! So many of those so called prophecies were written after the fact. Come on now! You're obviously an intelligent person. Surely you can see how that could have happened. You know human nature and peoples' agendas.
Let me ask you a question Ray:
Why do you want or need to believe? Why do you personally cling to such outrageous nonsense* so strongly? What would happen to you if you let it go?
(*I say nonsense not to insult or inflame but only to show how it all seems to me.)
Gatomjp, you say,
Let me ask you a question Ray:
Why do you want or need to believe? Why do you personally cling to such outrageous nonsense* so strongly? What would happen to you if you let it go?
You say it as matter of fact that Christianity is nonesense. You dont see your error in this? Your unbelief still takes faith. How can you explain your intelligence if you dont understand this basic principal??
Do you even know any of the prophecies that Ray speaks of? my guess is no, otherwise you would not have used the words, "so called prophesies" which sounds like a cop-out to me.
There are about 300 to 500 prophecies that have been fullfilled through Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
In 1969, a mathematician by the name of Peter W. Stoner (no he didnt smoke weed) gave his students only eight of the prophecies which were fulfilled:
– Born in Bethlehem
– Be preceded by a messenger
– Ride on a donkey
– Be betrayed by a friend
– Be betrayed by 30 pieces of silver
– Be betreyed by money used to purchase the potter's field
– Be silent as a lamb
– Have his hands and feet pierced
The class came up with a number. The probablility of one person's fulfilling eight of the old testaments prophecies would be one chance in 10^17 (that's a 10 followed by 17 zeroes).
I think there are a vast majority of people in this thread that are searching for the truth. They smoked some pot and became enlightened in there own imagination of what is truth. Or they were encouraged by a mentor that there is no God.
Small suggestion. Before shutting the doors and deaming God as a concept created by man, it would probably be an intelligent action to investigate the depths of not only Christianity, but other religions that might point towards a God existing.
A simple genuine call out to God in your own privacy. If God exists then he will hear you!
It is not a matter of wanting or needing to believe in God, it's wanting to know the truth. Afterall, it is the truth that truly sets us free. Gods law is freeedom from sin, sin is death.
I am as insane as Christ was, sometimes the truth is insane!!!!
WOW- you have yet to make a point. "wow dude" isnt meaningful. think real hard and get back to us with an opinion or idea of your own. thanks.
To grumpypilgrim:
Since you're the only one who responded to my posting I'll gladly respond to you. I don't conditionalize or question God's control, like it seems you do. Just to mention, the original story we all started posting to, I believe that God controls what gets preserved in written form, but He always shows each individual how His truth applies to each life He has created. I believe that God allows us to choose our destination, but He makes the destination possible in the first place.
I am still a weak human, as long as I consider myself separate from my Creator. I am a forgiven human as a follower of Jesus. That doesn't justify my sin, but it shows me who I should trust. Unlike your assumptions, I do not change my mind about God's control when something "bad" happens. I look at every event in my life as an opportunity to ask God what He is trying to teach me, including my mother's death, and countless other "tragedies". God uses things like cancer and other "pains" as a means to speak to our spirits, because that is what He is concerned about. These bodies we live in will turn to dust, or do you believe that you control "your" body, "your" existence? Pretty arrogant if you ask me. Do you think I have it "all" figured out? Not hardly…. I only know a small amount of a small amount of a …. but I know enough to know that I need to be told what truth is by the One who created me and you and everything we see. The problem you raise of proof that God is in control reveals the limitation of all human thinking. By proof I assume you mean something concrete that you can see and feel and touch (or point to). The problem is you are looking for a finite object to define the infinite One that all finite objects live inside of. Hence faith. Your body is still working… you are reading this post… you still have a chance to deny your selfishness and let God define you, instead of the other way around. It's tough from the unbelieving side to relinquish one's perceived control of one's existence, but once you do, you'll realize that God's Love heals all wounds.
And to Ray… keep up the loving discussion brother, but that one responder is right, try to speak from the heart God gave you and refrain from the Biblical lingo (at first). This generation needs to hear it in common terms. Just remember how/why Jesus spoke in parables. Quoting the Bible appears as authoritarian from an unbeliever's perspective. I know, I was once one too.
This is a post for those folks who have read the BIBLE but have not yet read the ENCYLOPEDIA (WOW this includes you).
Origin of Man: Homo habilis lived from about 2.4 to 1.5 million years ago (MYA). H. habilis, the first species of the genus Homo, evolved in South and East Africa in the late Pliocene or early Pleistocene, 2.5–2 Million Years Ago, when it diverged from the Australopithecines. H. habilis had smaller molars and larger brains than the Australopithecines, and made tools from stone and perhaps animal bones. One of the first known hominids, it was nicknamed 'handy man' by its discoverer, Louis Leakey.
Earth: often referred to as Terra, or Planet Earth) is the third planet in the solar system in terms of distance from the Sun, and the fifth largest. It is also the largest of its planetary system's terrestrial planets, making it the largest solid body in the solar system, and it is the only place in the universe known to support life. The widely accepted scientific theory states that the Earth was formed around 4.57 billion years ago[1] and its largest natural satellite, the Moon, was orbiting it shortly thereafter, around 4.53 billion years ago.
Please allow me to repeat myself, WOW.
Those "prophecies" were created AFTER Jesus was long gone in order to justify the claims of the writers of the bible that he was god. This is well known and historically documented.
I was raised Catholic, have studied the bible and Christ's teachings and have studied comparative religious theory at Temple U. I have attended Jehova's Witness meetings as an observer and have read the Talmud and the Bhagavad Gita. I also clearly stated that I used the word "nonsense" not to inflame but to describe how these fantastical stories (and they are quite absurd, you must admit) seem to me.
However, you are correct when you say that unbelief takes faith. For that I have my reasons, which I will be glad to tell you if you will answer the question I posed to Ray.
Why do you need to believe?
No religious person I have ever spoken will answer that question honestly without leaning on the bible and spouting quotations.
The first fossils of Homo erectus were discovered by Dutch physician Eugene Dubois in 1891 on the Indonesian island of Java. He originally gave the material the name Pithecanthropus erectus based on its morphology that he considered to be intermediate between that of humans and apes.
H. erectus lived from about 1.8 MYA to 70,000 years ago. Often the early phase, from 1.8 to 1.25 MYA, is considered to be a separate species, H. ergaster, or it is seen as a subspecies of erectus, Homo erectus ergaster.
In the Early Pleistocene, 1.5–1 MYA, in Africa, Asia, and Europe, presumably, Homo habilis evolved larger brains and made more elaborate stone tools; these differences and others are sufficient for anthropologists to classify them as a new species, H. erectus. In addition H. erectus was the first human ancestor to walk truly upright. This was made possible by the evolution of locking knees and a different location of the foramen magnum (the hole in the skull where the spine enters). They may have used fire to cook their meat.
(WIKIPEDIA:2006)HUMAN ORIGINS
WOW:
"Those questions are so ignorant.. WOW.”
The lowest and most desperate form of discourse, and generally the quickest way to discredit your position, is name calling. Please either answer my questions, or refrain from responding to them at all…
“Read my post above, because if there were 40 authors over 1600 years in three languages claiming the same thing about the Jello then maybe I would believe"
So your definition of something "real" is the number of people who write about it, how old it is, and how many languages it's written in? Following that logic, do you also believe the earth is flat, that there are sea dragons, and that the sun revolves around the earth?
The point I was trying to make is that there is no more evidence that your deity exists then a bowl of jello as your god. Or another way to look at it is there is exactly the same amount of evidence (none) that either or all exists.
Please, in the future, try to have more intellectual honesty in you assertions.
You may in fact be more insane than Christ was WOW!
WOW: That infinitesimal number for the probabillity of fulfilling a series of prophesies has some certain errors.
First of all, even if the probability of a particular randomly selected person in a randomly selected time matching any set of random criteria is infinitesimal, it becomes a much more approachable number by multiplying it by the total number of people over the total relevant amount of time. That gives you the chance of someone being "the one," which is the real issue.
Secondly, the chance of our subject matching any one of these criteria is not random. He was well aware of the prophecies, and he and his followers were avid to do what could be done to make sure he would match those that he wasn't born into.
Thirdly, as with most prophecies and horoscopes, most of the hundreds of specifics are very likely events. Did anyone in Judea at the time not ride a donkey? Has anyone reading this not been betrayed in some way by a friend?
It's easy to lie with numbers if you frame a question just right, and show only results to the largely innumerate audience. I wish that a course in probability and statistics were required for high school graduation. We'd have a much less gullible populace that way.
Gatomjp:
The prophecies could not have been written after the fact. I will quote from Josh McDowell's excellent book "Evidence that demands a verdict":
"The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, was initiated in the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-246 B.C.). It is rather obvious that if you have a Hebrew translation initiated in 250 B.C., then you had to have the Hebrew text from which it was written. This will suffice to indicate that there was AT LEAST a 250-year gap between the prophecies being written down and their fulfillment in the person of Christ."
You said:
"Why do you want or need to believe? Why do you personally cling to such outrageous nonsense* so strongly? What would happen to you if you let it go?"
When you see the truth, why would you want to close you eyes from it? I understand those that don't believe because of:
1) They prefer their sin to truth. They don't want to change their way of life. Therefore by this rebellion, God has hidden the truth from their eyes.
2) They are ignorant of the truth because:
a) aren't interested
b) are too lazy
c) haven't heard it yet
But know this, all will be held to account for how much they knew and what they did or didn't do about it.
Well put, MrTitanium.
So there MUST be a very strong NEED to believe despite all of the common sense that undermines the veracity of the bible. Where does this need come from? What do you think, MrTitanium? I await the replies of any of the true believers who are brave enough to search their souls and psyche.
I sincerely apologize if my statements seem belittling to anyone's religious convictions. I honestly seek to understand what drives faith.
LOL, very well Titan! Errors that are manifested in your imagination of a conspiracy. What is it these days with all the conspiracy theories. Is nothing the truth anymore?
If by gullible populace you are referring to me being gullible, then that is an attack. So why attack? Is it becasue you are not confident in your assertion of faith that the bible is innacurate?
Boy Jesus and his deciples really scammed us with the 400+ prophecies that they pulled off. WOW! I guess you will have to agree that Jesus was a pretty amazing person then? But that's not worth investigating right?
probability and statistics I aced! So I guess my gullibility spans much further than that of a lack of statistics in high school. I do have a college degree. Do you? Just wondering. If so great! Just asking because you brought this conversation to a high shcool level in your ending statements, "I wish that a course in probability and statistics were required for high school graduation. We’d have a much less gullible populace that way."
"The One", like the matrix. You are the one in your own freedom to practice freewill! Awesome!
You say this: He was well aware of the prophecies, and he and his followers were avid to do what could be done to make sure he would match those that he wasn’t born into.
Well, your right he was born in Bethlehem, so unless these guys were as intelligent as the rugrats, I doubt they pulled off that one. How about the people who crucified Christ, were they in on it too? Afterall they crucified him becasue they wanted to prove that he wasn't God. HMMMM…….. I guess Jesus kindly asked them to pierce his hands, feet, and side, so that he could also fulfill this prophecy. That was nice of them to oblige.
People dont believe because they dont want to. Even if God apeared before them, they would still not believe. God gave man free will. How about that. If God didn't give man free will then we wouldn't be having this conversation, or maybe we would be complaining about how God just made a bunch of robots. The problem is that too many people try and think like God (which is impossible). Can a 2 year old think like you? We are infants compared to God.
Hey man, I am not here to say that my way is the right way, or that I am absolutley right about Christianity becasue that is my personal belief. I am here to be objective and give all people a few things that perhaps they haven't thought of. I am intelligent enought to know how stupid and ignorant I am. But there are a lot of people in this post that think they are the end all of knowledge, and this is the saddest realization I have had joining this chat.
Here is a perspective:
Why are Atheists so into disproving Christianity. Do Christians live a bad life? If I was an Atheist, I would never discuss religion as long as I lived as this would be a waste of my time. So I must logically wonder if Atheists are truly agnostic????????
Gullibility goes both ways my friend. I hope it is ok to call you that.
The mormons are the most delusional of them ALL. I love how there are a bunch of mormons saying the book of mormon said this and that blah blah blah. that came from some dude who supposedly talked to god and then wrote it down, only to have it destroyed and was unable to copy it again word for word. if it was god talking to him, that wouldnt have been an issue. Not only that, but how can you take that as true when it came from a HUMAN. you are just going to take john smiths word for it that god came down and told him everything he needed to know? come on, go to school or something, tell mom that the homeschooling is brainwashing you, or better yet, have a cup of coffee to get those neurons you are neglecting to work.
remember, the angel that appeared to john smiths name was moroni, but calling them Morons wouldnt be nice i suppose………
Has anyone here read "Religion Explained"?
That book is an anthropological/sociological/psychological examination of the evolution of all man's religions (except, of course, for your one true faith). There's lots of good stuff in there about how and why people believe all sorts of things.
But it does not cover textual criticism, the root of this post that seems to have gotten lost a way back.
With the end of the world at hand, the main concern should be if you believe in love, God created us, and Jesus died for us to get to heaven. Wether the bible was true or not there are always human errors in this world and we need to listen to our hearts instead of just our heads. I myself know in my heart there is erros in the bible, but the fact remains beyond that- there is a God and he is love.
All these things have been answered over and over and over again. Here is a short list of some website for your review:
Science:
http://www.icr.org/ http://drdino.com/ http://www.ldolphin.org/index.html http://www.khouse.org/
Jewish:
http://www.ariel.org/
Mormonism:
http://www.mrm.org/
Other:
http://www.thebereancall.org/
If you have any other group not on this list, let me know. There are many resources available.
While we are still arguing, we might as well learn some of the facts. Here is an excerpt from the encylopedia, a trusted source of knowledge in the modern, educated world.
Evolution has left numerous records which reveal the history of different species. Fossils, together with the comparative anatomy of present-day plants and animals, constitute the morphological, or anatomical, record. By comparing the anatomies of both modern and extinct species, paleontologists can infer the lineages of those species. Important fossil evidence includes the connection of distinct classes of organisms by so-called "transitional" species, such as the Archaeopteryx, which provided early evidence for intermediate species between dinosaurs and birds, and the recently-discovered Tiktaalik, which clarifies the development from fish to animals with four limbs. Therefore there is no God.
(Encylopedia Britannica) —
ps. I added that last little part.
Excellent comment, MrTitanium! Indeed, biblical prophesies consist of vague "predictions" that could be "fulfilled" by a wide variety of people. Today's "fortune tellers" use similar methods to convince audiences that they also can foretell the future.
What I would like to know is why biblical "prophesy" has never included anything concrete and verifiable. For example, why doesn’t the Bible ever mention that 1800 years after Jesus dies, scientists will discover dinosaur fossils that will contradict the Genesis creation story? Why doesn't it mention that the earth is not the center of the solar system (much less the center of the universe), or that planets revolve in elliptical (not circular) orbits, or that boiling water will make it safe to drink, or that disease is carried by viruses and bacteria and not by evil spirits? Why didn’t God put just one previously unknown scientific fact into the Bible — something that would be verifiable — just to tip us off that He really does know everything? Forget all the stuff about the miracles that Jesus supposedly performed and prophesies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled; it would have been far more compelling if Jesus had taught people how to do calculus, how to forge steel or how to harness electricity.
Or even just mention that there was a whole new continent to be discovered by sailing west. Instead, the Bible tells fanciful stories that can never be substantiated about Jesus walking on water and turning water into wine — tricks that any magician of the time could have easily replicated. Just think of how many more faithful followers God might have created if we could open the Bible and find Newton’s law of gravitation, or the atomic structure of a carbon atom, or Einstein's E=mc^2, or an explanation of how the pyramids of Egypt were built, or even something very simple, like how to perform cardio-pulmonary resuscitation. I bet there’d be a lot more people striving to follow the Bible if God had used it to tip us off to some solutions for natural mysteries that could be confirmed, instead of just supernatural ones that cannot.
Forget the alleged "300 to 500 prophecies that have been fullfilled through Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection," show me a Bible that describes how to cure Alzheimer's disease, or how to design a lift-producing wing…or a laser…or a transistor…or artificial blood…or neural tissue that doesn't require embryonic stem cells…. Heck, just a recipe for aspirin would have helped prevent centuries of human suffering. Of all the things that God could have put into the Bible to persuade us that He exists, that He is omniscient, and that He loves us, His choice — scores of vague prophesies — sure doesn't make much sense.
That is an interesting statistic that you bring up!!!!!
Un-Educated Scholar Says:
Percent of Americans who Believe in GOD (or other dieties) = 87%
Percent of High School Graduates who Believe in GOD = 65%
Percent of College Graduates who Believe in GOD = 51%
I am part of the group which has been "enlightened" by education.
I used to believe in GOD, but after learning so much wonderful stuff in college, I now am free of HIS bonds.
Its like having a Halloween mummy, and for every bit of knowledge that you gain, you unravel one thread of the Mummies wrap. After some time, you will see that there is nothing inside of the wrap. In this case the mummy symbolizes ANY religion.
And, before you ask about atheists again, I will assure you that THIS atheist is not afraid of any heaven/hell junk and nor should you. The choice to do good deeds and make the best of your life is up to you, and you better do it…cuz there sure aint no life after worms. 🙂
I believe in God, this is why….
The development of molecular genetics, and particularly of DNA sequencing, has allowed biologists to study the record of evolution left in the organisms' genetic structures. The degree of similarity and difference in the DNA sequences of modern species allows geneticists to reconstruct their lineages. It is from DNA sequence comparisons that figures such as the 95% similarity between humans and chimpanzees are obtained.
Additional evidence of ancestry includes idiosyncratic structures present in certain organisms, such as the panda's "thumb", which indicate how an organism's evolutionary lineage constrains its adaptive development. Vestigial structures such as the vestigial limbs on pythons or the degenerate eyes of blind cave-dwelling fish are also evidences of evolutionary development.
Other evidence used to demonstrate evolutionary lineages includes the geographical distribution of species. For instance, monotremes, such as platypus, and most marsupials, like kangaroos or koalas, are found only in Australia showing that their common ancestor with placental mammals lived before the submerging of the ancient land bridge between Australia and Asia.
Hi Grumpy,
You said that:
"Forget the alleged “300 to 500 prophecies that have been fullfilled through Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection,” show me a Bible that describes how to cure Alzheimer’s disease, or how to design a lift-producing wing…or a laser…or a transistor…or artificial blood…or neural tissue that doesn’t require embryonic stem cells…. Heck, just a recipe for aspirin would have helped prevent centuries of human suffering. Of all the things that God could have put into the Bible to persuade us that He exists, that He is omniscient, and that He loves us, His choice — scores of vague prophesies — sure doesn’t make much sense."
I here ya! The bible covers everything you have stated. The purpose for Jesus to perform miracles was to show that he is God. If God was to give us all of mans creative inventions, then we would not be a fallen world. The key is that we are fallen and we deserve death, and death we will surely arrive to before you know it. Jesus offered the cure for death. I know it sounds absurd, but, what sounds even more absurd is the idea that mother nature is alive and well with an IQ higher than all of ours put together (which is what it would take for this whole existence of man to even be possible).
Look if I am wrong about God and Christ's message, then I will never know the difference after I am gone. If you are wrong……………..well………then we will know for sure that you were wrong!!!!!!!!!!
I think that intelligence is a wonderful thing.
Why do we enjoy sex so much? Why does it feel so good? I guess evolution made it that way………………. 😉
Why do we have tears?? Why dont animals??? Why does it feel so good after we cry and get things off our chest. Thank you evolution!
If you look at the Tower of babel in the Bible, God said that he stopped man from continuing to build by confusing there languages. God then says that he did this because of what he knows man is capable of accomlishing. Does this mean God was scared, absolutely not. It means that God is the Creator of man and knows what man is capable of. God has a right to interfere and/or disrupt our lives; HE IS GOD.
I am speaking from my heart and I know it means nothing to you, but, the things you have said mean something to me! Thank you for your words and thoughts!!!!!!