At DI, we have an extremely conservative fellow visiting the blog these days. He’s trying to convert all of us to his reactionary world view. He clings to his Bible as a book of literal truths and he seems to love everything that Sarah Palin ostensibly stands for. I’d like to issue a challenge to this fellow, who goes by the name “Erik.” To me, he represents many people out there who seem to believe that if you pretend something isn’t important, it isn’t important, even if it IS important. This includes such critical topics as as Iraq, the cobbled together all-too-human nature of the Bible, Global Warming and, of course, sex education.
Please tell me which of the following sexual education topics you would rather that our children not know anything about. Please tell me in what specific ways we should keep children, including teenagers, in the dark.
These topics are actually the chapters of a popular book that I have read. I would wholeheartedly recommend this book to any parent seeking a sex education book for their children: It’s Perfectly Normal: Changing Bodies, Growing Up, Sex, and Sexual Health (2004), by Robie H. Harris (Author), Michael Emberley (Illustrator). Here are the topics:
Part I – What is Sex
Girl or Boy, Female or Male (sex and gender)
Making Babies (Sexual Reproduction)
Strong Feelings (Sexual Desire)
Making Love (Sexual intercourse)
Straight and Gay (Heterosexuality and homosexuality)
Part II – Our Bodies
The Human Body (All kinds of bodies)
Outside and Inside (The Female Sex Organs)
Outside and Inside (The Male Sex Organs)
Words (Talking about Bodies and Sex)
Part III – Puberty
Changes and Messages (Puberty and Hormones)
The travels of the Egg (Female Puberty)
The Travels of the Sperm (Male Puberty)
Not all at Once! (Growing and Changing Bodies)
More Changes (Taking care of your Body)
Back and Forth: (Up and Down – New and Changing Feelings)
Perfectly Normal: (Masturbation)
Part IV – Babies and Families
All sorts of Families (Taking care of babies and kids)
Instructions from Mom and Dad (The Cell, genes and chromosomes)
A kind of Sharing: (Cuddling, kissing, touching and sexual intercourse)
Before Birth: (Pregnancy)
What a Trip! (Birth)
Other Arrivals (More ways to have a baby and family, including adoption)
Part V – Decisions
Planning Ahead (postponement, abstinence and birth control)
Laws and Rulings (abortion)
Part VI – Staying Healthy
Talk about it (sexual abuse)
Checkup (Sexually Transmitted Diseases)
Scientists Working Day and Night (HIV and AIDS)
Staying Healthy (Responsible Choices).
So what is it, Erik? Should we avoid teaching our children about puberty? Sexual feelings? Masturbation? Shall we keep our kids from knowing anything about any of these sex-ed topics? Truly, tell me exactly how ignorant you want to keep America’s children and teenagers. Should we keep this book out of America’s public libraries? Should this book even be sold at all? You are aware, aren’t you, that many parents are so mentally stymied about sex (because their own parents thought it better to keep them ignorant) that they don’t have a clue about how to communicate these sex-ed ideas to their kids. Shouldn’t those parents have access to a book like this to provide them with clear information about compelling topics?
Here’s a caveat to those people who want to live in ignorance: you can peek in this book at Amazon–beware that you might learn something.
For a little journey that is pretty amazing, though not unexpected, take a look at the comments regarding this book at Amazon and you’ll be Amazed at the cultural chasm displayed. This book typically gets either 5 stars (from people who want their kids to be informed about these important topics) or 1 star (by people who want to keep their kids ignorant about sex). Too bad Bristol Palin didn’t have a book like this a year ago.
Because you might actually learn something important by reading it, It’s Perfectly Normal is one of the top ten challenged books of 2007, according to the Economist.
projektleiterin ,
Silly me! Of course! Pardon me for being so simplistic.
(And my anti-spam word this time, appropriately enough, is TOASTED)
• Mark Tiedemann
It is funny but the so called “free thinkers” get so upset when someone disagrees with them and now they are trying to turn their own motto against me. It is God’s way or the highway. You do not have to believe it, that is your choice. I find it ironic that “free thinkers” are free until it comes to God and then they want to close that door tight. Where is the freedom? My big toe does more free thinking than you guys. Why don’t you call this blog think like we do or else, because in essence that is your argument. Pointing out the fallacies in a person’s argument is all that I am doing and the “free thinkers” hate it when someone proves them wrong with evidence when they go on assumptions. Sorry but I have to call it as it is. People can disagree until the end of time with what the Bible says but that does not change the reality of things. People have tried to disprove the Word of God (the Bible) from the beginning of time but they have not been successful. People come and go but the Word of God remains, sorry but your argument again is just wrong. I am not surprised that people disagree with the Bible, that was Satan’s tactic form the beginning and he is still working even today.
If people do not agree with “free thinkers” then they try to turn everything around with deception and misquotes. Sorry that you think people who do not agree with you waste your time. Go ahead and surround yourself with only those who think like you (that is what Hitler and Stalin did). If you cannot argue against what I say then just admit it and move on, don’t dress up your loss with rhetoric (liberal school training).
• Erich Vieth
All of the claims of the OT have come to pass as God said that they would and there are a few that will. How much more proof do you need?
Also God promises that He will change the life of a sinner and set him free from his life long slavery to sin. He has done that in my life and in the lives of many others. What more proof do you need? He promised that Israel would never cease to exist and it still exists today, what more proof do you need?
Just avoiding the facts is not a solution but that is what skeptics seem to do. I have explained the solution about sexuality. I know that people are stubborn and do not want to listen to God. In fact they think that they know better than God about life. If they want to think that way then God removes His barrier of protection and lets them do what they want. He warns them of the consequences and gives them the choice. They choice to induldge the desires of their flesh and then when they start reaping the consequences they want to blame God, when in reality it is their own falt. That is mankind’s situation today. The solution is to return to God in repentance and faith, living according to His Word. I know you do not want to hear that but it is the Truth. I have seen prostitutes, drug addicts, pimps, thieves, etc. come to Jesus Christ in repentance and now they are model citizens, investing in the lives of others so that they too can have a changed life. I know that is hard for you to imagine but it happens on a daily basis. I want all to experience that even though I know that most will not because of their own choice.
I will not be silent because I have the message of hope for a suffering world. I hope that God has used some of this to speak to some of you. I am here to help because someone once helped me.
"I hate homosexuality but not the homosexuals who practice it."
Isn't that a bit like saying you hate black skin but not the black people who wear it?
"The Bible has ONE interpretation."
Well that's the entire profession of theology taken care of then… :-))
[anti-spam word: "darwin". Yay! Go, Darwin!]
Peter Magellan
The problem with most theology is that the Bible is rarely studied. Mostly students of theology study about the Bible, there is a huge difference, I hope you realize that.
Obviously you have not read most of the stuff I have written. You cannot compare genetics (black skin) to homosexuality (a choice). Either you are deceived or you are deliberately trying to deceive others, which is it?
Tyre was never razed, that's the whole point. It still occupies the same space, and is not a desolate area. Of course there's multiple cities with the same name, but the same location?
I've already proven that the OT prophecy of Tyre is false. You can keep shifting the goalposts, you're only proving that you can't admit to being wrong.
And, for the umpteenth time, men and women are NOT goods. They are people, regardless of sexual encounters. Calling someone a used good is a great way to end up in the hospital.
Nevermind that sexual orientation IS NOT A CHOICE, your statements about it reek of bigotry.
Erik wrote -Man you got a lot of hate. God can take that away. He did it for me and can do it for anyone. In God’s eyes, men and women are equal, He created them both in the image of Himself!!!
You think I have hate now? If only you knew that I didn't type out of hatred, but rather exasperation. Your circular logic irritates me, and I type in a rather inflammatory tone when irritated. Don't confuse hate with irritation. I was, however, filled with hate when I was a christian. Don't go with a 'not a true christian' argument, because thats the 'no true scotsman' fallacy, which I'd be happy to show you.
In gods eyes, men and women are equal? Genesis, Eve is responsible for original sin, throughout the whole book, women are blamed for most of the bad shit, and one is even turned into a pillar of salt for looking back at her homeland. Hell, a 'harlot' is even responsible for some shit in revelations. Think women are still equal? Yes? Read your own damn book again, without religious presumptions. And even made in his own image? Didn't know god was a transvestite. Ah yes…androgyny. Right.
Erik wrote -I am all about progress but what you guys say by progress means immorality and all sorts of evil that will destroy society and not progress it.
Teaching kids at an appropriate age to use condoms if they're going to have sex ISN'T immoral, it's responsible. IF AO education worked, and teen pregnancy went down, I'd have no argument, but thats not the case.
Comprehensive sexual education DOES NOT promote immorality, it promotes smart decisions about sex. I know it does, because I went through both sets of education in high school. I got comprehensive education first, in the cities, then AO when I moved to the country. Well, AO was a massive failure, and now the administration at my old school is rushing for the comprehensive style. But the government is slow to do so, because of all the faith-based policies our idiot leader is promoting.
You've been refuted many, many times here. Why you return only to be crushed again is the only thing that makes me shake my head.
Oh, and for OT prophecies that have failed, I return you to here http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html . Why don't you do some reading? You might learn something.
And I've decided to start quoting you verbatim, just so you can see how I don't misquote you. Accuse me of doing it again, and your martyr complex will be irrefutably taken away.
Erik has violated the basic rules of courtesy by presuming to preach to us without even an attempt to get to know us as individuals or understand our point of view. We have repeatedly attempted to articulate our various visions of sexual ethics that go beyond his narrow focus on what goes into whose hole when. In return he accuses us of promoting immorality.
He would deliberately withhold or distort information about contraception and safe sex practices from our youth. He preaches that the only way to be free of slavery to sin is through his brand of spiritual salvation. We have seen that Christians are unable to keep to the narrow standards of heterosexual monogamy and abstinence that he advocates. Preachers get caught have sex with gay and straight prostitutes, christian teens get pregnant. While it's great that forgiveness and acceptance, rather than stoning, are now the order of the day, all of us have to deal with the public health implications. We'd just like these "liberated" Christians to get on board with safer sex practices to minimize the harm caused by their behavior.
Erik, how do you know God's will or judgment?
You set up staw man after straw man and knock them down, and when someone points out the circularity of your argument, you say; "it's always Satan's way to deny the Bible."
So, here it is from one theist to another:
Judge not, lest ye too be judged!
There are two new commandments: to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your being, and; to love thy neighbor as you love your self! In these two commandmants, all others before may be faithfully observed.
Let's not judge; for those who would, love God; and love your neighbor as yourself.
Erik wrote, “By the way, if homosexuality is not a choice then how can there be former homosexuals?”
We might just as easily ask, "if heterosexuality is not a choice then how can there be former heterosexuals?" Unfortunately, Erik only notices changes in sexual preference that confirm his narrow belief.
This debate would make a lot more sense if we think of sexuality not as an ON-OFF switch (i.e., someone is either heterosexual or homosexual), but to think of it as a rotary dial. At one end of the dial (let’s designate it with the numeral “1″), a person (i.e., a man or a woman) is sexually attracted to women only; at the other end of the dial (let’s designate it with the numeral “9″) , a person (again, a man or a woman) is attracted to men only; in between, a person prefers one sex but has a non-zero level of sexual attraction toward the other sex. Obviously, this rotary dial model of sexuality is more useful than the ON-OFF switch model, because the ON-OFF switch model fails to account for bisexuality, or the occasions when a homosexual (or heterosexual) "chooses" to have heterosexual (or homosexual) sex. The rotary dial model also provides a more useful framework for understanding why some people change their sexual preference sometime during their life.
For example, Erik claims that he knows some homosexuals who “chose” to become heterosexuals, which Erik claims is proof that homosexuality is nothing more than a lifestyle choice. However, there are also many cases of heterosexuals who “chose” to become homosexuals, which, according to Erik’s argument, would demonstrate that heterosexuality is also merely a lifestyle choice. However, a better way to think about people who “choose” a particular sexual preference is not to think of that person as “switching” their preference (the ON-OFF model), but to think of that person as being somewhere near the mid-point of the rotary dial model — say, a 4, 5 or 6 — so that, for them, the notion of “switching” their preference is not nearly as radical as it would be for someone who is a “1″ or a “9″. When thought of in this way, we can see that if a person who is ostensibly "homosexual" “chooses” to become "heterosexual" (or vice versa), it doesn’t necessarily mean that *all* homosexuals (or heterosexuals) are merely making a lifestyle choice; it simply means that for people who are near the mid-point of the rotary dial, sexual preference *is* mostly a lifestyle choice, whereas it is not for people at the polar ends of the scale. In other words, the fact that some formerly "homosexual" people might choose to someday be "heterosexual" (or vice versa), this does not prove that sexual preference is merely a lifestyle choice for *all* people. People should not be pigeonholed in the manner that Erik presumes they can be.
• Vicki Baker
I must bring to your attention the fact that I stumbles onto this site looking for something else. As I read an article I could not help but see the fallacies in the argument that Erich presented. I corrected his mistake. As a result I was attacked from every angle. Read back through and you will see who started the attacks. I am not preaching to you. I am simple sharing what the Word of God says. If the Word is preaching to you then you are not the first to take offense of the Word or the last. People will be against the Word of God until the end of time. They will come and go but the Word of God will remain. Many have tried to destroy It but all have failed. I have seen your point of view over and over in your responses. I have also dealt with your point of view before. As I said, so called “free thinkers” seem to think the same, not much freedom if you ask me. Promoting sex outside of marriage is immorality (God’s definition) and you promote sex outside of marriage in your so called “sex ed” curriculum (see Erich’s manual). You say, “He would deliberately withhold or distort information about contraception and safe sex practices from our youth”. What a major lie!!! I have never said that. Once again many assumtions are being made (as usual). You want to promote condoms which promotes immorality among teens as well as gives them a false sense of protection against STD’s (they do not protect anywhere near 100%). Who is withholding info from whom? God makes us free from the slavery to sin (not my idea). I tried many other ways an none of them worked. I was not born a Christian (no one is) I became one. I was a slave for a long time. God set me free and He changed my life (nothing else can do it). I am a born again Christian and I keep God’s Word not through my own power but through His power, He helps me choose to be obedient every single day. If you have not experienced God’s freedom what gives you the right to deny it? There are many who claim to be Christians yet do not have a relationship with God and have never been born again. A person who has not been born again is not a Christian (God’s standard and judgment, not mine) and if you have not been born again then you cannot obey God’s commands. By the way, glad to know that you sit in the judgment seat, judging people. You do not want to be judged by the Word of God but you want to judge others, what a double standard, all too common among “free thinkers”.
• Mobius 1
Wow, the anger is increasing. Sorry for you, I hope you do not have a heart attack or nervous break down (those are results of too much anger).
Here we go again with the name calling. Children do that when they loose arguments. I would hope that you would be above that, but I guess not.
I have your Tyre response soon enough. A little bit of study will get to the bottom of your false statement.
Ok, maybe used goods was a bit strong. God has given us the special gift of virginity to be given to our spouses on our wedding night (we have nothing more special to offer). If you cheaply through away your virginity then that which is supposed to be a gift for your spouse looses its significance because it was given away. Sex has, in a way, become used goods (your genitals to be frank). Please watch out with the hospital remarks. I have the Lord of lords who has promised to defend me from all of my enemies (just giving you a fair warning).
Homosexuality is a choice, like it or not, facts are facts. Murder is a choice, using illegal drugs is a choice etc.
I have not used in circular arguing, rather I have pointed out a lot of fallicies. Instead of admitting the facts you try to turn things around (without proof of course). If you were filled with hate then the Bible says that you were not a Christian, but a liar, deceiving yourself.
1 John 4:20-21 20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
I do not think that you can argue against what is written in black and white. You can try and I am sure that you will but you will loose.
Look in Genesis, ch1, at how they were created. Do not blame God for men’s sins after the fall of mankind into sin. Get your facts straight!!! The woman who looked back directly disobeyed God and paid the price for HER disobedience. Again, you are missing the facts to try and prove a nonexistent point. The word is Revelation (there is only one revelation of Jesus Christ). I assume that you are not a details person because you sure have missed many of them, important to understanding Scripture. Oh, I forgot, you do not want to understand it. You already have your mind made up!!! About the image of God, study what the word image means (in Hebrew) but I am sure that you knew that. Again, pay attention to the details and you might learn something. I do pay attention to the Book but YOU obviously do not!!! Keep writing to show us. Putting a condom in a teen’s hand provokes him/her to sex. Plus he/she has a false sense of security because condoms do not protect against STD’s 100%. You want to put lives at risk when I want to save them (100% is always 100%).
Now when promoting abstinence, you must realize that apart from Jesus Christ (ie His power in a person) it is impossible to be obedient to God and remain pure so leaving Jesus Christ out of the equation is a set up for failure. That is why I teach sex ed based on what the Word of God says, the best manual there is!!!
I have been attacked with misquotes and half truths (you call that crushed). I know that you free thinkers confuse many things but reading what you wrote just made me laugh. I return because I want to set the facts straight as I have been doing. I will continue to share God’s message boldly. Some will listen and other will not. Jesus did the same thing. He taught the ones who were interested and let the others walk away. You can make your own choice (right or wrong).
If you misquote me I will call you out on it (as I have done). Don’t misquote me and I will not have to call you out. Stick to the facts and we will not have any problems. Instead of running to what someone else has written about the Bible, it would not be a bad idea for you to open It and study for yourself. Study what is written in black and white for a change instead of being misguided by others who are misguided as well.
• Tim Hogan
You wrote “Erik, how do you know God’s will or judgment?”
I am so glad that you asked that question. The will of God along with the judgment of God are found in the Word of God. As you study the Bible with an objective mindset then you will see His will open up.
Satan’s way is to deny the Word of God or distort It. Read Genesis 3:1-6 very carefully. Also read Matthew 4:1-11. You will see Satan’s tactics are to deny or distort the Word of God. He will even use the Word of God to try to deceive you. There is not straw-man argument in saying that distorting or denying the Word of God is of Satan. Read what is there and there is no need for an argument.
You wrote “Judge not, lest ye too be judged!”
I wish I had a dollar for every time someone misrepresented these words of Jesus. You must understand that there is a difference between judging and discerning. We have every right to discern good from evil. Calling murder what it is, sin, is not being judgmental. God has already judged murder (along with all sin, ie calling sin what it is). If we agree with God and call sin what it is then we are not judging. Calling homosexuality a sin is not being judgmental, because God calls it a sin. As a theist, you need to devote more time to studying the Scriptures objectively. I can give you some tips if you would like. The reason I warn people about sin and its dangers is because I love God and my neighbor. How could I say I love my neighbor if I let him destroy his life in sin and never say anything? That is not love. That is very mean in fact.
"I must bring to your attention the fact that I stumbles onto this site looking for something else. As I read an article I could not help but see the fallacies in the argument that Erich presented. I corrected his mistake."
Just for the record, Erik, I don't know that I engaged in any sort of fallacy at this post (where you first appeared). Nor do I consider that you "corrected" my "mistake."
What you are referring to is your assertion that in a Bible verse that contained a word that has been carefully and repeatedly translated as "fear," the word means "not fear." You never did provide any sort of linguistic authority for that deft move.
"War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength."
• grumpypilgrim
So you tried talking around the argument of former homosexuals, good liberal tactic, wrong but good.
By the way, the free thinker belief is quite narrow, since I do not follow your liberal religion I am called names and falsely accused of many things, real “unnarrow” view on your part!!!
The reason that you do not want to accept the fact that homosexuality is a choice is because the Bible calls homosexuality a choice and you do not want to agree with the Bible. I understand why you fight it tooth and nail.
So you used a lot of words to prove my point, sexuality is a choice. Thanks but I already knew that!!! All sin is a choice, immorality, homosexuality, murder, stealing, rape, etc. It is all based on a choice. You can be influenced in your choice (ie people convincing you to have sex, homo or hetero). In the end though, it all rests on your choice. You choose not to murder or you choose to murder. According to your argument a pedophile should not be punished because he was “born” that way!!!
As I said, I gave you the etymology of the Word and its original meaning. You gave me your opinion of the meaning of the word fear in the English language. You choose whose argument is better.
Show me where a reputable Biblical scholar indicates that he/she would chose the English word "fear" even though the original word or phrase did not mean fear.
English translation Bibles were meant to be read by those who understand the plain meaning of English words.
Erik wrote-1 John 4:20-21 20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother als
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
Cut your nuts off, and hate your family. Great moral lessons there.
You keep accusing me of hate, after I told you I wasn't even close to being full of hatred against you. It's irritating, but not hateful. Get it right.
Name calling? True enough, but the label fits. You are a sexist, misogynistic pig, who has no business telling kids to ignore scientific data in favor a 2000 year old dogma that is laughably outdated.
Willfully withholding educative materials about their own bodies, whats happening to them, and how to prevent pregnancy and STD's is beyond morally reprehensible, it's evil.
Erik wrote- Ok, maybe used goods was a bit strong. God has given us the special gift of virginity to be given to our spouses on our wedding night (we have nothing more special to offer). If you cheaply through away your virginity then that which is supposed to be a gift for your spouse looses its significance because it was given away. Sex has, in a way, become used goods (your genitals to be frank). Please watch out with the hospital remarks. I have the Lord of lords who has promised to defend me from all of my enemies (just giving you a fair warning).
Nothing more special to offer? Are you kidding me? How about love? No, wait, you'll say that gods love is more important. Sex isn't the fundamental part of a relationship, it's trust. If you don't trust your spouse, your relationship will crumble.
Sex is special, no doubt, but putting virginity on a pedestal skews the relationship. Isn't enough to love the person for who they are, not just because they're a virgin?
Your god can't protect you. Last time someone put their faith in god for protection in my presence, he got spiked in the face with a hockey puck. Your bible is false, the Revelations ending was fueled seemingly by opium and the resulting hallucinations, and your god is impotent. Why don't you pray for me to be stricken with leprosy? That's a seemingly godly move for him. Wait, he's busy throwing the likeness of his son on pieces of toast and a dog's ass. Wow, big miracles.
Erik wrote – I have not used in circular arguing, rather I have pointed out a lot of fallicies. Instead of admitting the facts you try to turn things around (without proof of course). If you were filled with hate then the Bible says that you were not a Christian, but a liar, deceiving yourself.
No true scotsman fallacy, coming right at you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Calling me a self-deceiving christian, when I believed in that shit, followed the bible to a T, and fell out of it because I took a serious look at what it was, is like saying that all the cherry picking christians out there aren't true christians, because they see the bible as an allegory, not literal.
You went for it anyway, showing your ignorance.
I've given you facts, YOU chose not to look into it.
Here's the data on AO education versus Sex ed. http://www.openeducation.net/2008/09/10/teen-sexu…
Another opinion: http://www.ppacca.org/site/pp.asp?c=kuJYJeO4F&…
Yet another opinion: http://stats.org/stories/contrac_v_abst_dec12_06….
Please, for the sake of argument, please read without your bible in view. Abstinence only sexual education does not work. There's your proof.
To all the ex-Christian people arguing with Erik Brewer,
I really, really hope that muppets like Erik aren't the things that have put you off Christianity. Believe it or not, there are actually some of us out there who are capable of looking at our faith and our opinions and moulding them around what is True. To some this might seem like opportunism or hypocrisy – to me it just makes sense to change what you believe if what you believe is shown to be wrong.
The aim of (most) scientists is to try to establish what is true and what is not – and that is one of the most commendable things that humanity can do. A hell of a lot of scientists won't believe anything until they've got evidence for it, which I suppose is in the nature of science, and hence they fall outside the boundaries of religion. Others are slightly different.
I just wanted to raise something here, which, as I frankly can't be bothered to read all of the myriad comments on this page and the ways in which Erik tries to evade them, may have already been raised. As Christians, we are supposed to believe in God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit. That's sort of the central theme. It really pisses me off when I hear some of my brethren going on about the bloody Bible the whole time, as if something that was written (at the latest) around 1920 years ago has every single answer to every single question that we could have today. Not only that, but behaving as if sexual sin is somehow a "super sin" above all else.
There are many aspects of this modern life which cannot be answered by picking up the Bible and looking through it. That's why God gave us the Holy Spirit (as Christians believe, at least). Our reliance should be on the Holy Spirit, primarily, and NOT the Bible. Ask the Spirit to guide you to something in there, if you want, but ALWAYS question its relevance and NEVER curve the actual exegetical meaning of the text around what you want to believe.
And if you feel your fingers at this point in time burning with the whole argument that "The Spirit would never tell you to do anything which goes against the Word of God as written in the Bible", I would like to respond: Bull. Shit.
Have a look at Leviticus 11. It goes through, in agonising, painstaking detail, all of the things which the Jews were not supposed to eat. These are rules which, by and large, are still followed by religious Jews to this day (no pork, rabbit, etc.), and were certainly observed by Jews such as Peter and the other Apostles around the time that Jesus turned up. After Jesus departs, in Acts 10, it details a vision Peter has from the Spirit, which tells him to eat all those things which, in Peter's "Bible" of the time, he was not absolutely definitely supposed to eat. He even argues with the Spirit, and is told to stop being so bloody stupid.
The point? God can change the rules as He goes along. If you've made the Universe, that's one of the benefits. So ask yourself, Erik Brewer, when given the stark FACT that God creates people as homosexuals, whether or not you should show them love and love and love and more love and love again, or whether you should judge them, force them to deny a core part of who they are and insist that they live their lives depressed and loveless.
Oh, and while we're at it, if you really are a Christian, don't you think there are bigger things to worry about? I'm just thinking about all those people out there who are starving or sick or abused or cast out and need some love in their lives. You know, the same ones that Christ helped out all those years ago?
Erik wrote:—", since I do not follow your liberal religion I am called names "
I know this won't change a thing, but just a point of fact here: it is not because you do not "follow our religion" (we have none) but because your argue like an idiot. We've entertained a number of people on this forum who disagree with the prevailing aesthetic and exchanged ideas with them without ever getting in a huff. You came on this forum having already decided you know everything and have run about smashing into people like a bull in the proverbial china shop wittout regard to fact, logic, any grasp of dialogue, or courtesy. Frankly, because of those things, even if you agreed with my point of view I'd want you as far from any debating team I might run as possible.
You do not know the difference between Assertions Based on Authority and Proof of Claims. You indulge the first as if it is the second and then complain because no one here takes you seriously. If, as you have claimed, you are well-educated, I can only wonder where and to what level, because you have displayed no academic ability here.
But don't for a minute think we are repulsed because you disagree with us. It is more because you are disagreeable, which is very different.
Erik wrote:—"As I said, I gave you the etymology of the Word and its original meaning. You gave me your opinion of the meaning of the word fear in the English language. You choose whose argument is better."
Just so we all know, Erik, what is your definition of Etymology?
Again you do not want to believe the facts, that is your choice. You can choose to be wrong. I choose to accept the facts and believe the Truth. I wish all would do the same but I know that few will. Jesus Himself knew that and warned us all when He said
Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Many will enter the wide gate (believing what they want to believe about God) while few will enter the narrow gate (believing what God says about Himself in black and white). Many does means many and few does mean few!
Sam: Speaking as a never-been-Christian, I appreciate your level-headed input here. Especially after the likes of Erik Brewer.
Is that honestly all you can come up with, Erik? Passing me off as another angry atheist, who never knew the 'true' word of god?
No true scotsman fallacy fits in really well here.
I'm done. You're too far gone to see that you've been crushed repeatedly, but you'll only see my giving up as victory on your part. You haven't won, you've merely deluded yourself into thinking that crossing this dangerous intersection, shrouded in your holy book, will leave you unscathed, when in reality, you're lying on your back, gasping for air. Delirious to the end.
One last time: Abstinence only education has been proven to be ineffective by many independent studies, and the only way to prevent the spread of STD's and stifle teen pregnancy is with comprehensive sexual education. NO WHERE does it promote having sex on a whim, not that you'd care to read into it.
People don't choose to be gay. Men and women, throughout their development cycle in puberty, are either attracted to the opposite or the same sex. It's only through shame that they decide to not act on what feels natural. People like you are what makes gay people miserable. Not sin, not the feelings that they're supposedly doing wrong, its social shame because how they feel isn't the norm. Then people like you ostracize them,
and then you wonder why you're called a bigot.
You might be a closet case, since you're so adamant about homosexuality being a choice. My own gay friends, however, are adamant about it being something they grew into, and very few regret it.
Cities can be built with the same names in different locations, of course, but Tyre, the location itself, was supposed to be a desolate wasteland, never to be settled in again, ever. It. Still. Exists. And is a thriving city. On the same location.
Since you've 'studied' the bible, are there any contradictions? Correct answer is yes. Just look at Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and you'll see that all 4 accounts have different birth stories for jesus, or omit it all together. You'd think they'd all have the same story, unerring accuracy in all details, but they don't. That's an error on a large scale, if they can't even get the 'facts' right.
Like I said, I'm done. I'll watch you get repeatedly trounced, but any more replies, unless you really make an erroneous comment, will not be forthcoming. Enjoy your pigheadedness.
• Mobius 1
The Bible says that those who do not obey God are united in their efforts to draw others away from God. The Bible must be true because all of you guys are united in trying to disprove the Word of God (you will not win though because heaven in earth will pass away but the Word of God will NEVER pass away).
Once again you have proven that you know how to take something out of context and try to distort it for your own evil desires. Have you ever heard of a hyperbole? I am sure that you have no idea what that means because if you did you would know that we use them all the time and they were even more prevelant in the eastern culture of Jesus Christ’s time. Here is an example, try and follow along (I know that it is hard for you to think).
Mark 1:5
5 And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
Of course “all of the country” does not literally mean every single person from there came but it means that many came. A hyperbole is used here. A deliberate exaggeration to prove a point. Hence, when Jesus says that you must “hate” He is using a hyperbole to show that your love for Him (Jesus) when compared with your love for anything else (ie family, friends, own life, etc) love for those things is like hate (cannot be compared) when compared to your love and devotion to Jesus Christ. You see when you study things in context with an understanding of the original language and culture then the Truth that the original author wanted to convey will be made known even to YOU.
Using fowl language and name calling sure seems like hatred to me, but I guess you have your own liberal (no pun intended) view of what hatred is. You even admit to the name calling yourself (name calling is a childish method but if the name fits I guess you wear it).
What is outdated about being protected 100% from STD’s? Our culture, which has sex on the brain, is killing itself everyday with STD’s. Yeah today’s “modern” method of promoting immorality is really working (I hope you understand irony).
I would say deceiving people into thinking that they can be fully protected from STD’s by using condoms is wicked but hey I guess all the “smart” people see something less than 100% as being better!!!
If your relationship is built upon sex alone, it will crumble. Why do you think that the divorce rate is so high? People marry because of sex and not for the right reason, same vision in life, same interests, love (real love) not that tingly feeling that you get when you are physically attracted to someone. I can get that from eating a bad taco!!! Sex is the icing on the cake. That is why God designed marriage first and then sex. Sex inside marriage is wonderful. When you take it outside it becomes deadly. What separated a husband and wife’s relationship from all others? Sex!!! I love others. I speak with others. I have the same vision in life as others. I work with others. I do not have sex with others. That is special relationship between husband and wife. If you throw sex around as something cheap then you do not have anything special to share with your spouse. Not a hard concept to understand but obviously you are having problems. Is there some guilt there? God can take that away too. By the way, trust had better be there before sex starts or you will be in big trouble. Many people have sex first and then try to develop trust. It cannot work that way. God calls us to be virgins (His rule and not mine) and it is a great thing that unfortunately today, is looked at in a cheap way. It needs to be on a pedestal because that is where God puts it. Taking it off is sin and He does not want that even if you do!
Wow, strong words from your part against the Bible and God. It is a good thing that God is patient with you but there is a limit to His patience. I am sorry that your friend was hit in the face by a hockey puck. Bad things still happen, even when you believe in God. He has promised to defend those who are His followers but that does not mean that they will avoid suffering, maybe even death. He will avenge them though at the right time.
Romans 2:4-5 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
God is rich in mercy but He is that way to give you time to repent. If you do not repent though then you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of judgment (you have no one else to blame but YOU).
God took me from being an angry person like you, full of hatred and pride and turned my life around. All of the anger is gone and the pride was broken. If He can do it to a person who was as bad as I was then He can certainly do it for you as well. I pray that you will let your wall down (you have put one up for some reason, probably deeply wounded in the past). God can take away your pain if you will let Him.
If you understood Christianity then you would realize that once you are a born again Christian then there is no going back. Maybe you were part of a religion. Being religious does not make you a Christian. The Bible tells us how to become a Christian. I hope that you will take a closer look at the Bible and not at what some other depraved minds have written about the Bible. I do not mind you calling me names. I knew what you were doing. Do you honestly think that you are the first person to ask me these questions and try to set me up? Get off your high horse, please, it is embarrassing. The problem is that you guys loose every time when your arguments are brought into the light of the Word of God (see the Luke argument that you tried to make earlier).
As I said earlier (you obviously did not read) trying to be abstinent without Jesus Christ will never work, it is impossible!!! That is why we need to teach sex ed from a Biblical perspective.
• Sam Says:
The Bible has not been shown to be wrong. If the Bible (the Word of God) is wrong then God would cease to exist. Since He still exists then His Word must be right. Study what is there and please do not be deceived by so called contradictions. If you study these so called contradictions in context then you will see the errors in the arguments of the ones who say that there are contradictions!!!
Please show me how I have evaded a comment and do not just make accusations without any proof (a 2 year old can do that).
My friend if you do not believe in the Word of God then you may believe in god but it is not the One who is mentioned in the Bible.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
As you can clearly see, there is no separation from God and His Word. Either you accept it all or none of it (no cherry picking here). I would advise you to take a long hard look at your life. Have you been born again? Has your life been completely changed? Has the slavery of sin been broken in your life? All of these things are characteristics of a person who is born again. Plus, do you have a hunger and thirst for the Word of God? The Bible mentions a phrase “do not be deceived” many times because there are so many false teachings out there (ie, you can separate the Word of God from God).
God has a lot to say about sexual sin. If fact that is a sin that separates believers from nonbelievers, read for yourself
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
The Gentiles (pagans) live in sexual sin, not Christians. Please do not be deceived!!!
If you would study up on the Holy Spirit then you would know that the Holy Spirit will guide the believers into all Truth. Jesus tells us what “Truth” is, the Word of God (sanctify them in the Truth, your Word is the Truth). Please do not go on being deceived!!!
Understand that the NT was being written during Acts!!! Your argument goes against what Jesus Christ said and taught. If you are a Christian then who are you following? You speak directly against what Christ taught.
God has never created a homosexual. People choose to be homosexual. Facts are facts. Calling a sin wrong is not judgmental. Please learn what you are talking about. God calls it sin. I agree with God. God judges sin, not me!!!!
I am out making disciples everyday. Are you? You see that is the command that Jesus Christ left for His followers.