Who changed the Bible and why? Bart Ehrman’s startling answers
October 22nd, 2006 by Erich ViethHow often do we hear people “explaining” religious beliefs by stating ”The Bible says so,” as if the Bible fell out of the sky, pre-translated to English by God Himself? It’s not that simple, according to an impressive and clearly-written book that should be required reading for anyone who claims to know “what the Bible says.”
The 2005 bestseller, Misquoting Jesus, was not written by a raving atheist. Rather, it was written by a fellow who had a born-again experience in high school, then went on to attend the ultraconservative Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. Bart Ehrman didn’t stop there, however. He wanted to become an evangelical voice with credentials that would enable him to teach in secular settings. It was for this reason that he continued his education at Wheaton and, eventually, Princeton, picking up the ability to read the New Testament in its original Greek in the process.
As a result of his disciplined study, Ehrman increasingly questioned the fundamentalist approach that the “Bible is the inerrant Word of God. It contains no mistakes.” Through his studies, Ehrman determined that the Bible was not free of mistakes:
We have only error ridden copies, and the vast majority of these are centuries removed from the originals and different from them, evidently, in thousands of ways.
(Page 7). At Princeton, Ehrman learned that mistakes had been made in the copying of the New Testament over the centuries. Upon realizing this, “the floodgates opened.” In Mark 4, for example, Jesus allegedly stated that the mustard seed is “the smallest of all seeds on the earth.” Ehrman knew that this simply was not true. The more he studied the early manuscripts, the more he realized that the Bible was full of contradictions. For instance, Mark writes that Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal (Mark 14:12; 15:25) while John says Jesus died the day before the Passover meal (John 19:14).
Ehrman often heard that the words of the Bible were inspired. Obviously, the Bible was not originally written in English. Perhaps, suggests Ehrman, the full meaning and nuance of the New Testament could only be grasped when it was read in its original Greek (and the Old Testament could be fully appreciated only when studied in its original Hebrew) (page 6).
Because of these language barriers and the undeniable mistakes and contradictions, Ehrman realized that the Bible could not be the “fully inspired, inerrant Word of God.” Instead, it appeared to him to be a “very human book.” Human authors had originally written the text at different times and in different places to address different needs. Certainly, the Bible does not provide an an “errant guide as to how we should live. This is the shift in my own thinking that I ended up making, and to which I am now fully committed.”
How pervasive is the belief that the Bible is inerrant, that every word of the Bible is precise and true?
Occasionally I see a bumper sticker that reads: “God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.” My response is always, what if God didn’t say it? What if the book you take as giving you God’s words instead contains human words. What if the Bible doesn’t give a foolproof answer to the questions of the modern age-abortion, women’s rights, gay rights, religious and supremacy, western style democracy and the like? What if we have to figure out how to live and what to believe on our own, without setting up the Bible as a false idol–or an oracle that gives us a direct line of communication with the Almighty.
(Page 14). Ehrman continues to appreciate the Bible as an important collection of writings, but urges that it needs to be read and understood in the context of textual criticism, “a compelling and intriguing field of study of real importance not just to scholars but to everyone with an interest in the Bible.” Ehrman finds it striking that most readers of the Bible know almost nothing about textual criticism. He comments that this is not surprising, in that very few books have been written about textual criticism for a lay audience (namely, “those who know nothing about it, who don’t have the Greek and other languages necessary for the in-depth study of it who do not realize there is even any “problem” with the text).
Misquoting Jesus provides much background into how the Bible became the Bible. It happened through numerous human decisions over the centuries. For instance, the first time any Christian of record listed the 27 books of the New Testament as the books of the New Testament was 300 years after the books have been written (page 36). And those works have been radically altered over the years at the hands of the scribes “who were not only conserving scripture but also changing it.” Ehrman points out that most of the hundreds of thousands of textual changes found among the manuscripts were “completely insignificant, immaterial, of no real importance.” In short, they were innocent mistakes involving misspelling or inadvertence.
On the other hand, the very meaning of the text changed in some instances. Some Bible scholars have even concluded that it makes no sense to talk about the “original” text of the Bible. (Page 210). As a result of studying surviving Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, Ehrman concluded that we simply don’t have the original words constituting the New Testament.
Not only do we not have the originals, we don’t have the first copies of the originals. We don’t even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later-much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, and many thousands of places . . . Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts and there are words in the New Testament.
In Misquoting Jesus Bart Ehrman spells out the ways in which several critical passages of the New Testament were changed or concocted. They are startling examples:
A.) Everyone knows the story about Jesus and the woman about to be stoned by the mob. This account is only found in John 7:53-8:12. The mob asked Jesus whether they should stone the woman (the punishment required by the Old Testament) or show her mercy. Jesus doesn’t fall for this trap. Jesus allegedly states “Let the one who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.” The crowd dissipates out of shame. Ehrman states that this brilliant story was not originally in the Gospel of John or in any of the Gospels. “It was added by later scribes.” The story is not found in “our oldest and best manuscripts of the Gospel of John. Nor does its writing style comport with the rest of John. Most serious textual critics state that this story should not be considered part of the Bible (page 65).
B) after Jesus died, Mary Magdalene and two other women came back to the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus, according to Mark 16:1-2). They were met by a man in a white robe who told them that Jesus had been raised and was no longer there. The women fled and said nothing more to anyone out of fear (16:4-8). Everyone knows the rest of Mark’s Gospel, of course. The problem with the remainder of the story is that none of it was originally in the Gospel of Mark. It was added by a later scribe. Those additions include all of the following:
Jesus himself appeared to Mary Magdalene. She told the eleven apostles (minus Judas) about this vision, but they did not believe her. Jesus then appeared to the apostles, chastising them for failing to believe. He tells them that those who believe will be saved and those who don’t will be condemned. Then follows a critically important passage of the Bible.
And these are the signs that will accompany those who believe: they will cast out demons in my name; they will speak in new tongues; and they will take up snakes in their hands; and if they drink any poison, it will not harm them; they will place their hands upon the sick and heal them.
Jesus is then allegedly taken up into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, while the disciples go forth into the world to proclaim the Gospel in miraculous fashion.
Without the above passages (which, again, were not written by Mark) the Pentecostals lose their justification for speaking in “tongues.” And the Appalachian snake handlers have no basis for their dangerous practices.
C) John 5:7-8 is the only passage in the entire Bible “that explicitly delineates the doctrine of the Trinity (that there are three persons and God but that all three constitute a single God):
There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Spirit and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.
Ehrman cites strong evidence that this Trinity passage was entirely concocted and foisted upon Erasmus by outraged theologians who needed support for their prized theological doctrine (page 81).
–
Ehrman reveals numerous other difficulties with the popular assumption that the Bible was perfectly handed down from its original written expression.
Many believers rely fervently on the King James version of the Bible, for instance. They sometimes even say “If the King James was good enough for St. Paul, it’s good enough for me.” Ehrman points out many problems with the King James version, warning that “we need to face up to the facts.”
The King James was not given by God but was a translation by a group of scholars in the early 17th century who based their rendition on a faulty Greek text.
(Page 209).
So what should we make of the Bible? Ehrman argues that the attacks of the New Testament are not simply collections of obvious, self-interpreting words. It’s the same problem we have with other important documents, such as the United States Constitution:
Texts do not simply reveal their own meanings to honest inquirers. Texts are interpreted and they are interpreted (just as they were written) by living, breathing human beings, who can make sense of texts only by explaining them in light of other other knowledge, explicating their meaning, putting the words of the text “in other words.”
(Page 217) The scribes changed the original words of the New Testament by putting them in other words.
In my experience, many people who cherry pick excerpts from the Bible as the proper way to determine what is moral are in utter denial that we don’t have accurate copies of the original writings. Most of them refuse to acknowledge that current popular versions of the Bible contain numerous discrepancies, even compared to the earliest manuscripts we do have. This is on top of the fact that their are hundreds of patent contradictions in the English version of the Bible. To most believers, none of this matters. Stay the course! In fact, in my experience most believers rarely read what the consider to be God’s own inspired word.
Ehrman’s book points out numerous troublesome issues that demand attention even assuming that the original writers of the Bible accurately reported the events described in their original writings (whatever those writings were). The elephant in the room, however, is that none of the authors of the Gospels ever claimed to witness any of the events they were reporting. Further, the extraodinary nature of Biblical claims demands extraordinary proof that ancient self-contradictory writings are simply incapable of providing, except to those of us who believe that the Bible is completely true “because it says so in the Bible.”
For all of those people who continue to go around clentching and thumping those Bibles they bought at Wal-Mart, and for all the rest of us who want to get the story straight, Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus should be required reading.
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October 22nd, 2006 at 10:27 am
“…the Bible was full of contradictions. For instance, Mark writes that Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal (Mark 14:12; 15:25) while John says Jesus died the day before the Passover meal (John 19:14).”
From E.W. Bullinger’s Companion Bible, commentary on Mark 15:25: “25 the third hour. Of the day (John 11:9), i.e. 9 a.m. No discrepancy; for the sixth hour of John 19:14 was the sixth hour of the night (from about sunset), viz. “about” midnight (in the midst of the trial), when Pilate said “Behold your King”. The context there and here explains and settles the matter. Here, the trial was over; in John 19:14 the trial was going on. It was the hour of the morning sacrifice.”
October 22nd, 2006 at 10:27 am
It’s not common knowledge, as its not taught in the West, but in the Near East it’s common knowledge that the bible was NOT written in Greek but in Aramaic. Some would have us believe the the Peshitta was translated from Greek when that is ridiculous.
I would suggest all read any works by George Lamsa. He was born an Assyrian and spoke Aramaic. The Assyrian church of the East has their bible in Aramaic and predates any Greek version of the bible. The common people of Galilee never learned to speak, let alone write in Greek. What causes so much confusion with the ‘original’ greek transalation is the obvious copying of the Aramaic idioms (figures of speech) that makes no sense in Greek. Even the learned jews of Palestine had a difficult time understanding the dialect of Galileans. Jesus said “you must be born again” to Nicodemus and he was not familiar with that common figure of speech.
The Greek language was the lingua franca of government and officials but so was French 40 years ago and I would ask how many common people in America speek and read and write in French?
The west knows very little of the Near east and the real history of the Peshitta. It predates the latin vulgate by 200 hundred years.
I encourage others to find the truth and to not accept western scholars decision that the Peshitta was translated from Greek.
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/
October 22nd, 2006 at 10:33 am
“Everyone knows the story about Jesus and the woman about to be stoned by the mob. This account is only found in John 7:53-8:12. The mob asked Jesus whether they should stone the woman (the punishment required by the Old Testament) or show her mercy. Jesus doesn’t fall for this trap. Jesus allegedly states ‘Let the one who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.’ The crowd dissipates out of shame. Ehrman states that this brilliant story was not originally in the Gospel of John or in any of the Gospels. ‘It was added by later scribes.’ The story is not found in ‘our oldest and best manuscripts of the Gospel of John. Nor does its writing style comport with the rest of John. Most serious textual critics state that this story should not be considered part of the Bible.”
From E.W. Bullinger’s Companion Bible, commentary on John 7:52: “52 see. If they had looked, they would have found that Jonah and Hosea arose out of Galilee, and perhaps Elijah, Elisha, and Amos. From 7:53—8:11 is omitted by some of the older Manuscripts. WH place it in double brackets at the end of the Gospel, &c. It is contained in the Vulgate, and is found in many Greek and Latin Codices. &c. We may ask: How is it that all the MSS. which do contain it (including 300 Cursives) agree in placing it here? It was another attempt following on 7:32, and referred to in 8:15.”
October 22nd, 2006 at 10:43 am
“Everyone knows the rest of Mark’s Gospel, of course. The problem with the remainder of the story is that none of it was originally in the Gospel of Mark.
[...]
[w]ithout the above passages (which, again, were not written by Mark)…”
From E.W. Bullinger’s Companion Bible:
http://companionbiblecondensed.com
Excerpts from Appendix 168 which can be read at: http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com/AP/Ap_list.htm
…regarding the last 12 verses of Mark 16:
“As to MANUSCRIPTS, there are none older than the fourth century, and the oldest two I. unical Manuscripts (B and, see Appendix 94. V.) are without those twelve verses. Of all the others (consisting of some eighteen unicals and some six hundred cursive Manuscripts which contain the Gospel of Mark there is not one which leaves out these twelve verses.
[...]
There are nearly a hundred ecclesiastical writers older than the oldest of our Greek codices; while between A.D. 300 and A.D. 600 there are about two hundred more, and they all refer to these twelve verses.
[...]
When later transcribers of the Greek manuscripts came to the last twelve verses of Mark, and saw no trace of such spiritual gifts in existence, they concluded that there must be something doubtful about the genuineness of these verses. Hence, some may have marked them as doubtful, some as spurious, while others omitted them altogether. A phenomenon of quite an opposite kind is witnessed in the present day.”
October 22nd, 2006 at 10:51 am
“For all of those people who continue to go around clentching and thumping those Bibles they bought at Wal-Mart, and for all the rest of us who want to get the story straight, Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus should be required reading.”
With all due respect, from the few actual citations listed from Ehrman’s book, a quick cross examination with E.W. Bullinger’s Companion Bible refutes each of Ehrman’s analyses.
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:18 am
I’m a little tired of these textual critics popping up every once in a while with repeated accusations that were already answered many times.
The Holy Spirit teaches and gives understanding to those who are His. Why should He do likewise for the corrupt?
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:37 am
He had to go to Princeton to realize that the bible was not written/dictated by God? Sheesh! I think Dawkin’s would find this article amusing.
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:38 am
Oops I should have written Dawkins. As in Richard Dawkins, author of “The God Delusion”
October 22nd, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Why does the text of 19th century King James textual interpreter and apologist E. W. Bullinger trump the interpretations of subsequent scholars who studied more versions of the bible, and many earlier texts than Bullinger had access to, as well as Bullinger’s notes and those of hundreds of other scholars?
In Bullinger’s time, there were maybe 100 known scraps of biblical text from before the Council of Nicaea determined which gospels to include and which to repress. Now there are thousands of fragments, many nearly complete copies of the original first century letters, cataloged and available to scholars.
If one is of the “King James IS the Bible” school (like Bullinger), no amount of citations from earlier works will affect your opinion or interpretation. Thus the scientifically based, yet faithful, examinations of Ehrman and the few hundred others currently engaged in this sort of study (usually for the church, not against it) won’t cause any more reflection than any other conflict between direct examination and true faith.
Those of us who believe that confirmable evidence trumps internal revelations don’t feel a conflict in noting the many different types of Christianity based on differing interpretations of the variety of translations from some of the many unmatching transcriptions of the group of letters, stories, and revelations (hallucinations?) comprising the one true and inerrant text.
October 22nd, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Anyone who believes in the bible is mentally ill.
I cannot understand how anyone can believe this crap
and justify all of the contradictions. E.W. Bullinger’s Companion Bible
is just garbage too.
October 22nd, 2006 at 12:51 pm
There is Quran
It may sound out of topic, however, that’s exactly what Quran or Islam says. In Islam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are all human beings like us but special in that they are the messengers of God (In Islam, God is commonly referred to as Allah, although he has 99 names bearing various qualities). According to Quran, Moses and Jesus received God’s instructions similarly as what Muhammad had received; however, the previous books became corrupted over time. Furthermore, since Muhammad was the last messenger before the end of the world, God promised to save Quran from corruption.
No flames please. Just wanted to share a perspective—that’s it. I’m a muslim and I fully respect Judaism and Christianity.
I request you to visit sites that have Quran online such as this http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/, and go read it to get a better idea about it.
October 22nd, 2006 at 1:36 pm
To the Muslim (and all others):
According to your teachings, you have no assurance to heaven. In Christianity, you can have this assurance. All people come short of the standard of perfection, except for one - Jesus Christ. He is the benchmark. You can have His standard applied to you by believing in Him.
October 22nd, 2006 at 1:54 pm
So, who wrote the bible in its current form? why isn’t there an original?
October 22nd, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Ah, Ray, just couldn’t pass up a chance to proselytize could we. Join Christianity and you’ll be pre-approved for Heaven(TM)!
Besides, everybody knows Muslims can be guaranteed entrance to heaven. You just have to die defending the faith.
October 22nd, 2006 at 2:32 pm
It hardly seems so, Ray. True, John 3:16 states that anyone who believes in Jesus will go to heaven, but the Bible seems to disagree with itself on this. In fact, Jesus himself says many different things about how to get into heaven. Some of the things Jesus says you “must” do to attain eternal life include:
-Love your neighbor as yourself (Luke 10: 25-28)
-Sell everything you own and give all of your money to the poor (Luke 18:18-22)
-Give up everything in your life, including all relationships to members of your family, friends, etc, and follow Jesus as a disciple (Luke 14:26-33)
-Take Communion (or as Jesus puts it, “eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood) (John 6: 53-54)
-Become “like a little child” (Matthew 18:2-3)
-Have righteousness surpassing that of the Pharises and the teachers of law, in other words, follow all 613 laws of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-20)
Among several others. The Why Won’t God Heal Amputees website has a decent presentation of these contradictory rules: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video1.htm
October 22nd, 2006 at 2:38 pm
Of course Jesus (or Isa in Arabic) is exemplary and one of the benchmarks. That’s why he was chosen even before he was born. The problem, according to Islam, is that way the one and only God wanted us to know Him, worship Him, and carry out our everyday actions has been distorted over time. One example is the nature of God—in Quran, God says He is singular and doesn’t have any son or any parents or any siblings. And Jesus was a messenger and a human being.
However, I understand your point Ray. Since you believe Jesus actually died and became alive again which no human being except God can do, Jesus is the God. It’s all about belief after all. Besides, once you decide not to ask questions or explore for the truth, it’s very hard even to check another doctrine or idea.
No offense please.
October 22nd, 2006 at 3:07 pm
Erika,
All your Bible quotes should be taken in context of the point being made in each teaching. In the Christian walk is an internal transformation, daily progressing as you learn more of our Creator’s heart and thoughts. Rules and regulations won’t get you there. But putting on Jesus will.
Andrew,
You said:
Join Christianity and you’ll be pre-approved for Heaven. This comment ios hardly worth a response. I think you know what I meant. The Bible give us assurance as no other book of eternal life of joy, peace and love. To reject Christ is an eternal existence of misery and darkness and pain. For in rejecting God, you reject all the goodness that He provides.
October 22nd, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Ray, I see what you mean- maybe we don’t need to meet each minute requirement. But what you said- that we must remain in a state of constant improvement as part of a “Christian Walk”- contradicts what you said earlier. Doesn’t believing in Christ get you into heaven? I don’t believe any Bible passage commands that we enter into a state of constant transformation, either.
October 22nd, 2006 at 4:04 pm
No offense taken aMuslim. I think you are honest in your thoughts. I challenge you to read some of the New Testament books (a good place to start is John) and see what your thoughts are afterwards.
October 22nd, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Funny enough Ray, but the Quran makes mention of previous prophets, including Jesus.
Get educated. Read ‘No God but God’. You’ll enjoy it.
October 22nd, 2006 at 4:32 pm
#1 Ehrman is a historian - not a theologian nor a philosopher. He is building on the arguements of others and nothing he says is original to him. He has scavenged other sources and is repeating century old problems with the Bible. These answers are not startling nor are they new.
#2 Ehrman studied under Elaine Pagels at Princton and if you have read her material you would see the heavy influence. I am only saying that Ehrman himself believes in “authority”. Authority is the idea that some “voice” (professor, scholar, priest, etc…) has the authority to instruct us. Only ignorant people can’t admit their beliefs came from some other source.
#3 Ehrman has no conclusive system. Dr. Ehrman when he speaks cannot connect the various methods used to critique the text to establish a uniform reality. In other words he claims a position of objective scientific authority but he depends on materialist naturalism for the descreet textual arguments. Suddenly in conclusion he makes ‘existential leaps’ to come to his ultimate conclusions. If he is being intellectually honest he would depend on one approach (materialism or existentialism) and not leap back and forth. Look for this in his time with Terri Gross on Fresh Air http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5052156.
#4 The Bible itself claims complete authority over all knowledge - this is true of Judaism and Christianity. I understand this is a wild claim to have exclusive authority over all knowledge - but that’s what the book says. Psalm 19:7 “The law of the Lord is perfect”. Things which are perfect lack nothing and do not need to be added to. This is only one of many verses which speak of the Bible in exclusive authoritative terms.
#5 Jesus himself says in John 14 that knowledge and truth are relational - not simply ideas that people think. In fact he goes as far as saying that if you don’t believe in him that God is not obligated to make you understand; “21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Do you see the “show myself” - that means you don’t know until he shows you.
#6 Christians do not believe that intelligence (or knowledge) is something you are born with or that you can sit by yourself and somehow come to the knowledge of things (this would be positivism). Nor do Christians believe that the world is cut off from the spiritual and everthing must be learned exclusively through the scientific method (scientism). We believe that knowing comes from God alone - this is really the only way we come to know anything. God SHOWS it to us (disclosure).
#7 Christ disclosed himself to mankind because of his Love for us. This is clear in the Gospel texts. To attack the text and claim lack of validity is to avoid this confrontation - What do I do with the real Jesus.
October 22nd, 2006 at 4:45 pm
Muslims in the East respect the bible as written in Aramaic for a reason. Find out why.
http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/
October 22nd, 2006 at 5:21 pm
Heaven isn’t something that should be granted easily to someone just for believing in someone. You have to earn it.
October 22nd, 2006 at 6:00 pm
Adam,
So how do you earn it? By faith. That is the one thing required of you. By faith, works will be the natural result. Belief encompasses many things. By believing, you are putting your trust in it. You are putting your faith in it.
October 22nd, 2006 at 6:11 pm
Ray, you have got to be kidding…..
Let’s be serious,
I hate to burst your bubble, but it’s better for you to wake up sooner then later, and I can sorely tell you this out of my own experience. I have been a believer (born-again dreamer) for years and realised more and more that church is all nice and fun but they are also a bunch of hypocrites coming together.
I know it’s hard to wake up (it was and is for me) and as a good former christian I am willing to help you…
Greetings,
Koendert,
Netherlands
October 22nd, 2006 at 6:17 pm
As I read nowhereman’s comment, I mentally replaced words such as “God,” “Jesus,” “Lord,” “Father,” etc., with the words “unicorn” or “Flying Green Spaghetti Monster,” and I noticed that the text made just as much sense.
Personally, I think the Quran’s description of God makes a lot more sense than the Bible’s — as aMuslim says, “[God] is singular and doesn’t have any son or any parents or any siblings. And Jesus was a messenger and a human being.”
If God is a supreme being, then why would he not be singular and why would he need offspring? Moreover if God wanted to absolve the human race of its sins, then why go through the time-consuming process of fathering a son, raising the son to adulthood, having the son be crucified, then raising the son from the dead, etc. — why not just skip all that nonsense and simply absolve the human race of its sins? Christians seem to take it for granted that God needed a human sacrifice, but why should that be necessary?
More likely, the use of a human sacrifice made Christianity more palatable to pagan cultures that had their own myths involving animal or human sacrifice. Thus, the earthly sacrifice of “God’s son” makes more sense as a literary convenience than as a theological necessity.
October 22nd, 2006 at 6:27 pm
I am surprised to see that this supposed specialist was talking about the New Testament in Greek.
Did Jesus speak Greek?
No, he spoke aramaic, and the apostles spoke aramaic as well.
So I guess this gentleman needs to go further in his studies…to the original language of the New Testament: aramaic.
Zbdakufitir
October 22nd, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Whee! Lets spend all our time discussing a made up book! Yay!
There are no muslims in the world. The prophet (blessed be his name) said that all that adhere to his teachings are muslims, and no others. The punishment for straying from his teachings is basically death (if that’s not in the books, well, someone will just issue a fatwa, so either way it’s a practical reality). Way back when, he decreed that a Caliph (Khalifa) be elected by the people, with a fresh election each time the old one died. One dude died, and instead of a fresh election, his son was nominated. Some other dude got killed (which is why we have Shiites and Sunnis, and a bunch of people run around whipping themselves in the streets on a certain day) and the electoral process never came back.
Wham! Right there, practically all of dar-al-Islam disobeyed the prophet’s teachings, and cast them by the wayside (for all practical purposes, as no elected Khalifa has since arisen).
Ergo, there are no muslims.
Babble on, children.
October 22nd, 2006 at 6:35 pm
What a load of cow dung. The New Testament is the most well document ancient text in HISTORY. Literally thousands of copies exist that differ from each other less than 1%, and that 1% is grammatical and not contextual.
Yeesh.
Vic
October 22nd, 2006 at 7:15 pm
A quick summary of the whole desert religion brigade.
Buncha people get a prophet, he leads them around for a while, performing random commandments from Gods (kill your son, cross a sea, wee only after you’ve cut off the end of your pecker). (I made that last one up).
They find a home, settle down, make a buncha money, have a rich temple.
Guy comes along, says, hey, let’s tear down this temple and start afresh cos I spoke to God yestiddy and he told me my Mom’s a virgin.
They kill him.
A few hundred years later, in desert, another dude comes along, says, hey you know that guy they killed? Well he was God’s only son, but I’m his last prophet (promise, there won’t be any after me) and now I say, let’s kill all those other dudes who believe in the earlier son, cos they don’t believe in me and I’m pissed.
Cue the Crusades.
Somewhere this dude gets pissed off with the whole Holy Roman Empire thingy, not because the Romans killed Christ, but because well, the temple’s kinda rich and selling pardons and promising people they’ll get into heaven for like a hundred bucks. He thinks it’s too little money or something.
Cue a bunch of people killing each other, commoners all, while Kingdoms change hands. One kingdom has a bright idea to avert all this inquisitory hocus pocus, they set up their own religion! A buncha people are exiled to the Americas because they kinda take the whole Bible literally.
They get pretty prosperous out there in the Noveau Monde, and in time supersede even the Spaniards in New Spain who all right-minded people were betting on. Meanwhile back in the Old World, a buncha new religions are formed, all of them believe in the same god and the same heaven, but believe none of the others’ll be in heaven, and so delight in killing each other ‘cos they won’t be neighbors in the afterlife and won’t have to worry about social awkwardness at the all-you-can-eat buffet in Heaven on Sundays.
Meanwhile a latter day kinda bunch of people believe Jesus came out to the new world a long long time ago, and converted the Indians or something. Proof: look how many Mexicans are called Heysoos! Some dude believes them, though not exactly, and after some other dude is killed, this dude says: hey you know all the churches and stuff back on the East Coast? Well screw them, I spoke to God last night and he told me to go out West and take a few chicks with me, and a few generations later we’ll get to fornicate with underaged teens in Utah, ain’t that cool? He ends up with more than fifty wives and builds a big motel for them and gives them keys to their own rooms.
And these little vignettes leave out groups of people who gassed themselves, walled themselves up in compounds with stuff that the ATF badly needed for their druggy orgies, Christian gospels sung in tagalog and swahili, Virgin Mary’s in tacos and salsa bottles, the various Inquisitions, and God (yeah, him) only knows what else.
In summary then:
They may talk of one God, but they sure needs a lot of Prophets!
And no prophet can profit without a buncha gullible people, and by even talking about this nonsense, you’ll join in the fun, willy-nilly, as one of my Professors loved to say (yo Farrukh Khan!).
October 22nd, 2006 at 7:21 pm
“Christ disclosed himself to mankind because of his Love for us. This is clear in the Gospel texts. To attack the text and claim lack of validity is to avoid this confrontation - What do I do with the real Jesus. ”
The text gets attacked because “perfect” knowledge should be easily transmitted “perfectly” and it hasn’t–ergo, the knowledge isn’t what is claimed.
Jesus made many statements during his rabbinical years, most of which have substantial philosophical weight. To follow Jesus’ teachings requires that one change one’s life, substantively. They are recommendations for living better. None of them has much to do with an afterlife.
The “real” Jesus, as far as I can tell, was a hell of an interesting philosopher. A radical as well. What to do with the “real” Jesus would be the same thing as is done with the “real” Socrates, Aristotle, Pythagoreas, Spinoza, Hume, Locke….listen, learn, change your life accordingly. There is much of merit in his words–for this life.
His later followers deified him, put the idea of his divinity above his teachings, and turned him into a harmless icon–something you don’t need to actually listen to and change your life accordingly, but only pray to in order to continue living the way you’ve been and ease your conscience.
All this theological debate is fairly pointless. The only people who should be worried about a demythologized Jesus are those who tend to use him as a weapon in the first place to berate those with whom they disagree.
October 22nd, 2006 at 8:47 pm
Koendert:
It’s not about a church membership or all the hypocrites. It’s about Jesus. If you’ve had bad experiences in your church, I suggest finding another fellowship. Most churches probably have a certain percentage of people that are not Christ’s.
Think seriously before casting off your faith.
grumpypilgrim:
1) God is love. For love to work, you need more than one person.
2) God is also perfect and holy and just. We have rebelled against Him, therefore incurred His wrath. As a just God, justice demands satisfaction. Or else he wouldn’t be just. He loved us so much, He delivered His only Son to satisfy the judgement. He placed on Jesus the burden of us all (that is, of those that accept this substitution).
People:
These are really very basic teachings. I am amazed that you have not taken the time to study the bible. If you will only spend some time reading it through and let God speak to you through it, your eyes will begin to open.
For those of you who have trouble with Christianity due to those who call themselves Christian but are ravening wolves, try to see past the deception.
October 22nd, 2006 at 9:39 pm
londonderry: you da man!! that was hilarious. and yet, so to the point.
October 22nd, 2006 at 10:03 pm
[...] Requiring a thorough reading of Religious texts is in fact an Atheist’s best friend. [...]
October 22nd, 2006 at 10:15 pm
“The basis of things is eccentric.”
Wallace Stevens
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:18 pm
Here’s a documentary to supplement the original post. It’s a two-hour documentary called “Who Wrote The Bible?” The video was narrated and written by Professor of Theology Robert Beckford. In this video, Beckford, a committed believer, began a journey to search for the answer of who wrote the Bible. http://www.infidelguy.com/modules.php?name=Video&op=view&video_id=43
[I learned quite a few things by watching this. For instance, it was in this documentary that I first learned that it is never indicated anywhere in the New Testament that Mary Magdalan was a prostitute.]
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:51 pm
This is god
theres a whole universe out there.. why would i send someone down to see you!?..
you dont even make up a pin prick on the edge of a giant universe…
theres millions of galaxys out there… all with millions of stars.. with millions and millions of planets..
do u think 1 jesus visited all of the planets at the same time?.. maybe there was a zillion cloned jesus’s and now theyre all sitting on my right hand.. why would i make a human jesus.. your all freaking idiots…
i cant be bothered with explaining it further ive got a million million other planets to worry about….
get your head out of the books and the clouds and live a real life!
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:56 pm
actually its god speaking on behalf of himself.. but anyway.. why dose the world waste time money and brains on religion.. get a real job.. further our existance..
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:56 pm
I’m honored that God Himself would take the time to visit this site. I’m surprised, though, that He’s got so many typos in His comment.
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:57 pm
yea i wrote the bible too!
October 23rd, 2006 at 1:45 am
“god himself Says:
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:57 pm
yea i wrote the bible too!”
Well that clears that up!
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:53 am
[...] What would happen if one man could prove that the Bible was not God’s truth? What if he could demonstrate that the words of Jesus that was taught throughout school were not written at the time of Jesus, but were added at a later date? What if this cast the veracity of the rest of the Bible into doubt? Would Christians believe him? Would they be able to give up their hardened convictions, even in the face of proof? Even if the person denouncing the words of the Bible was actually a born-again Christian himself? I very much doubt it. But I am glad that at least some Christians can question the dogma and rhetoric they are force-fed and can still continue believing even after proving the source of their proof may be wrong. Another article that is worth a read. [...]
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:03 am
Londonderry, dude, you rock!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:13 am
Interesting article, and I’m sure an interesting book. Although, I find it almost amusing the slant the article, and I presume the book, takes on the various biblical ‘inconsistencies’. Another scholar could take the same points and present a picture of the accuracy of the bible.
For me this part of your article sums up a lot of the issues, and I find it suprising you could include this, but still end up with an overall tone that suggests the bible is mostly fabricated nonsense:
Obviously, there
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:35 am
(oops, clicked submit too early)
Obviously, there are plenty of lay christians who have a very naïve understanding of the bible text, such as those who think the KJV is textually perfect. A bit like some people who believe everything they hear on the news - “Oh, I heard it on the news, it must be true”. (or could that be “I read it in a book by Bart Ehrman, it must be true” - OK, that was a bit cheeky)
I suspect that for every ignorant christian fundamentalist there is at least one ignorant amateur bible critic. If this book is balanced enough to educate both sides it will be welcome contribution.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:07 am
I’m honored that God Himself would take the time to visit this site. I’m surprised, though, that He’s got so many typos in His comment.
god himself Says:
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:57 pm
yea i wrote the bible too!
Genius heckle!
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:52 am
The first thing that I learned about Buddhism was that none of the teachings were written down for 200 years after the Buddha’s death. Then I learned that the Mahayana teachings came into existance after the Buddha’s death, by way of dreams. My teacher told us that everything in Buddhism is metaphore and that indeed, everything in life is metaphore. Literalism seems to be a big problem. We should be able to discriminate what is helpful for ourselves and to humanity by testing out these doctrines using our own God given (if you will) minds. Even hundreds of years later, it is possible to get real benefit out of the world’s religions, but it really requires that we not be sheep. That, I think, is the author’s point and is very relevant to all of these discussions. May we all find truth and happiness through truely investigating the world with vast, open, discriminating minds. May we enjoy each other and not give way to partisan squabbles. We are all of us dying every moment, and every moment our minds are only arguing - with everyone else and with ourselves - this is a waste! On our death beds we will not be comforted by the arguments we have won, but only in that we have gained peace through our ardent and sincere warmth towards all of mankind. This is true for the Athiest and the Christian, it doesn’t matter!
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:15 am
What really amazes me are people that believe in science as an absolute. How many times have theories been changed over the course of time because someone in his/her great wisdom figured out that the previous genius in his/her great wisdom was completely off? But yet, that seems to be dismissed time and again by those with faith in the world and humanity. The wisdom of man is foolishness to God. There are concepts of Christianity that cannot be understood by man (the virgin birth, the Trinity, etc.). They are all leaps of faith. The same can be said of history. How many times has history been rewritten? Does anybody out there know Napoleon? Maybe he was just misunderstood? Or Hitler, or George Washington? All we have to go on is what was written about them, which I’m sure had the writers’ own interpretations and suggestions written in, but no one ever questions it. It is considered fact because its in our history books. Take any subject, for that matter. Are all books on psychology the same? or sociology? or pathology, biology, anthropology, philosophy? Even mathematics, which is claimed as an exact science, with its 3.14 and other infinite numbers which never conclude. Rarely does anyone challenge these sources of wisdom. But for all you Bible attackers out there let me ask you this…Let’s say you are right, and the story of Jesus and the prostitute who was brought for the stoning was not in the original manuscripts, is it not still a great lesson? Can nothing be gained from this wisdom? How quick some are to judge the Bible because of its religious importance, but neglect to examine any other secular sources because they are more widely accepted as truth. The skeptics claim that the Bible cannot be true because it was written and rewritten by human authors, but ask yourselves, which edition or version of that textbook you are reading is…I doubt it is the first.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:17 am
Funny, i have studied with Jehovah’s Witnesses and a friend of mine was a very old Bible Scholar. We went through most of the things quoted above from the book…. almost 10 years ago and it seems the questions posed were answered a long time ago. They have dictionaries and concordances with references to sources and they are free. Also bible studies are free. You might even be able to get a copy of the searchable CD Rom with most of the publications and updates.
By the way, if just believing in Jesus got you into heaven, then I guess you heaven bound folks will be seeing Satan and his Demons there, because after the whipping they just received, you know THEY believe.
http://www.watchtower.org.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:41 am
It’s wildly amusing to hear people assert that the bible, and particularly the New Testament is literally True and Accurate in all particulars that matter — that God would not *permit* a translation to be inaccurate. That’s a very convenient stance, taking the bible as axiomatic, because if your axioms contain a contradiction, you can rigorously prove any bloody thing.
What gets missed is the essence of the message. What does it matter exactly how Judas died or who exactly bought the potter’s field? How many of the explicit contradictions materially affect the core message there to be discerned? Of course, that means that you have to actually *discern* the message instead of simply swallowing pap spewed by people whose motivations should be viewed with skepticism. What are they really selling?
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:48 am
Aah Just some more hints that God and Religions Inc. (c) dont have a great deal in common. Thanks to londonderry for his succinct summation of the history of humankind, er, by the way you have some textual errors
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:49 am
it’s all a matter of faith isn’t it? i can’t believe that the copy of the king james version that i own is inerrant and inspired, but i have no problem with believing christian doctrine and the essential truth of the bible. some people have faith in the scientists that begin their sentences “somewhere between 150 and 200 million years ago…” and some people have faith in “in the beginning was the Word…” neither can be “proven”– it’s just a question of where you place your belief.
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:28 am
What a shame in all of this. All this disagreement is also foretold, do your own look up.
Either you believe or you don’t, your choice, man’s free will, also spoken about in scripture. To tear the Bible apart is discusting to me, and I can’t beleive you people call yourselves intelligent. Why is it so important to validate anything when if comes to God? So a few words were misspelled or left out, whoop dee do. The truth is still there and guess what I’m not a scholar I’m a human being who does feel Christ in my soul, have seen miracles happen AND AM NOT BRAINWASHED,. I feel the truth in my heart, don’t care to pick it apart in hopes to find fault in all of it just so I can feel better about my lifestyle and choices I make in this life that are are pleasing to me ( selfish self) all about me syndrome that this world has embraced, techincally serving one’s self and no other supreme God. now to me that is really igonrant.
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:45 am
Christians have quite an imagination. Your “faith” and “belief” and so forth are aspects of your own mind that you use to make yourself comfortable in this decidedly uncomfortable existence. Your views of “God” and “Jesus” and so forth are similarly delusional.
You’re afraid of the unknown and you construct a fantasy (religion) to try and fend off that fear.
Humanity will be better off once we’ve grown up a little more, learned to face our fears, and abandoned these things for the childish fantasies that they are.
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:53 am
This argument is not new. Please read ‘Honest to Jesus’ by Funk and ‘Cosmic Consciousness’ by Bucke. ‘Answer to Job’ (Jung) will just sink you.
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:00 am
Ray said:
“According to your teachings, you have no assurance to heaven. In Christianity, you can have this assurance. ”
Are you kidding me? Your reason and the reason your telling others to follow Christianity is to get into heaven? Last time I checked that reason is overly selfish and not what Christianity is about.
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:02 am
I picked up the bible when i was 13, was never force fed the bible. I still believe with all my heart. My heart goes out to all the people who want to spend time debating small matters when the big picture goes unseen. My prayers go out to all of you.
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:05 am
I just read up to your forth paragraph to realize that the gentlemen that you are talking about, was what Jesus called a tare among the wheat.
You quote John 19:14 as a contradiction, saying it shows Jesus was crucified before the Passover meal– this is ridiculous. And if you or that supposed scholar knew anything about the Jewish Holy Week of Feast of Unleavened Bread (also known as Passover Week as it is quoted in John 19:14 NIV), you would know that the day after the Passover meal was the day of preparation for the Feast of Unleavened Bread. So, by stating in KJV or other translations that it was the preparation to the Passover (not the Passover “meal”) it is refering to the praparation to the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is a seven day observance.
So, with that contradiction to your own article, I need not read anymore.
I would recommend you study the Dead Sea Scrolls to find out for your self that it is amazing the few mistakes there were in translation, and the mistakes that were made in translation do not effect any doctrinal beliefs. It is total ignorance to take one mans word on a subject, just because he has some man-made credentials.
I have the credentials of Revelation Knowledge from Jesus Christ and I would debate you or that author anyday and neither of you would know what hit you.
Respectfully Yours,
RJS
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:34 am
The fact that no “greater power” exists gives us all more reason to discover love and compassion within ourselves.
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:43 am
One of Erich Vieth’s statements (not sure if he is attributing this to Bart Erhman or not….) really stood out and I have to point it out:
“The elephant in the room, however, is that none of the authors of the Gospels ever claimed to witness any of the events they were reporting…”
Doesn’t the gospel of John in Chapter 21, verse 24 claim otherwise?
This is the chapter in which Jesus tells Peter how he will die, and then
Peter replies in words to the effect “what about this guy? (meaning
the apostle John, that is how will he die?” Jesus replies if he should
live until I return, what is that to you?” (I am of course paraphrasing,
so perhaps it would be better to quote the scripture directly:)
20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. (in some translations
it says “I am that disciple!”)
It seems clear to me that according to this scripture, John is indeed
claiming authorship of this Gospel.
There are contradictions in the Bible, for instance there is one Gospel
which claims Judas hung himself, and another which claims he fell
down and his bowels split open. I’ll leave it to others to research
the exact location of these scriptures. I have come to believe that
these accounts of the Gospel are much like eyewitness accounts
of a traffic accident. They may vary, perhaps even greatly. But
that doesn’t mean that the accident never occurred. People forget
details as time goes by and our memory isn’t completey trustworthy.
I look for the living truth behind the words in the Bible, rather than
believing that every sentence of every version is entirely correct
or inspired by God. Most of us believe as we do because of personal
experience, or because our beliefs have become shaped by our
experiences in life, which tend to confirm or deny what we may have
been taught.
And I may very well be wrong, but this is the best I can figure it
out. I was an agnostic for about 10 years of my life - almost an
atheist, actually. It was only have personal experience (or if
you wish - a deep, personal conversion experience) that I began
to question my doubts. I have many questions, but I would be
intellectually dishonest if I didn’t identify myself as a believer
in the divinity (and also the humanity) of Jesus Christ
Reading Simone Weil’s spiritual autobiography WAITING FOR GOD
has been very useful to me also.
Simone Weil wrote “Christ prefers that we choose truth” before him, because one can never pursue the truth for too long before
“falling into his arms.”
Let’s continue the debate and keep an open mind. Thanks to all
of you who have written to this weblog.
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:45 am
We all seem to need answers. Myself, I dont know what to beleive, science or religion. All I know is the universe and humans themselves are a little too complicated to just come from a little organism. There has to be something bigger that explains this.
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:52 am
To me I Am never ceased to be amazed at the levels people on earth are willing to go to be right or to be heard ……and as they tear each other apart with words and mean spirites statements when in all acuality the appear to be acting as if they are GOD and able to judge anything or anyone …All I can speak of from my experience is this …I am no scholar I am no intellect I am a mere mortal A HUMAN born into a world where battles are fought and people DIE ….over such things as this arguement who is right and who may be wrong about the Bible …In the name of Jihad and so on …Look at the battles that have been waging on for years on the very ground That Jesus walked on …I mean seriously ….I believe that this arguement and conflictual statements and writings over the Bible are another way for us to become more God -Centered and less Self centered whch then leads to being a Centered -self I believe that all the things I have read ,learned ,and studied were put into my hands at the time I needed them by a ALL Knowing All Encompassing Power FAR beyond the reaches of my understanding But ,I Know now after living 42 short years that I have been allowwed to live thru things only by the grace of GOD and that All things come from him ALL THINGS GOOD …That is for the greater GOOD OF US …….WE may not feel or undedrstand how going thru trials and tribulations are good at the time we go thru them but later on inhindsight for me all that I have gone thru Good BAD or otherwise the end result Helped to Refine me and Strengthen me for any BATTLE or conflict OR TEMPTATION that I may encounter in my Journey in THIS LIFE ….I am truly Thankful for these things I have The ablity to believe .free will …..A Bible whether it be in correct context or not accurate or not Has brought me a greater understanding of SELF and A GOD I choose to understand It comforts me none the less accuracy as with all things human has a ratio leaning to error AND Errors and mistakes Is the very things which I have grown from and become more closer with GOD as result of making and doing so really Again who r we to judge this for clarity when all it seems to be is that the author of Misquoting Jesus is another tool 4 us all ti use to become more God- reliant and less self -reliant and have the where witha ll to PRAY ABOUT IT FOR THE ANSWERS FOR US ONLY
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:06 am
For those swearing that the King James version is the end all/be all, may I ask… Did god fax them the bible or something??
I’d be very curious to see what some of the “unpublished” gospels that the Vatican is hiding have to say. Also, why would the Vatican be hiding these gospels??
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:07 am
P.S. londonderry: HYSTERICAL!
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:14 am
“To tear the Bible apart is discusting (sic) to me”
Yes, I’m sure that any intelligent discussion regarding the fundamental truthfulness of the bible is “disgusting” as it points out gross inaccuracies that would put your “faith” in question…
“… AM NOT BRAINWASHED”
When you’re presented with credible scientific research that calls your book into question, you disregard it out of hand “I… don’t care to pick it apart in hopes to find fault”. The fact that you blindly believe in something that evidence shows to be completely unfounded is the definition of brainwashed.
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:38 am
Okay, why does Ehrman look at Greek texts. The answer is obvious: the translations of the Bible (and yes the Bible was translated into English by religious people with socio-political agendas) came from the Greco-Roman tradition. The monks who did the transcriptions spoke copied Latin and Greek texts under the doctrine of religious people who had orders from the pope, who was “infallible” in doctrine, but who was also a politician. The history of the Roman Catholic Church show us how corrupt the church officials were–is it unsafe to make the cognitive leap that some of that shows up in the translations and copying?
Secondly, we all know there were books deliberately left out of the Bible. A council of men made the decision of what books were to be included. Paul, who never even knew the living Jesus is given more pages than anybody in the new testament. Like the dialogues of Socrates, many of the stories of Jesus were written by people who weren’t eyewitnesses or weren’t even alive when Jesus lived. These are transcribed stories from oral stories (many of which were kept alive by word of mouth for fear of the wrath of Pharisees and/or Romans if the texts were written down). How well do you trust a story told by word of mouth for twenty days, never mind twenty or more years?
Much of what we now have as a Bible is based on a vision of the church which developed when Paul (with his Roman-centric vision) usurped power from Peter and James (Jesus’s brother), who had a Judaeo-centric view of the teachings of Jesus.
The Bible contradicts itself all over the place. Do any of the Christians who blieve in the ten commandments (which are just a preamble for the laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus) believe that a young woman who disobeys her parents ought to be stoned to death? Since the Bible clearly condones slavery (there are laws in the Bible discussing the proper treatment of slaves; Jesus heals a slave and lauds the slave’s master for caring for the slave so well), do you Christians belive slavery is a good practice or should it be outlawed? The Bible says it’s a perfectly legitimate practice and gives guidelines even to the value of slaves: 30 shekels of silver.
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:40 am
There is not an iota of archaeolgical evidence for the existence of a Jesus Christ. The mythological figure was concocted first by desperate people under severe conditions that needed a force to help. People simply created one out of the surroundings of constant multiple crucifixtions and legends of the past. Forty years after the alleged event, there came the so-called Paul’s letters. They had no mention of a Jesus, aposteles, Karishna-like virgin birth, resurrection, miracles, or anything like that. Some thirty years later, people started authoring so-called Bibles. many were written and copied over and over. Finally two centuries later, four bibles were selected by a council in Constantinople as legitimate out of gathered 27 of them. In fact, supposedly another one was found in Naga Hammadi, Egypt in 1954 and credited to, of all people, Mary Magdalene.
I know that we are all feeling insecure because we can’t prevent bad things to happen to us. Faith is a drug, but it is harmless to the non-thinkers. People should realize that before Pasteur discovered the vaccine for Rabies, we were a lot more insecure.
October 23rd, 2006 at 10:37 am
ARE YOU ALL SERIOUS? ARE WE REALLY ARGUING OVER WHAT IS THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT AND JESUS? THOSE THREE DO MAKE UP THE ALL IN ONE. I BELIEVE IN GOD AND I BELIEVE IN THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. I DO BELIEVE THAT GOD BUILT THE EARTHS AND THE HEAVENS, AND THAT ONE DAY WE WILL ALL BE IN HEAVEN. GOD DIED TO SAVE US ALL, IN THE PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT CULTURE YOU ARE OR WHAT BELIEF YOU ARE, WE ALL WILL GO TO HEAVEN AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. NO MAN NOW OR EVER WILL LET HIMSELF BE PUT ON A CROSS AND PRETTY MUCH ROT TO SAVE US, ONLY GOD HIMSELF WILL DO THAT. AND HE DID. IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE THAT ONE MAN DID THE HEAVENS AND EARTHS AND DID THE THINGS THAT HAS BEEN SAID IN ALL THE TESTAMENTS. HEALING THE SICK AND THE BLIND. I QUESTION IT TOO, BUT WE ALL HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THE BIBLE ONCE WAS WRITTEN AND IT DID HAVE MEANING, EVEN IF IT WAS REWRITTEN SEVERAL TIMES AND PUT INTO DIFFERENT TERMS, MAYBE TO TRANSLATE IN THE WAY WE WOULD UNDERSTAND IT. BUT THAT DOES NOT MATTER TO US, WHAT MATTERS IS THAT THERE WAS A GOD AND STILL IS A GOD. AND THAT HE LOVES US ENOUGH TO FORGIVE US FOR THE TERRIBLE THINGS WE SAY OR DO. THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT BRAINWASHING OR CRITIZING THE BIBLE, OR GOING AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD. ONE QUESTION THAT I WOULD LIKE TO ASK AND HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE YOU THINK MORE OF WHAT GOD HAS DONE FOR US, WOULD YOU DIE FOR YOUR LOVED ONES AND EVEN YOUR OWN CHILDREN? I KNOW I WOULD, AND THAT IS WHAT GOD DID FOR US, HE IS THE FATHER AND WE ARE HIS CHILDREN AND IT IS UP TO US TO TRY TO CARRY OUT HIS WORD, AND HELP OTHERS BELIEVE IN HIS WORD. WE ALL KNOW WE GOT HERE SOME HOW, AND I KNOW IT WAS NOT FROM THE MOMMY AND DADDY DINOSAUR. I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS FROM A HUMAN-MAN-KIND.
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:10 am
jesus said i am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through me. if you don’t believe that than there is no point in talking to you about anything else.
its true, the words in the bible cannot be proven–thats why they call it faith
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:13 am
For Vieth and Ehrman: Sometimes the original brings one closer to God’s purpose. There was also another religious edit in the 4th century that took years to fix regarding the role of Mary of Magdela. Societal aims then as now make editorial decisions. Great read: See the following academic treatment of the subject.
The Woman Jesus Loved: Mary Magdalene in the Nag Hammadi Library and Related Documents (Nag Hammadi and Manichaean Studies, 40) by Antti Marjanen
An Intellectual Treatment of the Da Vinci Code , June 10, 2006
While this book will never make it to the silver screen, it is researched and written throughtfully. The author accurately describes the meaning of the love of Jesus toward Mary of Magdela. It was the love of a teacher to a prize student. One who he could count on, who understood the rivalries …… Read More
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:18 am
Hey, none of you considered me in this discussion! I was on my way to Damascus to whack a bunch of those in “The Way” (they didn’t call themselves Christians in those days) when… well you know the story. I had no reason to adopt this lifestyle, but when I got my sight back and the Spirit came over me, I had no reason not to join them. Most of those letters I wrote were only 30-40 years after Jesus was crucified. And remember, I met Peter and some of the others who actually walked with Him. This alone should tell you that even with a few mis-interpretations that the whole story is true.
So what if you don’t know ‘exactly’ what Jesus said or did down to the letter. You get enough of the general idea to stop all this whining and joking around - it’s time to get serious about spreading the love on this planet. All you people who want to “know” if this stuff is true with a .001 degree of accuracy are missing the point. God loves each of us so much that he sent Jesus as a model for each of us to follow. Stop trying to read the Bible as if there was going to be a test on it and start living the principles.
And forget about Revelations. First, nobody knows what’s going to happen except God and he’s not telling. Secondly, since nobody knows, then start living in the moment and doing what counts NOW, not trying to get ready for some apocalypse.
Sheesh!
- A.P.
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:21 am
zzzz…z.z.zz……what else is new?
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:21 am
Hence the reason for God giving us the Book of Mormon…an additional and sure testament of Jesus Christ, which we can use hand in hand with the Bible to identify its eternal truths. Give it a try! You’d be amazed at how clear and concise it is and how much meaning it brings to the Bible.
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:37 am
yes its true when you translate it there is a big change in meaning and specially when translator is human being………for the the old testament was acceptable but when I saw do’s and don’ts have been changed in New testament………I doubt the old testament now………
Swine is not allowed in both but every one believe that its the best food from so called god……….is that right????
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:38 am
Matthew
Good point, as far as it goes…
As far as I know, the texts on the subjects you mention (psychology, sociology, pathology, biology, anthropology, philosophy and mathematics) don’t generally claim to be perfect. Have your actually read a philosophy text that claims to have all the answers.
Most of us sceptics (realists) don’t have a problem with your beliefs, We just object to your insistence that you and only you are right (based on a book with debatable origins). It’s the way that many in this country who claim to represent your faith use the bible as a weapon. It’s how the vast majority of evangelicals throughout history have been willing to kill and die defending their faith (or at least get poor people to kill and die for them). Your willingness to connect religion with politics absolutely negates any claim to the moral high ground you people so fiercely harangue the rest of us with.
Meanwhile, millions of others are willing to kill and die for a different set of beliefs. I wish yo folks would leave the rest of us out of it.
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:39 am
1cor2:14 speaks about the ignorance of ‘natural man’ and his incapablility of understanding “MOST HIGH ” matters & look how true it is! Bart Ehrman will do much better if he applies ‘textual criticism’ in other WORLDLY, the so called literatures.(right where he BELONGS.) What a crooked way to become FAMOUS! DISGUSTING.
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:41 am
Interesting Debate. We are stuck up with man made differences. Basic core teaching is the same: to be an honest man; good person; do good deeds and go to heaven thereafter if it exists!
Religions are like different paths leading to the light at the top of the mountain! Be enlightened and live in peace.
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:53 am
Ray says:
“1) God is love. For love to work, you need more than one person.
“2) God is also perfect and holy and just. We have rebelled against Him, therefore incurred His wrath. As a just God, justice demands satisfaction. Or else he wouldn’t be just. He loved us so much, He delivered His only Son to satisfy the judgement. He placed on Jesus the burden of us all (that is, of those that accept this substitution).”
As regards point 1: Imagine you are an early Christian Believer trying to gain followers for your religion. What better way would there be for you to generate support for your new religion than by listing the best pre-existing human behaviors (e.g., selflessness, altruism, generosity, fairness, justice, forgiveness, etc.) and emotions (e.g., love) and then claiming that your god is the source of all of those qualities? Let’s get beyond the “God is love” soundbites, shall we?
As regards point 2: again, let’s get past the regurgitated soundbites. If God exists and is all powerful, then he can simply absolve the human race of its sins without all that nonsense about sending Jesus to die for us. You say that “As a just God, justice demands satisfaction. Or else he wouldn’t be just. He loved us so much, He delivered His only Son to satisfy the judgement.” But that is self-contradictory. You say that justice demands satisfaction or else God would not be just, but then you state that Jesus, an innocent person, satisfied the judgment. You are saying that a judge who sentences an innocent man to death, while knowingly letting the guilty man go free, is a fair judge. Plainly that is not justice at all. Indeed, that is the opposite of justice. To say that God “loved us so much” that he “delivered his only son to satisfy the judgment” is equally nonsensical. No loving father would ever kill his own son to allow a guilty man go free. That isn’t love at all; it’s infanticide.
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:57 am
No one can speak for God; anything man writes has to be taken with a grain of salt!
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:57 am
Anyone who says the Bible is crap, let me tell you something. I am a believer. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I talk to Him every day and He talks to me. I’m telling you if you ever have got close to Jesus you would not be turned away from Christianity. All you had was a religious expirience, dead human doctrines to follow. But with God, as in Jer 29:11 says, He has a future and a hope for you. Nothing you can plan on your own could be better then help from the one who created you for a specific purpose. Everything I have need of is provided by God, miracles happen all the time for me. I saw a lady who was blind in one eye receive her sight back in front of me! I’m telling you, there is nothing better then serving a God who loves us. Other religions die for their God and cause, but our God dies for us!!
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Matthew; Science is not an absolute anything. Science is a method for discovering and eventually proving what is true. Using the scientific method over and over again in repeated experiments will eventually lead us to what is real. Along the way, hypothesis and theories will come and go. If properly applied (used), the scientific method will ALWAYS reveal reality. If it doesn’t, then the experiment was incorrectly done. This is true of any field of inquiry. There is no reason to believe that God did not give man the scientific method, therefore science is a gift of God for man to use to discover and come to embrace the world around him. If God did not want man to discover the truth he would not have made the scientific method available. Eventually we may come to learn more about God. It may or may not have much to do with the Bible.
Cato (PhD in Microbiology)
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:12 pm
It’s interesting. Most say,” Alright, this is wrong.” and go on to, at least try to prove a point. This side of the fence, or that side. And some of you (thankfully) try to point out that there’s plenty of land away from this silly fence you’ve built. Okay, enough pasture talk.
If we really want to get down to it, when has the bible never contradicted itself? If you were to follow the teachings, it’s a book written by (imperfect) man (and woman, unless Ruth, Ester and the like were too busy/lazy to pen their journeys) who have heard from a (perfect) God. The few convenient sidenotes are thrown in there, in case we start to question things ( This is the Holy (.. as in, with many holes?) word Of GOD, and all that rot ). Who’s to say it is or it isn’t? I’d venture that it’s got many great ideas, but we’ve tended to follow them .. well. Not so well, as our good friend ‘londonderry’ pointed out. But to quote ksmith, I’d hate to be just another ‘igonrant’. (okay, okay, potshots at people’s spelling. I’ll stop. My grammar and the like is awful.)
You don’t need to be brainwashed by someone. We as humans are perfectly capable of doing that to ourselves. Which brings me to another points ( on one of those crazy shoots and ladders rabbit trails ). .. If its’ a perfect system, yet’ we’ve messed it up so many times, who’s to say that we didn’t mess it up when we wrote it down?
I’d venture that things sort of heated up when the son of an idol maker in a little desert town noticed things were a bit off. ” Wait a minute,” he must’ve said,” How does this piece of wood, and this rock, become a god? ” And Abram (the ‘ha’ was added later. A bit of comic relief, perhaps.) decided,” Oh, what the hell. I’ll start my own religion!.. Wait. Hell. That might come in useful later.” And thus began the saga. Yes, I’ve read it many times. I have my mum and dad to thank for that, but no hard feelings seriously.
Here’s my advice. Set aside your beliefs, at least for one day. And go explore another! I really mean that too. Someone made a very good point when they spoke of the human sacrifice. It matches all too well with the pagan religions of the time ( as do Christmas, and Easter.. Wait. The communion. Blood- Vampirism? Flesh-Cannibalism? Even as a symbolic gesture its’ a bit disturbing. ).
Anyway, back on track. Keep up this charade you play as a harbinger of doom. It’s going to happen sure. Just like the dinosaurs ( although we seem to have a few of them about still ) and what not. Who’s to say that humans will last forever? By any timeline you go by, we’re just the newcomers. (Except for the Adam and Eve thing. Which is a bit creative… To say the least. “There was nothing. And voi-la! The world! .. And now for my next trick!” .. Seriously, we went ” I .. I dunno.” and made it up. In my humble opinion, which doesn’t mean fuck-all to anyone but me at the moment. But tha’ts what matters, so I’m writing it down. )
Get a bit crazy with it. Play, dance, feel, hurt, laugh, love, cry. And that’s life.
Ciao
- Tialas
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Is there a translation of only the oldest known versions which have been compared so that a consensus version can be printed? It would seem that the errors could be statistically, textually, stylistically and otherwise analysed to come up with a more accutrate version. The obvious errors could be weeded out. As a Christian who does not believe in the Trinity, as it was obviously added later, I want to know what the original Christians believed.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:13 pm
THANK GOODNESS WE HAVE MODERN DAY PROPHETS AS SHOWN IN THE BOOK OF MORMON
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:15 pm
time has a way of bringing things to light! i have preached what has been stated here for the last 14 to 15 yrs. research will so that man changed the bible a number of times for many reasons! king james changed the bible because the churh was mad that he was ruling as a tyrant and it was against the bible. he had a group of scholars come together and write the king james version so he would not have to change the way he ruled.
jesus was once quoted as saying “prove all things lest ye know better then me! ” thats sttaight from the bible! did he really say that? good question ! but a better quetsion is why dont you do the research yourself and see what the truth really is! thats one way to know for sure! prove it yourself! there is another passage in the bible that says you should not celebrate chrismas the way you do and another that says all gays should be put to death! is it the word of god or man! that is the question! do the research and you will know the answer! i studiy all religions so i can know who stands for what and why! thats the only way you will come to terms on what you truly believe!
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:17 pm
I think you have all missed the key point here; which is what happens when one threatens deeply held, dogmatic belief. The point is that the original biblical texts were written in GREEK. The prophet and his disciples spoke ARAMAIC. What does this mean? The original texts of the bible NEVER WERE WRITTEN by the disciples in the first place. Two plus two, folks.
These arguments are as old as the Church itself, and all come down to the same thing: social engineering by misdirection thereby preventing REAL thought and discourse to arise.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:21 pm
Oh, and one more point. I only picked this post, because it was the closest.
“”ksmith Says:
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:28 am
What a shame in all of this. All this disagreement is also foretold, do your own look up.
Either you believe or you don’t, your choice, man’s free will, also spoken about in scripture. To tear the Bible apart is discusting to me, and I can’t beleive you people call yourselves intelligent. Why is it so important to validate anything when if comes to God? So a few words were misspelled or left out, whoop dee do. The truth is still there and guess what I’m not a scholar I’m a human being who does feel Christ in my soul, have seen miracles happen AND AM NOT BRAINWASHED,. I feel the truth in my heart, don’t care to pick it apart in hopes to find fault in all of it just so I can feel better about my lifestyle and choices I make in this life that are are pleasing to me ( selfish self) all about me syndrome that this world has embraced, techincally serving one’s self and no other supreme God. now to me that is really igonrant. “”
First of all, to pick at anything is human nature. Next time you get a bill, or car payment, or some sort of document to sign.. Just sign it. Don’t read it. Can you? Most people can’t. Not for any length of time. Yet, you’re asking us to do the very same thing with the Bible!
“” Why is it so important to validate anything when if comes to God? “”
Well, because if it actually was from God, that’d be something now wouldn’t it! Unfortunately, there are plenty of people out there who would love us to believe that their’s really is GOD!, and the one TRUE GOD(c)” at that. Who do you believe? Surely you can’t accept all of them, because I’m afraid they just don’t match up that well. It’d be nice, but doesn’t happen. So solly, cholly. Therein is the importance of when we ‘validate anything when if comes to God’. If I could say,” Yes, it is absolutely and 100 percent the complete way. ” Then by all means, I’d be on the front row with you now. But, I just can’t do that. To many unexplained things. To many errors. It’s like reading 2 guide to scuba diving. If one said,” Please turn the knob right. It is the correct way.” And the other,” Please turn the knob left. It is the correct way.” I’d be somewhat perturbed about scuba diving, until I knew the right way. It’s not quite that simple though. We’re talking about hundreds, and thousands of ’scuba diving manuals’. So, bottoms up, and cheerio. Keep a smile in your heart ( or wherever it is we keep that particular ideal) and one foot in front of the other. It comes down to survival. And when you can bring your mind out past that, to look at the world and go ” Hey! There’s really more than ‘me’ out here. Wow.” That’s when you’ve done something.
Tialas
“When you can’t run, walk. And when you can’t walk, crawl. And when you can’t even do that.. You find someone to carry you.”
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:21 pm
The message of Christ, regardless how we think of salvation, is that to love one’s neighbor, to help those who are in need, to turn to spiritual quests over material. Before a person who considers themselves a Christian to speak or write or in any way direct a comment to a person or group, they would have to apply the teachings of Christ for the ‘individual’ in order to be live a life of a Christian. Faith is demonstrated by our actions. Though those who do not believe in a Creator do not have a standard as such, civilization is moving to recognizing that those same behaviors that govern Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, and all others are what are the cause of well being of all. All the posts have been interesting and undoubtedly dogged by our human and imperfect perceptions, I think we can do better at coming to an understanding of what is best for us. I challenge all of us to remember if we are members of a Faith community, that judgement belongs to the Creator alone and not to us. And those who do not believe in a Creator that Justice is handled, though imperfectly, by those appointed or elected to do so and vigilantism is considered criminal. So I am just suggesting that we all look at ourselves first and in saying this I know that I might be violating my own request. I wish I knew how to say this how I feel it. It makes my heart heavy to see all of you who care about truth to treat each other unkindly.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Beesucker has hit the issue right on the head. The Author is pointing out discoveries that are the result of a great deal of research. It is better to question thoughtfully anything produced by man or God as we are men and women who ourselves are imperfect. How can we go wrong if we search for truth?
It seems to me the natural inclination of finding fault with something be it the bible or someone elses missive may be a calculation to discredit the target writing and therefore marginalize it. How manipulative we try to be to find a spelling error and then boom - you made an error so you are not God!
Who the hell cares? Listen to what someone is trying to say instead of trying to shut that someone down. Get over it already!
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:23 pm
How come Dinosaurs was not talked about in the Bible? Did God just stop with this Earth and not make anymore (if God wanted a perfect world, why did God stop with us? People who sin and kill). Did God have parents? How did God come to be? What did Jesus do as a Teen? Is Jesus really coming back or does he come back when we Die to get us? Jesus did not start Christianity nor did he talk about it. Yes we do call him Jesus Christ, but Christianity was made up, however CHRIST IS REAL. If the Orginal Jews was the #1 people of God and I’m not talking about Some Euor Jew today or anybody else then what is our real place since we where not the Chosen people??? If in the begining everything was with out sin and evil then how did evil come about? In the Garden the serpent was evil, but God was first? Since he is First and powerful how come he will not get rid of Evil/ The Devil??? The CHRISTIAN theology states that evil came into the world through the sin of the first man’s eating of the tree of forbidden fruit. All men sinned in Adam; because of Adam’s sin, every other being is and has been a sinner WHY??? Strangely enough this first man was made by a Superior Being in His own image, or, in other words, perfect; yet, he was not able to restrain himself from doing those things which he had been forbidden to do. In the very first being created in the image of the “Supreme,” there was a tendency to do wrong WHY?????? Some people say if God Loves you the why does he send some People to Hell??? If your in Hell and you start have faith in God (God knows where you heart really is) why is it too late and can you go to Heaven from Hell??? How could Satan do Evil when God had nothing Evil or Evil in this world??? In God everything is GOOD (Take of the extra O in GOOD then its GOD or Turn GOD around then its Dog.) Why do we hate the # 666? It just a # if it was bad then why can’t it be 664, 665, 667,668??? Was it reall 666 or 999??? Just some Questions
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:24 pm
so… All of a sudden, after 2,000 years, Bart has it all figured out… We’re not to take the Bible “as gospel,” but we ARE to take Bart’s opinion “as gospel.” Whew! I’m glad that’s finally cleared up… Good grief…
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:27 pm
I have heard a lot about the Bible being in error and authors refuting Scripture, consider, “Josh McDowell, Evidence that demands a verdict”. Many books have been written both about the Bible as well as the Quran”. Stories about the, a, Christ figure is prominent in ancient literature as well as stories about the flood.
Yet wisdom no matter where it comes from would say let every one be persuaded in their own mind.
As for me I believe in the Christ and him Crucified. I believe in God and the basic tenets of the Christian faith that Christ was born of a virgin crucified rose again and is coming back to the earth for those that believe, repent and accept him as personal Lord and savior.
The real issue, is Bert Ehrman still a believer? I am and I hope that those of you that believe will not be shaken and those that do not will come to know the Love of God through Jesus Christ.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:31 pm
This is a good discussion compared to others I have seen on the Internet. A good but respectful (for the most part) interplay of skeptics and believers who are trying to put forth intelligent arguments, rather than just bashing someone else’s point of view.
Congrats to all. Especially to londonderry for his wonderful History of the World (Part 2, if we are to take Mel Brooks’ version as Part 1).
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Basically even if the original version