At DI, we have an extremely conservative fellow visiting the blog these days. He’s trying to convert all of us to his reactionary world view. He clings to his Bible as a book of literal truths and he seems to love everything that Sarah Palin ostensibly stands for. I’d like to issue a challenge to this fellow, who goes by the name “Erik.” To me, he represents many people out there who seem to believe that if you pretend something isn’t important, it isn’t important, even if it IS important. This includes such critical topics as as Iraq, the cobbled together all-too-human nature of the Bible, Global Warming and, of course, sex education.
Please tell me which of the following sexual education topics you would rather that our children not know anything about. Please tell me in what specific ways we should keep children, including teenagers, in the dark.
These topics are actually the chapters of a popular book that I have read. I would wholeheartedly recommend this book to any parent seeking a sex education book for their children: It’s Perfectly Normal: Changing Bodies, Growing Up, Sex, and Sexual Health (2004), by Robie H. Harris (Author), Michael Emberley (Illustrator). Here are the topics:
Part I – What is Sex
Girl or Boy, Female or Male (sex and gender)
Making Babies (Sexual Reproduction)
Strong Feelings (Sexual Desire)
Making Love (Sexual intercourse)
Straight and Gay (Heterosexuality and homosexuality)
Part II – Our Bodies
The Human Body (All kinds of bodies)
Outside and Inside (The Female Sex Organs)
Outside and Inside (The Male Sex Organs)
Words (Talking about Bodies and Sex)
Part III – Puberty
Changes and Messages (Puberty and Hormones)
The travels of the Egg (Female Puberty)
The Travels of the Sperm (Male Puberty)
Not all at Once! (Growing and Changing Bodies)
More Changes (Taking care of your Body)
Back and Forth: (Up and Down – New and Changing Feelings)
Perfectly Normal: (Masturbation)
Part IV – Babies and Families
All sorts of Families (Taking care of babies and kids)
Instructions from Mom and Dad (The Cell, genes and chromosomes)
A kind of Sharing: (Cuddling, kissing, touching and sexual intercourse)
Before Birth: (Pregnancy)
What a Trip! (Birth)
Other Arrivals (More ways to have a baby and family, including adoption)
Part V – Decisions
Planning Ahead (postponement, abstinence and birth control)
Laws and Rulings (abortion)
Part VI – Staying Healthy
Talk about it (sexual abuse)
Checkup (Sexually Transmitted Diseases)
Scientists Working Day and Night (HIV and AIDS)
Staying Healthy (Responsible Choices).
So what is it, Erik? Should we avoid teaching our children about puberty? Sexual feelings? Masturbation? Shall we keep our kids from knowing anything about any of these sex-ed topics? Truly, tell me exactly how ignorant you want to keep America’s children and teenagers. Should we keep this book out of America’s public libraries? Should this book even be sold at all? You are aware, aren’t you, that many parents are so mentally stymied about sex (because their own parents thought it better to keep them ignorant) that they don’t have a clue about how to communicate these sex-ed ideas to their kids. Shouldn’t those parents have access to a book like this to provide them with clear information about compelling topics?
Here’s a caveat to those people who want to live in ignorance: you can peek in this book at Amazon–beware that you might learn something.
For a little journey that is pretty amazing, though not unexpected, take a look at the comments regarding this book at Amazon and you’ll be Amazed at the cultural chasm displayed. This book typically gets either 5 stars (from people who want their kids to be informed about these important topics) or 1 star (by people who want to keep their kids ignorant about sex). Too bad Bristol Palin didn’t have a book like this a year ago.
Because you might actually learn something important by reading it, It’s Perfectly Normal is one of the top ten challenged books of 2007, according to the Economist.
Proj: There's a saying, "Let a sleeping dog lie." But, alas, Karl has returned!
And what's become of Larry J.Carter?
Erik wrote: "I was waiting for this comment as well. The virgin who is engaged in verse 23 is not raped, look at the words that are on the page before you jump in judgment."
Back at you—look at the words Vikki wrote. Her point is that in the city, if the woman is gagged or simply didn't cry out loud enough, it is presumed she was not raped. And since most rapes do involve some sort of threat not to scream, this pretty much removes any kind of judgment, yours or theirs.
Conversely, if a woman wanted to just have a fling, all she needed to do was go out into the country, where it is presumed no one could possible (!) hear her scream, and she can do whatever the hell she wants.
These rules don't pass moral muster. I suppose since you're such a follower, that if one of your daughters ends up pregnant out of wedlock, you might consider stoning her?
Mobius 1 raises some excellent points. He reminds me of the following:
Those people who have very limited (or no) sexual encounters by the time they are young adults are often overwhelmed with the anticipation of sex or the intensity of sex, jumping to the conclusion that sex = true love. The all-too-easy matching of real-life penises and vaginas thus leads to many "star" personalities getting married to "square" personalities, the wedding occurring just as that huge burst of sexual excitement is about to start wearing off. "Oh my God! What happened? We don't have anything in common except our matching penis and vagina!"
The solution to this (and I admit that it's not a perfect solution, because I'm talking of the real world) is that young adults should have well-protected sex with at least a couple partners before committing to "the one." This allows one to put sex in the proper perspective when evaluating potential long-term mates. Sex is great for decades when one chooses a largely compatible partner. Otherwise, sex is a mere novelty, and it eventually loses much of its luster.
The Bible is obsessed with sexuality, and much of the "advice" it offers is bizarre, as documented here http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sex/long.htm . The Bible says nothing about being careful to marry someone who is truly compatible with you in terms of emotions, personality and interests. This lack of Bible attention to OTHER aspects of relationships is not surprising, because back when the Bible was written, women were treated as property and they were expected to function primarily as baby-making and baby-raising machinery. This is yet another reason why I would never refer a confused teenager to the Bible for advice on sex (or love).
Erik wrote "The sex ed that you speak of leads them to immorality.”
That is simply not born out by the facts. It's not only wrong, but a false syllogism.
Which is why the smart move is to, as Erich says, to have a few different partners, until you decide you want a mate for life. A better prepared individual will not make so many mistakes when it comes to sex, love, and infatuation.
Infatuation is what most 'protected' people feel when they have sex for the first time without proper education on the matter. Since I got out there, had the education at the young age, I didn't have to learn the hard way that sex doesn't equal love. Am I going to cheat on the girl I'm with now, because I've had sex ed? No, but you imply that I will anyway, because sex ed, according to you, aspires to teach young men to fornicate willy nilly, as long as they wear a condom, so I, by your opinion, am a walking penis just ready to chase tail
Funnily enough, your bible also propagates that tactic, but without respect to the woman. And without the birth control aspect. Miidianite virginal women were taken as concubines by the Israelites in the old testament…Wasn't that all about promiscuity and sex? What a lovely moral lesson.
I'm sorry (not really) but if you continue down this road of 'logic', you'll never be able to salvage your argument here.
"Can you show me an example (scientific example) of the gay gene?"
Homosexual, as well as bisexual, behavior is widespread in the animal kingdom. Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species and the motivations for and implications of their behaviors have yet to be fully understood as most species have yet to be studied.[3] A 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior, not necessarily sex, has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.
God Done IT!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ani…
Erik Brewer:
The first thing that I want you to know is that I believe in the creator God of the Bible. I know that you believe as well, however the attitude that comes through when you post on this site is all wrong. Obviously you harbor a lot of anger towards those who hold liberal points of view. Maybe you feel that they are part of the lie you believed before you believed God. Whatever the reason, I want to urge you to back off. Turn off the computer and spend some time searching your heart. Here are some comments you have posted:
“This is typical among free thinkers, they do not see what is there written in black in white and they make up their own ideas.”
“I was waiting for the character attacks and name calling, very common among liberals and free thinkers. If you cannot beat the argument try to smear the one with the argument.”
These comments reveal much bitterness towards men and women who hold liberal points of view (not just against the points of view). Keep in mind that all people have been created in the image of God. Look at Genesis 9:6, this indicates that whatever you do to any person here on earth (including verbal or written attack), it is as if you are doing it to God himself.
You may believe that you are just stating facts and not making attacks, but look at what you wrote here:
“Be careful about the vulgar language that comes out of your mouth. The Bible speaks on that issue and it is not good. Matthew 12:34-37 34 “You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35 ‘The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.’”
Erik, don’t you know that that passage is not directed towards non-Christians but towards the Pharisees, the religious leaders? Those religious leaders thought they knew it all and thought they had the authority to condemn others. Specifically, they thought they could attribute the works of God done by Jesus to Satan. This is why Jesus condemned them in the passage you cited. How dare you use this passage in reference to vulgar language and against a set of people who claim not to believe the Bible? This passage has much more to do with you than it does with them.
I am sure you know that only God can change someone’s heart so that they see the truth of the Bible. This means that your attacks are not accomplishing anything. Attacking those who believe differently than you do will only serve to frustrate both you and them. Instead, you might try looking for elements of truth and beauty in what they believe. (They are there, whether you believe it or not). Then you might have some common ground; something to actually talk about instead of worthless bickering.
By the way, my anti-spam word is hopeful. Appropriate, I think.
Check out this recent post by Ebonmuse (of "Daylight Atheism") on the topic of polygamy:
Ebonmuse then directs us to the following passages, among many others:
For the full post, visit Daylight Atheism.
• mandrellian
Why are homosexuals so insistent on getting curriculum in public schools that “teach” (brainwash) little kids (why do they not try with grown people who can think for themselves?)? You know why, because they need new “converts” and in order to do that they prey on young minds that are forming. Get them hooked when they are young (McDonald’s motto). Of course you are not going to respond because you do not have any other arguiment except for the ones that your buddies have already used. As I said, “free thinkers” all think alike.
Again, watch your words because they reveal what kind of heart you have and if you use nasty words then that reveals what kind of heart that you have. Have your gay days at home and not at public schools. Have your beloved gay pride parades at home, why do you have to force it upon the public?
Tell the truth and stop telling lies, either you are telling lies or you yourself have been deceived. Condoms protect 98% against pregnancies but nowhere near that well against STD’s.
Here is a thought for you (can you think outside the box?). Illegal drugs are illegal because they are dangerous (they can kill you). According to your method of teaching sex ed, we should teach kids how to use illegal drugs in a “safer” way. You say that kids will have sex anyway (glorifying immorality) so they need to have “safer” sex (which any sex outside of marriage puts you at risk). Your argument “since kids are going to use illegal drugs anyway, let’s teach them how to do it in a safer way”. Would that ever be taught in schools? Of course not. Same logic with your sex ed!
So you admit that there is a better way than your so called sex ed!!!! I was waiting for that. I do not gamble but if I did I would play the bests odds (can you get better than 100%?) I am a realist; I know people will be disobedient to God because of sin. That does not mean that we should encourage immorality, it means that we should discourage it because it is already a problem. Again, condoms do not protect the way that some claim (anywhere from 30% to 92%). Those are not good odds. There are other STD’s that condoms do not protect against at all. Again, you are putting teens at risk by encouraging immorality. Think in a rational way (you are a free thinker aren’t you?). Immorality is unprotected sex, If you practice morality then you will be protected at all times.
As I said “free thinkers” are free as long as you agree with them but if you have a different/better opinion they turn into very narrow minded thinkers!!!
• Erich Vieth
Here is your problem. You assume that a married couple cannot use condoms (remember 98% effective against pregnancies). Since they practice morality then they are not in danger of STD’s so they do not need “protection” against STD’s.
By the way, it is not based on “my” interpretation. The Bible has ONE interpretation. Be careful with the type of Birth control. There are some that stop fertilization but then there are others that allow fertilization but do not allow the embryo to implant, that is murder. You can find out which is which with a little research.
Abortion is murder, I know that the liberal argument is always “what about rape and incest?” Look at how many abortions are done because of rape and incest, not even 1%. So 99% of abortions are done because of “other” reasons.
Homosexuality is a direct attack on society. The bedrock of society is the family (Look in Genesis and you will see that God built society starting with a husband and his wife). Homosexuals are directly attacking the foundation of society and as you know if the foundation is broken then the building will fall. I do not want society to crumble but if the foundation is attacked and destroyed then you know what the results will be. People can try to destroy STD’s (AIDS) all that they want but they will not succeed as long as they are disobedient to God (promoting immorality). You know that the worse thing about immorality is the fact that innocent people have to suffer because of the sins of others. The baby born with AIDS because the mother and father were immoral is victim. I do not want more victims therefore I fight against immorality.
Again, these are not my ideas, these are God’s ideas and I am just the messenger.
• Vicki Baker
You are reading what is not there when I am just telling you what is written in black and white. It does not take a genius to see that one is making stuff up (you) and I am seeing what is there. You can assume all day long but the facts are there, why not use them? She is stoned because she is practicing immorality (she is engaged, study what that means in Jewish history). If the two who practice immorality are not punished then their immorality will spread. Also there is a victim here, the man who was engaged to her. She showed her true “face” by committing immorality.
I just want you to “think” a little bit. Assuming is not thinking!!!
Againm you are reading into what is being said. He never said “sleep with or rape” those women. Look at the whole context of the passage as well as why God says to put to death the Midianites. Learn how to study and think instead of running to someone who has grabbed a verse without trying to understand what is there (a pattern among “free thinkers”). Having concubines was not God’s idea, in fact they were sinning against God when they took concubines. Not many in Israel had concubines though so do not assume that it was rampant (assumption brings all kinds of errors).
I will never threaten anyone. God on the other hand does. I want to warn people of the danger ahead. So you are against warning people of immanent danger, nice!
• Mobius 1
I know that the Bible is the literal Word of God. Every promise that He has said has come true and the future ones will as well. I hope that you live long enough to see them. His Word says that He will change a person’s heart/mind/life and He has done it over and over again in every generation. He also said that Israel would not be wiped out and they have not been since their creation (although many have tried).
All I have brought is fact. You guys have brought a lot of fiction. Look at Vicki’s reading in to what she wants to see in the Scriptures.
God is in the business of relationships (good/holy ones). When you step outside of His blessing you also step outside of His protection.
Trial and error in marriage/sexuality is ridicoulous. God has a better way, His way. He will bring the right woman to the right man at the right time. They will marry and live in marriage according to God’s Word/plan. I l have lived it and live it everyday and know many, many others who have and are following the same path. My friend, it works but you have to step out on faith and try it.
There is no paradox in hating sin and loving the sinner. If you can’t understand that then I would advise you to use that “free thinking” brain of yours to think a little. The reason that there are gay animals is because of the fall of mankind into sin!!! Homosexuality is sin. Homosexuality is a choice. People may be more inclined to homosexuality than others, I understand that. Should we excuse murders because they are more inclined to rage and anger? No way, why? Because murder is a choice just like homosexuality is a choice. It is all about choices.
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• Mark Tiedemann
You are assuming again. It is clear that this woman had a chance to cry out for help but she did not, she consented to the act. Read what is there. I know you do not want to admit it because your argument crumbles when you have to admit the truth of what is there. Sorry man, take your loss and move on.
Erich
The Bible does guide us in the art of sexuality. You finally admit that yourself, sex ed from the Bible, you finally got it. It is not bizarre. Do not confuse what you do not understand with bizarre. The Bible teaches that God is the author of marriage so He initiates it at the right time between the right people. He knows better than you do my friend, I know that is hard for you to admit.
• Mark Tiedemann
Sex ed that glorifies immorality (putting condom in a teen’s hand) is wrong because you give teens false security. Again condoms do not protect the way that it is portrayed.
• Mobius 1
I do not want used goods and neither does my wife. Sex before marriage is used goods. God has given us the gift of virginity to share with husband and wife in marriage so when you try things out before hand then you do not have anything to give to your husband/wife. I would rather learn how to have sex with my wife then have her or I come into the marriage with our dirty experiences.
Wow, you read into everything don’t you. Can you not read the words in black and white on the page? There is no mention of a concubine here. Also God does not teach the idea of having concubines (living together before marriage is like having a concubine by the way). He teaches marriage between husband and wife! Learn how to read and you will know that.
• Ben
No God did not create homosexuality. The animal kingdom was cursed along with mankind because of sin!!! Read the Bible for yourself for a change and you might see that.
Plus you have not shown the “gay” gene!!!
•
Monica Kozeny
I am so glad that you believe in God. I apologize if I come off strong. I love God and love people and that is why I speak out. Sin is killing people and immoral people who practice sin are promoting their lifestyle to no end. This causes innocent people to suffer. God always wants to protect the innocent. As a believer I am called to be salt. Salt stops decay among other things. Sin causes decay so I must speak out against sin (decay). I love the way believers are told to be quiet while immoral people are commended for preaching their way of life in the streets (homosexual gay pride parades).
From what I have seen, liberals are the most anti-God people on this earth. They promote their agenda for everyone to hear. I, the one who has the Truth of the Word of God, am expected to sit back and not get involved. I am against the liberal argument and not he liberal himself (love the sinner but hate the sin). I apologize for coming off strong. I am called to defend the Word of God and I will do it.
I like the way that you defend those who attack me but chastise me for pointing out what was obvious.
Pharisees were not Christians, they were non-Christians. Please do not equate religious with Christian. God is not impressed by religious people. He wants people who will follow Him completely. I have never condemned anyone. The Word of God however has ALREADY CONDEMED SIN. If you do not like that then your problem is not with me it is with God (please work it out). This is a direct quote against vulgar language and much much more.
Again I am attacking the ideas. I am sorry if I can off a little strong. I have to stand up for what the Word says and take on the enemies of Jesus Christ (study Covenant and you will know what I am talking about). Those who speak against the Word of God and Jesus Christ are enemies of God so I must speak. I do it to introduce them to the Truth. If I remain silent then they will not hear the Word.
I appreciate your comment. By the way a little bit of poison poisons the entire glass of clean pure water.
• Erich Vieth
Again, God never called people to take concubines. Can you show me a direct quote that says that? God created marriage between 1 man and 1 woman.
"Seven hundred wives!" "Three hundred concubines!" Damn, it IS good to be the king!
Erik Brewer says above: "The Bible has ONE interpretation."
If this were true, one wonders why there are thousands of competing Christian denominations, synods, and sects all differing primarily in their interpretation of some point or other of The Bible.
What of the Jewish, Zoroastrian, and Muslim sects that all also claim this unique, correct interpretation of the Bible?
What about Herman Cummings, who claims to be the "foremost terrestrial authority on the book of Genesis." and vocally denounces many common fundamentalist ideals.
• Dan Klarmann
People can be wrong (are wrong many times) because of the sin factor. Man being wrong does not make the Bible wrong. God has One train of thought and develops it in His Scriptures. He also gives the Holy Spirit to born again Christians so that they can understand God’s thought.
If the Scriptures are studied in a systematic way with the revelation of the Holy Spirit then the right interpretation can be made. Many times people rush through a passage and try to give their own interpretation of what God says. Just let God speak, you will be amazed.
Erik wrote:—"Why are homosexuals so insistent on getting curriculum in public schools that “teach” (brainwash) little kids (why do they not try with grown people who can think for themselves?)? You know why, because they need new “converts” and in order to do that they prey on young minds that are forming."
Bullshit.
The best way to overcome fear of a group people know little or nothing about is to educate people about that group. You dispell fear and hate in the glaring light of information. That's why they call it Enlightenment. In exactly the same way African-Americans insisted on black studies programs in the 70s, so the majority population would get the information needed to stop believing all the stereotypes and misinformation put out by true propagandists. The same way American Indians pushed for serious courses on their history, so Americans in general would stop acting as if all they ever wanted to do was kill, scalp, and hunt buffalo. To learn about someone is to learn not to fear them. A lesson obviously lost on you.
You say you do not hate gays—yet in putting forth this bile, you paint a picture of them that can only produce fear if believed, and fear leads to hate, and hate leads to violence, and we all know where that ends up. Your doing your level, christian best to make sure your children never know about the boogie men you seem bent on seeing around every textbook.
I think this has passed the point of entertaining.
"The Bible has ONE interpretation." You should consider the many faces of Christianity: http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/29/the-m….
Just a reminder that the example of "homosexual brainwashing in public schools" that Erik linked to was actually from a private religious school. Another example of grumpypilgrim's comment above. Is Erik suggesting that the government should interfere with the curricula of private religious schools who are not teaching his interpretation of the Bible?
Another question for Erik: do you think death by torture (stoning) is an appropriate punishment for adultery? Why or why not?
"Read the Bible for yourself for a change and you might see that."
Erik, with all due respect, I never want to be anything like you or any other religious extremists such as Phelps and Bin Laden. I refuse to be part of your Cruel (imaginary) God's Kingdom. So I'm keeping the bible away from myself and my loved ones, and when I go to hotels I use the bible pages to clean my holy regions. (anti-spam word = irked)
Ben, there's an invention called toilet paper. 😀
This is where I get the conceited feeling from, whenever you post. You assume you're even posting the truth, when really you're just spouting right wing propaganda and young earth creationist bullshit.
1. The bible is not true, because, in practice and research, the prophecies that come from my dog are more accurate than the bible. You seem to forget that the bible was written a few decades after all the events supposedly happened, and that it was written over a few more decades by different people. Shit was added, taken out, misconstrued, and its an overall grabbag of shit.
Ever heard of Tyre? According to the bible, it was supposed to be completely leveled, and turned into a desolate wasteland, never to be settled again, ever. Well now…Go take some time to google it. It still exists, and is thriving. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html Should dampen your words on the prophecy part a bit, but I doubt you'll look.
Wait…wait just a minute, did you call all women who have had sex before marriage 'used goods'? You incredibly sexist male, your bible was written during a time when women were considered inferior.
I know a certain brunette who would be happy to castrate you and cast your useless junk into a vat of hydrochloric acid, and I hope your wife realizes your sexist shit before she ends up another baby-machine.
Ah, but progress scares you…Getting children educated about sex, pregnancy prevention, and std's violates your sensibilities. How come, then, do I see educated people making educated decisions about having sex, not having kids when they can't support them, and making relationships that last, when your touted abstinence only sex ed is responsible for the rise in teen pregnancy?
http://ari.ucsf.edu/science/reports/abstinence.pd… will take you to a summary of AO versus comprehensive sex ed.
Sorry (not really), but AO fails. Exceptional failure. Stop supporting something patently hazardous for our youth, you sexist pig.
• Mark Tiedemann
Big propaganda term used here, “educate”. Hitler “educated” the Germans about the Hebrews, Lenin and Stallion also “educated” the Russians about communism etc. History goes on and on about your “education”. Cut through the rhetoric and you see “education” for you really means propaganda.
Here you go again comparing genetics with choices. African Americans have no choice but to be that way because that is the way they are born. Homosexuals, on the other hand, make a choice to be homosexual every single day. Comparing apples to oranges is a great propaganda tool that you guys use. Better to compare homosexuals to murders because both are a choice and both cause terrible destruction.
Calling things out as they are is not hateful. If homosexuality leaves death and destruction in its wake and you guys cover that up and I am trying to warn people then who is the vile one? Answer that question for me.
• grumpypilgrim
The argument that you have is based on the new age (actually old age to tell the truth because there is nothing new under the sun), I am talking about relativism. Just because you believe something with all of your heart does not make it true. You have to get over that barrier in order to realize the reality of life!!!
• Vicki Baker
Please read some more in the article and you will see that the video is a training tool for public school teachers to teach in many, many public schools all over the country. Also, speaking in other parts of the world (America is not the center of the universe), I lived in a country where homosexual activists introduced manuals in public schools without anyone’s (not even the minister of education) permission. The course was terrible. Do you know where they started? Kindergarten!!! It is terrible to see how sly and deceitful that they can be.
One, Vicki, I know a loaded question when I see one but I will answer this for you because I want to help. In Israel there was a theocracy set up by God. He chose to punish sexual sin by death. Why? Because immorality leads to death (STD’s and other problems). Also sin (immorality) spreads. The old saying “it takes 2 to tango” fits well here. If not punished then it will overtake a nation. Plus those who had thought of commiting sexual sin or actually done it without being caught, he/she would have to watch the guilty punished, thinking, I should be in that position. As you see, God punishes sexual immorality with death. Plus there is a victim in adultery, the spouse whose heart/live was torn apart. Please do not forget about the victim!!! Today we do not have a theocracy but God is still in control. We do not punish immorality with death; in fact the reason that we have the Gospel (Good News of Jesus Christ) is to help people get out of the mess of immorality and God wants to forgive them of their mistake. God still punishes immorality with death (how do people get STD’s and what do they lead to?). The problem with immorality today is the same; it spreads and brings death and destruction.
• Ben
I am not Phelps or Laden my friend. I do not want anyone killed for their mistakes. I want them to repent and follow Jesus Christ because that is what God wants for them. Look you can do whatever you want. Attacking me does no good. I am just the messenger. In fact if you would read those pages that you use inappropriately then you might know that all through out history people like you have persecuted the messengers of God’s message. I feel sorry for your kids. You know, the Bible actually speaks to you on this subject when Jesus says,
Matthew 23:13
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
I know that there is some tough language here but this is reality and Jesus Christ means it. If you have a problem please take it up with Him. He wants you to repent and your family as well. Repentance is a change of mind that leads to a change of heart which leads to a changed life.
• Mobius 1
You assume that I am right winged, bad assumption. The problem with you guys is that you assume way too much!!!! I believe in a young earth because that is what God’s Word says. If you do not want to believe that then that is your choice. You can follow the cult of evolution and believe their doctrine if you want to, it is your choice. Instead of being open minded and allowing others to believe differently than you, you are closed minded, come on Mr. Free thinker!!!
Prove one OT prophesy that has come true wrong. There are a few OT prophecies that have not happened yet but they will. Just because they have not happened yet does not mean that they are not true. Be very careful about your arguments. Can you prove where stuff was added? You just have your ideas which frankly, are not worth much. Do you know how the scribes copied the OT? They would number the words and on the copied manuscript if they did not have the same word in the middle of the document then the entire copied document would be burned. They were very persistent. Study a little bit before you make such bold accusations. With the Tyre thing, did you ever think that a new city can be named with the name of an old one? Ever heard of New York? Ever heard of Moscow? Do you know how many Moscows are in the USA? Think Mr. Free thinker!!!
Here we go again, both men and women who have sex before marriage are used goods. You guys are the best at misrepresenting quotes. I wonder if you can read well, or do you intentionally misuse quotes? It happens so much that I am leaning to the second choice!
Man you got a lot of hate. God can take that away. He did it for me and can do it for anyone. In God’s eyes, men and women are equal, He created them both in the image of Himself!!!
I am all about progress but what you guys say by progress means immorality and all sorts of evil that will destroy society and not progress it.
Relationships that last are based on the Word of God and not on what you “think, feel, or believe” because those things can change like the weather.
Thanks for all of the name calling. Right out of the liberal handbook. Keep up the good work and you might get an A in the course!!!
Erik Brewer has managed to invalidate every possible avenue of meaningful communication with anyone here. He has shown himself incapable of making fine distinctions. I'm not sure he can make rough distinctions. It's his way (or, as he might say, god's way) or the highway. We have here a perfect example of what might be termed cul-de-sac thinking. If something disagrees with him, it is (a) an assumption (b) propaganda (c) apples and oranges or (d) immorality.
Mr. Brewer. You have catalogued for us a prescription for policies that would render this world even worse to live in than it is. Proof as a concept has no meaning for you. You have elected to rely on the Bible for absolutely everything and there is no room for anything else. It should come as no surprise to you that people disagree with your conclusions.
Comes a point when it is time to simply stop wasting everyone's time. It is not even so much that you are wrong, but that your entire world view is so far out of whack with reality that there is no basis for any critical analysis. You ask us to provide counterarguments to positions which are de facto ridiculous and offer proofs for things you have already denied are real.
If you have a shred of understanding involving physics on any level, I will leave you with a question to ponder. In all likelihood you won't understand the implications, but you might.
If, as you believe, the universe is young, on the order of 6000 years old, and it was all created in a flash by the almighty—created to operate as it now does—then my question is this: where did all the heat go?
Don't answer quickly. Think about it. And I hope you have a good time doing so.
The heat went to hell where it's used to grill sinners like you, Mark. God would never waste good energy. We should all take him as a role model.
What a silly question…
I second Mark's thought. It's time to move on. I don't accept authority as a reason for anything at all. As long as Erik won't address that issue of why he presumes the literal truth of the Bible, nothing is really worth discussing.
I do appreciate everyone's time and effort, though. I think we can clearly see the fault line between fundamentalist and skeptical thinkers: Fundamentalists start with a theory and then spin facts to fit the pre-ordained theory. Skeptics test facts, keeping those that seem solid, then develop theories that make sense of those facts.
Two ships passing in the night, it seems.
The final straw was Erik's refusal to fully describe his idea of sexual utopia. What would the government and church do to keep youngsters (and adults) chaste? Whatever he would have come up with, he wouldn't have been able to point to any real life place in the world where such an approach is utilized, except perhaps in some areas where the Taliban are in still charge.