Once in a while, I tune into KJSL, a St. Louis Christian talk radio station. I do this as part of a conscious effort to make myself listen to people with views that are dramatically different from my own. Perhaps I will understand those views better if I take the time to listen more.
While I was driving last week, the station featured a show called “News and Views,” hosted by a man named “Dr. Larry Bates.” The host repeatedly painted the future of the US as bleak, thanks to irresponsible financial policies by the federal government. Because I have some sympathy with that general conclusion, I continued to listen. It turned out that Bates was predicting the imminent financial collapse of the United States. Although I doubted that conclusion, I continued to listen.
Bates then indicated that he is also a big proponent of religious “End Times.” In short, he believes that Jesus will soon be returning to Earth in order to sort things out. I have no sympathy for this religious view. In fact, I find End Times beliefs to be irresponsible and destructive for the numerous reasons. For example, I do not hold the Bible to be inerrant. Based on my study of the Bible, although it offers some good stories and some reasonable moral instruction, it is also rife with bad advice, contradictions and senseless violence.
“Dr. Larry Bates” wears many hats. He claims to be an economist, publisher, editor, former member of the Tennessee House of Representatives, former bank CEO and a “nationally recognized expert on political systems and the Federal Reserve.” Bates is also the President of First American Monetary Consultants, Inc. (FAMC), an organization that allegedly does “economic and market forecasting, in addition to offering a wide variety of other End Times services. “News and Views” is a syndicated radio show, available dozens of radio stations across the U.S. Larry Bates is thus well known in some circles.
After listening to Bates for only a few minutes, I learned that the United States needs to immediately and mercilessly bomb Iran because of what “those people” have done to “support terrorism.” I also learned that we need to support Israel without question, based upon what the Bible says. I persevered to the end of the show, saddened by and frustrated with the flimsy manner in which Bates attempted to support his conclusions.
At the end of the show, it was announced that Bates was going to be featured at a half-day conference in St. Louis, I took the bait. I thought it would be interesting to better understand the basis for the views of End Times (both economic End Times and religious End Times) proponents. The conference was called “Perilous Times: Significant End Time Events.” I paid $20 and showed up at the Crystal Ballroom of the Renaissance St. Louis Grand and Suites Hotel in downtown St. Louis. Here’s my ticket:
At the registration desk, I received a folder full of information. One of the pamphlets advised me that legalized gay marriage is a major obstacle to democracy:
When the US Supreme Court ruled in Lawrence v. Texas last year that sodomy is a constitutional ‘right,’ the director of the lambda legal fund-a radical homosexual-agenda of pressure group-gleefully explained that this marks the beginning of the end to traditional marriage.
Another pamphlet advised that the United States is officially a Judeo-Christian nation. It quoted William Penn: “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” This pamphlet, printed by FAMC, “proves” that the United States is a Christian nation based upon the fact that the Constitutions of many of the states mention “God,” or “the Creator.” As though non-Christian religions don’t believe in a “God” or a “Creator.”
There were numerous products displayed and advertised at the conference. These products are the sorts of things you’ll need to have if you are going to be prepared for the economic and religious End Times. If you want to prevent cancer, you need to load up on Glutathione. The pamphlet says “your life depends on Glutathione.” To buy it, contact FAMC, according to the pamphlet.
What if you just want to make sure that you have access to “the most universal antibiotic” known to man, colloidal silver? It’s a “tasteless, odorless, non-toxic, purer, natural substance consisting of submicroscopic clusters of silver particles suspended by a tiny electric charge placed on each particle.” According to the pamphlet, you drink it. It kills all those pesky pathogens and protects all your good cells. According to the pamphlet, it is useful for treating allergies, boils, herpes, stomach flu, lime disease, gonorrhea, bladder irritations and chickenpox. The list goes on and on. Colloidal silver can be used vaginally, anally or dropped into the eyes.” You can even make your own colloidal silver out of silver wire, using the $189 generator you can buy from FAMC.
Another pamphlet advised me of my right to participate in jury nullification whenever anyone is being prosecuted for a gun crime. That is because “corrupted, anti-gun prosecutors and judges are common.” This information is distributed by the Fully Informed Jury Association.
After the economic collapse, you’ll need to make better use of all that expensive gasoline that all of us are going to need. Therefore, make sure you buy the “Power Plus Mpg” additive. Using this Power Plus, you can save 25 to $.50 per gallon. During his talk (which I’ll discuss in detail further down), Larry Bates bragged that his 5 mpg SUV improved its mileage 50% (to 7.5 mpg) after he started using this Power Plus. Those attending the conference were even invited to sign up as Power Plus distributors.
Additional Pamphlets were available advising how to support efforts to find those “30,000 POWs [who] were known to be behind alive after WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf and War on Terror.” There was also a table full of conservative-message bumper stickers.
The nice old fellow minding that table offered me a chance to take any one of those bumper stickers for free. I really struggled to find anything that didn’t offend my politics (maybe I am a liberal). After searching for a full minute, I picked up Smoke – Choke – Stroke – Croak.
I wasn’t really at the conference to dwell on the End Times products, however. I was there to listen to “Dr. Larry Bates,” just like the 200 other people who attended. Although the crowd included a handful of young adults, most of those attending were in their 60s or 70s. As is often the case with groups of conservative Christians, this was an extremely polite and orderly group. People held doors for each other and took time to exchange pleasantries.
Dr. Larry Bates introduced himself and then introduced a local preacher who opened the meeting with a prayer. Almost everyone bowed their heads respectfully. Then it was time to offer a few door prizes. The winners had a choice of two books: The Coming Financial Wipeout or America’s Christian Heritage.
Then it was time for four-hours of lecture. Bates bemoaned the lack of pastors in the audience. He complained that too many church leaders were “eating the sheep rather than feeding the sheep.” He asked for a show of hands of those who believe that we were in the last days, and perhaps a third of the audience raised their hand. When he asked whether we were in the very last days, 15% raised their hands.
Bates informed the audience that their job was to “raise up wisdom.” This has to be done by taking back the media, he explained, although “Fox news is one of our best news channels.”
He explained that the next election is the most important one ever. It will be about “class warfare.” The election whether we’ll have less government and bigger government. It’s between monopolistic versus competitive capitalism. Although the Republicans are imperfect, according to a distressed Bates, the only real choice in this upcoming election is Republican. More on this further down.
The United States is under attack by economic and political elitists who want to keep the middle class trapped as pawns and serfs in this elitist version of a caste system. These are desperate times, because “There are only two countries in the entire world where the middle class runs the government or has the opportunity to run the government: the United States and Israel.”
The elitists are “One World Socialists” according to Bates. They want to level everyone out to make everyone equally poor, except for themselves. A repeated target of Bates was the Federal Reserve, which “only looks federal and has no reserves.” Bates could barely contain his scorn for the Federal Reserve, which, he repeatedly emphasized, was totally owned by private bankers.
Bates is highly suspicious of George W. Bush’s “New World order.” It is a conspiracy against the people of the United States, and it amounts to “one world socialism,” an attempt to make everyone poor except for an elite ruling class. He exhorted that the creation of the Federal Reserve was a conspiracy to rob the American middle class. The Federal Reserve is a “criminal syndicate.” According to Bates, the head of the Federal Reserve is more powerful than the president of the United States. In all earnestness, he told the crowd that the 1938 panic-provoking radio adaptation of “War of the Worlds” was not entertainment. It was a test by the government elite to see if the federal government could maintain control over the New World Order.
What are the elitists trying to do? They are trying to create a North American Union. They want to merge the United States, Mexico and Canada and to destroy the sovereignty of the United States. That’s why we have a lax immigration policy, he warned. What’s the solution? “Build a fence and keep them out.” If the rate of immigration exceeds your rate of assimilation, “you lose your country.” Throughout his talk, Bates insinuated that the impending economic collapse will coincide with the religious Second Coming.
The Democrats are the party of big government, militant homosexual “rights and domination.” The Democrats are Socialists, from the party of Karl Marx, where the government owns and controls everything, including all means of distribution and production. “Liberals hate property rights.” Bates drew numerous parallels to the Soviet Union, where people had to wait in long lines for everything. That’s what the Democrats would bring us, he urged.
He warned that you can’t overlook the Republicans just because are imperfect. He understands that “Jesus Christ is not on the ballot.” If you hurt the Republicans, “you hurt yourself.” “Dingy Harry Reid “is corrupt and Nancy Pelosi is “a disaster.” Whenever you have a strong economy, you’ve got limited government. “It’s that simple.” Are there any litmus test for politicians? Absolutely. Don’t vote for anybody who believes in any right to abortion. “Nothing tells you more about politicians that sanctity of life. If they don’t get this right, they get nothing right.”
What else did he think about some the candidates? There was no holding back. Hillary Clinton shouldn’t be president because God has a natural order for things. Bates paused to caution the audience, “I’m not a chauvinist.” Then he forged on: “God is the head of man and man is the head of women. A two-headed family is a freak.” He offered this evidence of his position: Indonesia is struggling because it is a matriarchy. To allow women to run the country is to violate God’s order. God says there should not be a woman president. It is as aberrant as “letting children run a household.”
According to Bates, “Barack Hussein Obama” (he repeated this full name several times) is a radical muslim who was educated in a radical muslim school. His Church is full of people who, according to Bates, hate white people. [For those who are concerned about Obama based on Bates’ outrageous claims, check out this and this].
Are there some good Republican candidates? You bet, according to Bates. For instance, Tom Tancredo got it right when he recently got tough with Muslims. Bates described it like this: “if you use a nuclear device in the United States, then we will use a nuke to take out Mecca and Medina . . . [applause] . . . Brutal force is the only thing these birds understand.” Upon hearing and seeing this, I was stunned. Though I tried, I couldn’t recall the particular verse of the Bible where Jesus said, “If someone shits on you, shit on them.”
But Bates wasn’t done with the Muslims. According to Bates, the goal of Islam is “world domination under sharia law.” There are three types of followers of Islam, according to Bates. Type 1 is a revolutionary who sets off bombs. These people are terrorists. The second type is an evolutionary follower, distributing propaganda and prolifically “breeding.” The third type is a westernized Muslim who probably hasn’t even read the Koran. Nonetheless, those westernized Muslims will fall right in line, especially when those other Muslims threaten to cut off their heads or attack members of their families. The Koran “tells you “to kill and who to kill,” according to Bates. It tells you to kill Christians and Jews.
According to Bates, Sam Brownback of Kansas is misguided (too liberal) on immigration, perhaps because of his Catholic conversion. He doesn’t understand that we’ve simply got to keep those immigrants out.
What are some of the big issues of the upcoming election? National health insurance is a big issue. If we have national health insurance, it will “ruin the country. The country ends when we enact national health insurance.” What’s the evidence for this dramatic prediction? Tennessee has free government medical care, yet (according to Bates) nobody signs up for it. Therefore, there’s no need for national health insurance. Under national health insurance, Bill Clinton would have had to wait six weeks to get an appointment and six months to get his necessary surgery. National health insurance involves the “efficiency of the post office and the compassion of the IRS.” Furthermore, it will “drive the cost of health care way up.” National healthcare will bankrupt the country: “The government that can give you everything you want must, by definition, take everything you’ve got.”
Bates warns that people need to quit concerning themselves with the healthcare establishment. In fact, he’s suspicious of the healthcare system. People need to focus on preventing disease rather than treating it. They need a laugh more. “Laughter is better medicine.” People would “rather be victims-our diseases are other people’s faults.” People need to take responsibility for their own good health, said Bates, who looks to be a few pounds overweight. It all starts “with what you put in your body.” Bates then spent a serious chunk of time touting the healthcare products displayed on the tables in the lobby.
Bates explained that churches will need to get more into the healthcare business, because they have more to offer than the healthcare establishment. Churches have the courage to “tell the bums that they are bums” (I wondered what the bum lobby would think of this statement.
We have too much Blue Cross and Blue Shield. We depend too much on man and not enough on God. We’ve replaced God on the throne with government on the throne. We look to Jehovah government instead of God.
Bates announced that if anyone gets sick, it’s that person’s own fault. There are plenty of things you can do so that you don’t get sick, according to Bates. You can take regular doses of that colloidal silver I first learned about from the handouts. He announced that colloidal silver kills all bacteria. Someone in the back of the room then announced “Amen!” Gee, Larry, I wondered. Are you sure you want to kill all the bacteria in your body, including the beneficial bacteria that reside in your gut? He marched on, undeterred. Bates claims that he puts silver in his milk to keep it from spoiling. It will never spoil as long as you put silver in your carton of milk. He urged the audience to buy the colloidal silver generating kit, so they can make their own colloidal silver. He warned the audience that the FDA does not want people to know about the amazing healing powers of silver. The FDA doesn’t want the competition—it would put some big pharmaceutical companies out of business. In fact, the FDA is about to try to outlaw the use of silver as a medicine. Modern pharmaceuticals are “witchcraft.”
What else can you do to stay healthy? If you’ve got cancer, make sure you consider getting vitamin C injections. These have been phenomenally successful, according to Bates. This new knowledge about the healing powers of vitamin C reminded him that the Bible predicted “God’s plan of healing.” This kind of “new important knowledge” is another sign of “the last days.” We need to be the “salt” (disinfectant of the evil people) and the “light” (spreading wisdom). Bates warned that many believers are going to have to do God’s work on their own because churches “have been corrupted by world government.”
What would you do if you’re laid-off in the impending economic collapse? You need to get a trade. You need to do something with your hands, such as plumbing or electrical work. “The time will come when you have to barter your skills for someone else’s skills.” The End Times are apparently not going to be pretty.
The last section of the presentation was an indictment of US monetary policy. Bates pointed out that the United States now has $25 trillion in domestic debt which must be serviced, whereas the M2 money supply is only $7 trillion. This sets the stage for the economic End Times. The government can either go into default work or print fake money to dilute real wealth. He warns that the U.S. is busy printing lots of fake money. That’s what the recent $300 billion injection of “new money” was. It was used to allegedly stabilize the stock market. He warns that it would take a 7.1% added payroll tax to service our current debt, an amount that would break the backs of most families. Bates sees a massive restructuring of the social security system forthcoming, including raised taxes and reduced benefits, as well as means tests.
What can we do about the impending economic collapse? One thing is that we can make sure that no one takes away our guns, said Bates.
There will be no total economic collapse until there is total gun control. The tyrants don’t want to deal with an armed populace. The enemies of liberty hate your guns. The Second Amendment protects the First Amendment.
Here’s what else you can do, according to Bates. Elect people who will build fences to keep out the immigrants. Hone your communications skills, because the upcoming wars will be wars of world views. According to the Bible, “when you see the enemy, you’ll need to warn the city.”
As far as protecting your assets, Bates gives this advice: Stay away from “Loanership” assets, such as Money Market funds, T-bills and CD’s. They are “pieces of paper: IOU’s. Beware of real estate, in this age when the government is taxing it heavily and abusing eminent domain. Instead, load up on precious metals, such as gold and silver coins. This is especially important, given that the U.S. has long been off the gold standard, which has invited the dollar’s slide versus most currencies. He claims that you should not get gold or silver bullion because federal law gives the government the right to confiscate these in times of economic emergency.
Who’s going to buy your precious metal coins in the time of economic collapse? Bates is convincing to me when he answers that question with another question: “Who is going to buy your paper dollars?” He characterizes gold and silver as “money.” Everything else is only “credit.”
So Bates’ program includes both saving and eating silver! Where are you going to get all of those precious metals? From a reputable company like FAMC, of course. Bates tells you to buy precious coins and his company is happy to sell them to you. He told the crowd that precious metal coins are “real money” and that they will be exchangeable until the absolute end of time. Didn’t the Bible say that people will throw their gold and silver into the street? Absolutely, says Bates. But that will be toward the end, when we’ll see a “large scale transfer of wealth from the wicked to the righteous.” It’s all in the Bible, according to Bates. Up until those End Times, then, rely on precious metals, says Bates, citing Ezekiel 7:19 (“Precious metals very valuable until the time that God’s wrath is poured out”) and Haggai 2:6-9 (End time transfer of wealth using precious metals”).
Bates is not embarrassed about having money. “God doesn’t mind if you have nice things.” You should use and enjoy your money, he stresses. Have as much of it as you need, even if you use it to buy expensive houses, cars and vacations. No problem. It’s only the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. His literature cites Proverbs 28:20 (“Eager to get rich; will not go unpunished”), Ecclesiastes 2:26 (“One who pleases Him receives wealth”) and Genesis 2:11-12 (“God put gold in the earth for a reason”).
—
It’s hard to know how to sum up this Perilous Times Conference. The lessons taught by Bates are laced with radical conservative values, that is true. His characterizations of both Republicans and Democrats are cartoonish. His xenophobia and racism (especially toward women and people from the Middle East) are intense. His plan to capitalize upon the fears he drums up, both economic and religious, is predictable and obvious.
Bates has a ready and willing audience, because his targets are big and fat. Anyone with energy and creativity can vigorously hack away at pharmaceutical companies, drug companies, bankers, politicians and bureaucrats. If you can convince your audience that it might lose much of what it has worked for, you could readily stir up their deep fears about out-groups such as gays, women, atheists and immigrants.
Bates is playing a game that is played by many people who have some legitimate credentials. During the final portion of this conference Bates sometimes sounded like someone who was giving some reasonable economic advice based on sophisticated training. He sometimes spoke as person who relied on his training and experience in economics and banking. I am not an economist or a banker, and I have not read nearly enough to know the extent to which Bates is giving decent economic advice, though what I have read about United States fiscal policy also concerns me greatly. I’ve seen similar admonitions regarding the United States fiscal policy on “liberal” shows such as Bill Moyers. I think it is this part of the show that gives Bates the foot in the door with his audience.
Nonetheless, it is a standard trick to parlay one’s legitimate credentials far beyond the realm of one’s expertise. When Bates talks with ultra-assurance of the alleged Second Coming of Christ or when he touts the medical quackery he is so happy to peddle, he looks both naïve and devious. Shame on his audience members, though, if they really step up to buy that little bottle of fuel additive that will allegedly make their humongous SUVs get 50% better gas mileage. Shame on the people who think that the FDA is trying to outlaw silver potions because drinkable silver is so incredibly good that it would put pharmaceutical companies out of business. Shame on people who trust people who sell snake oil.
I couldn’t help but conclude that there is much in common among the sorts of people that listen to Bates and the sorts of people with whom I more commonly associate. We are all worried about our corrupt government, our poisoned food and water, our shortsighted fiscal policies, our many failing schools, our own deaths, about numerous people illegally pouring over our borders, about the many people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol and about a media with an agenda secretly dictated by those who hold disproportionate power. Many Believers and non-Believers are downright suspicious of organized religions. We differ profoundly, however, in the ways in which we would address these threats. What Bates offers is a bomb-shelter mentality. He relentlessly warns his audience of the need to hunker down and protect one’s own and let everyone else be damned.
As I left Perilous Times Conference, I wondered whether it would be an impossible task to convince the people in that audience to put down their Bibles and roll up their sleeves when they discuss politics. I wondered whether these people would ever be willing to open their minds to diverse ideas from people who might look and act differently than they do. I wondered whether Bates’ fans would ever be willing to look at their own cherished ideas as skeptically as they look at the ideas of others. I wondered whether they would ever be capable of pretending, even for a moment, that they were not under attack by all of those people of the world who they don’t know well. I wondered whether they could ever be convinced to consider that strangers are, for the most part, people with hopes, dreams and fears much like their own.
After mega-doses of Larry Bates, is it even possible for people to consider that there is a vast commonality all people share and that this could really be a starting point for a functional world view, one that is not based on paranoia?
Samantha
The stories to which you lately refer (the martyrdom of the disciples) are not factuallyrecorded by some independent chronicler, but were written by those who have something to gain – the early Christians. They most definitely had a need for martyrs as a recruitment tool. Unless you can point to some real, independent sources for your claims, I will remain skeptical! (Sources other than the bible which has been demonstrably proven to be a contradictory collage of wishful thinking and self-congratulation).
You say "they all agreed" — but the question remains – who are "they" (the writers of the Gospels)? Unproven.
Which ancient 'secular' writings can you claim that describe Christian persecution (other than Tacitus, which we have discussed above) or indeed Jesus? I know of none (and believe me, I've looked). The only 'writings' that talk about Jesus are (at best) second and third hand 'eywitness accounts'. By your rules for acceptance, we should be looking for minotaurs, sirens, centaurs, and cyclops (since the voyages of Jason are recorded from the same 'eyewitness' perspective)
Your penultimate statement regarding the options (I paraphrase: if jesus didn't rise, no bad, if he did, then it's reasonable to believe, so why not believe?) is merely a poor rendition of Pascal's Wager – which is simply a poor logical fallacy that requires the a priori acceptance of its postulates without proof.
Lastly, I don't understand your final comment (It takes more faith to believe what you are proposing.)
How does it take more faith to accept that errors were made, or that people either lied or embellished their statement. That is demonstrably how people deal with each other in reality-based-land. It is how gossip is shared. It is intrinsic to our very human natures as story tellers. Occam's razor definitely cuts in favor of my interpretation, not yours, with regards to the historical record. Your's is the interpretation that requires special pleading, hand-waving, and interpretation to be 'just-so'. Mine is simply – "show me" – and no-one has shown me anything resembling reasonable proof – not one iota.
Mark Tiedemann says to Samantha:
August 12, 2010 at 6:06 pm
Name me one prophecy from the Bible that has come true. Just one.
Asserting something is true usually comes with some proof, and I’ve yet to see any other than vague re-engineerings of supposed events that may or may not (depending which translation of what verse) correspond sorta kinda with a biblical prophecy.
Mark Tiedemann says to Rob
August 14, 2010 at 2:26 pm
I would hope conservatives require references as well. So you were in error claiming Isaiah prophesied all this. It’s in various places.
Erich Vieth says to Samatha:
August 12, 2010 at 11:14 pm
Samantha would rather threaten people with hell then engage in a meaningful discussion. And she smugly continues to work hard to convince herself that out of all of the world’s supernatural belief systems, only her beliefs are correct. Too bad for all of those Hindus and Buddhists. In other words, two-thirds of the world’s people are dead wrong and hell-bound.
Dan Klarmann says:August 13, 2010 at 7:07 pm
I can’t find any reference to crucifixion in Isaiah. Where is that? I only find that the coming prophet would be beat up, imprisoned, and stoned (crushed to death).
Tony Coyle says to Samantha:
August 18, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Unfortunately, Samantha, in the reality-based world claims need evidence.
Brynn Jacobs says to Samantha:
August 19, 2010 at 2:35 pm
In terms of prophecy, how do you decide when a prophecy is “close enough” to count as a hit?
Hello to all who commented and all who will read this response to Mark Tiedemann, Erich Vieth, Dan Klarmann,Tony Coyle, and Brynn Jacobs.
I am amazed on how many twists and turns a blog can take in a matter of a few minutes to a few days. It is evident that there are many educated people writing what is on their heart, in their mind, what they read, what they heard or seen . I have to be up front, in that, I am not one of those educated people who are book smart and know all the facts. I am just a regular guy that has had something amazing happened to me driving down a highway. I will tell this event if you would be kind enough to hang around. But first, I want to say again Hello brothers and sisters it is great to be here with you today! I wanted to touch base on a couple responses to previous letters. Samantha took a hit for what she truly believes and I am coming behind her in support for her standing true to what she believes because I am her husband.
First, I do have to quote this from the Bible. John 3:1-8 (New International Version) John 3 Jesus Teaches Nicodemus 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
I chose verse because not only do you need to be born again to see the Kingdom of God; you need to be born of the Spirit to understand the word of God. We are born with a veil over our eyes to the things of God because of sin. Paul was told by Jesus about the blindness of people in the next few verses.
Acts 26:15-18 (New International Version) 15"Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' " 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
Many of you are in disagreement to the believers which I will call the "I witnesses of God". Atheists and mockers of the Bible are at the disadvantage because they never repented of the sin of disbelief and never looked for the God of the Bible, but only read the Bible to try to disprove it. We as believers and "I witnesses of Jesus" have the advantage over you because Jesus has opened our eyes, minds, and hearts to the truth which has been written in the Bible for everyone's benefit. As a matter of fact, I’ll prove my point.
In an earlier blog response from Rob, he indicated that a reference to the cross was found in Isaiah 53. The response came back and it was disputed by Dan, who, by what comes out of his heart, to me, is a non believer, said that the crucifixion is no where to be found in the book of Isaiah. These couple verses are the little hidden golden nuggets the Holy Spirit filled believers would find because their eyes were opened to truth by Jesus.
Isaiah 53:12 (New International Version)
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
This prophecy underlined foreshadows Jesus being with the two convicted criminals or "numbered" with the 2 sinners on each side of Him on the crosses that day when he was crucified on Calvary.
That day at Calvary the prophesy that Isaiah wrote about came true in that he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.
Another golden nugget of truth is found that prophesizes the burial of Jesus.
Isaiah 53:9
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Jesus died with the other sinners on the cross and was buried in a rich man's tomb. Found in Matthew 27:57-60 another prophecy filled by one Man.
Those were just a few examples of people like us today back then writing down what was on their heart, in their mind, what they read, what they heard and seen .
This is my "I witness" account to the prophecy fulfilled in the scripture. Isaiah 53:12 He bare the sin of many. This is me. I am one of many Isaiah wrote about that whose sin would rest on one Man.
My testimony Samantha's husband:
I was hopelessly addicted to marijuana since 6th grade. Then in my later teens cocaine and other drugs, porn, alcohol, etc… I continued that lifestyle until 28 years old. I always worked; in fact, I was loyal to one company for 13 years while I was addicted to the things I mentioned. After a broken relationship with a girl I was in love with, my heart was devastated. The next day after the break up, I took a bible into my partner in work who was my very best friend. He was not a religious man by any means, but I new I could trust him to give me advice. He grew up as a Catholic and was very smart. Any crossword puzzle he would do in minutes. I new he would comfort me with some memorized scripture. He gave me some versus and I read them. Even after that initial self examination, I continued on that slippery slope of drugs even though I was searching the Bible for answers on how to really live a life pleasing to God.
I started recognizing that it was my hidden addictions that was affecting my whole life. One night it finally hit me that I was going to die if I continued of the Life style I was living. So I started reading the Bible more and repenting of all my known sins. God would bring passed sin to my memory that I had not confessed and I had to deal with them. I was like a banana and God was peeling away all the layers to get to my deep bruises that came upon me through bad choices I made.
At the same time, I started taking classes a the local community college and trade school. My drafting teacher suggested I take a machine trade up and maybe it would land me a job in a company that would send me for further schooling. So I did and received a certificate in basic machinery then dropped out of community college. I decided to leave my job after 13 years and move on.
I arrived at my new job for the first day and the first man I saw to the right of the entrance working at a giant lathe was an African American who wore wire frame glasses and had a huge smile on his face and had a baseball cap on his head that said Jesus in big yellow print. He pointed to the name Jesus upon the rim of his hat and gave me a smile. The first minute in the company and I had made a friend. This man was at least 6' 3" very tall and big. I walked to my work station and like right away the other employees who happened to be my co workers told me whoever talks to that Christian either quits or gets fired. They also said not to listen to him because he is crazy. I thought to myself, you are telling me who I can talk to and who I can't. Anyway these oriental weight lifters who were brothers would daily mock this Christian, walking past him saying praise the Lord, praise the Lord. In fact, I noticed that know one else was smiling and had joy except the Christian named Nate. I was drawn to this man and spoke with him about God whenever I had the chance. He was different than my best friend the Catholic who first gave me scriptures to read. Nate was full of joy all the time. And lived the Christian life where my friend new verses from the Bible but liked to curse and mock and drink alcohol. In fact, when the mockers would be mocking Nate he would smile and he would just say to them in a loving way that they need Jesus. He was so cool of a guy that he wore long sleeve shirts on the hottest of days and would not sweat. Also, he was so big that the weightlifters would have been crushed by him. His hands were huge but he showed no anger toward them even though the taunts and the jeers kept coming.
Anyway, I was very depressed at that time. I was in a new company where I was not liked because I made friends with Nate. I would take my Bible in and at lunch would say to him show me this Jesus, I need him. This is what I did in my life, I ruined lives with my drugs, and I made bad choices where the consequences changed my family’s lives. I am hopeless and the guilt I can not bare any longer. Nate would listen then give me a verse from the Bible. Like Matt 11:28-30.
One night one of my neighbors who was a close friend were talking and I was mentioning God and Nate and the things he had been telling me about Hell when all of the sudden my friend said I am being brain washed. Instantly I new the devil was talking through him. I knew those were lies. That moment on I felt I was in a tug of war battle where God was on one side and Satan on the other. My mind was filled with all sorts of confusion and thoughts.
The next day, shortly after meeting with Nate, in the evening after work I was driving on the highway weeping. 28 years old and I was crying about the mess I was in with what looked to me a very bleak future. It was a beautiful evening with a magnificent sunset and an orange and blue sky .I looked up at the sky and I did not feel lovely or beautiful. All that I can think of was my rotten past. I then looked up in the sky and said Jesus; can you make me feel as beautiful as that sky? Instantly after those words, Jesus filled me with his amazing love and joy and forgiveness. My tears of pain became tears of joy. I could not think about all the lives I ruined by selling drugs nor the pain of past broken relationships. In a split second I was born again and alive in Christ. I could no longer feel any guilt. I was under the glory of God. Everything was colorful more than before. It seemed that the veil over my eyes put there at birth was lifted. I started thanking Jesus saying over and over you are who you said you are. Thank you, Thank you.
Then I thought to myself now what? I know what I will do. I need to share the good news with someone. I Know, I will drive to my best friend’s house who shared the bible with me first. Surely he would know what I was talking about. So I drove to his house. I was still under the glory of God which was lasting for a long time. After I arrived at my friend’s house I realized he was drunk and my other friend was high on dope. I was going to tell them what happened to me just about 15 minutes before when all the sudden Jesus spoke to me and said "don't say anything , silence he new the versus but he did not know me". I kept my mouth closed. So soon I left.
The next day I had to go to my new job. I had knots in my stomach because I did not like it there. It was very early in the morning and I was driving up a foggy mountain and I cried out to Jesus, I don't want to go to that job they hate me. Jesus filled me with his same presence he filled me with the day before on the highway and said, "Go. Tell them who I am". So I went to work and the first person who I saw was Nate. I said to Nate "Thank you"! "Thank you"! I got saved last night Jesus came to live in me. I am born again. We hugged and we rejoiced spirit to spirit. He said, " I told you he is real. That is what I am talking about." I then walked over to the oriental brothers and told them that Nate was right. Jesus is real and alive. Jesus saved me last night and my sins are forgiven and I am born again.
I thought they would listen but their anger grew more at me. They started slamming steel behind my back. It got so bad that I quit a couple of days later. I only worked at that company for 1 1/2 months. I am a changed man because I gave my life up to regain it. When I did not see God working he was there all the time. I left that company with the ultimate prize. Salvation. And a relationship with my Creator. The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.
To sum up, I was like Paul on that road he was on. So transformed by Jesus that I can not keep him silent. I try to share Jesus with people like yourselves that keep saying there is no proof and where are the facts. You read the facts in my testimony with no lies and no story telling to move what some say is a book of fabricated events over time to support other prefabricated events. I was instantly set free. Like I said I am uneducated and I know I don’t have all the answers. I know what I know. I know who I was before Jesus saved me and I know who I am now. Two totally different people. I know I kept you readers a long time but I just want you to know that on that highway I did not cry out to Muhammad, Buddha, Mother Mary, Catholic saints nor any Hindu gods. Nor did I meditate and the power of thought changed me. I cried out the name Jesus. The same Jesus that the Old Testament concealed and the New Testament revealed. God’s gift to mankind was his son Jesus. The Bible is where I learned about Him. Isaiah 53:12 prophecy came true in that Jesus made intercession for me a transgressor.
Thank you for reading and I pray you will find the greatest treasure in life. Jesus Christ
Samantha – and Samantha's husband
No one doubts your sincerity, nor do we doubt that you truly believe what you say, and believe your version of the bible is factual.
Thank you too for your 'witnessing' – I know how important it is for many people to unburden themselves to others in such a way. (Anthropologists and psychologists might call it extended group therapy, but regardless of the label, if it works for you…)
However, your statements continually demonstrate confirmation bias (as noted and defined earlier by Brynn), a 'rose tinted' reading of the bible (we, as unbelievers and not being 'with the Spirit' are closed to the true meaning, apparently), and (dare I say) a smugness in your certainty.
I am not certain. Of anything. I am convinced in varying degree by evidence. Multiple, corroborating, un-related lines of evidence (such as those for Evolution) convince me that I should accept whatever conclusion is warranted by that evidence. I don't believe or have faith in the conclusion – I have evidence that the conclusion is reasonable and supported. However, evidence is ultimately mutable. Our ability to measure more accurately, to examine more deeply, has led to major changes in understanding (such as the shifts from Newtonian to Einsteinian mechanics, and then to Quantum mechanics). Newtonian physics was not completely invalidated by the new evidence – but it was shown to be, at best, a fairly granular model of reality. Looking more closely (and more widely), we saw more nuance than Newton could. Newton is still a reasonable 'gross, first principle macro' approach to mechanics, but we now know that there are refinements that we need to apply if we exceed the boundaries of Newton at the smallest and the largest scales.
I, and many others, approach all life and understanding in the same way. Evidence is accumulated, and analyzed, and hypotheses and inferences are drawn. Sometimes the evidence is extremely strong and we ascribe the label of fact to our conclusions – but there are no facts, only our conclusions from evidence, and as more evidence is acquired, our conclusions may (and often must) change.
This is the fundamental difference between us.
You tell me that your book is immutable fact, and that other evidence must be shaped to fit the conclusions drawn for the book.
I tell you that facts are intrinsically mutable, and depend on the totality of the evidence. Change the evidence, and the facts will necessarily change.
Perhaps this makes it impossible to truly have a meaningful dialog. Perhaps not. One of us must change to allow such a dialog to occur.
Can someone cleary give me your persuasion of how we got the Bible? Who started the Lies about Jesus? What happended that evidently sweeped the 1st century to the point of people being put to death for being a Chrisitian? Give me a solid account of what you think happened to get the world to believe something totally false? explanation, please?
Samantha: Check out Bart Ehrman's writings on the Bible (described here http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/10/22/who-c… ) Kick up your feet and watch this lecture by Ehrman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3N4ymHO-eA Ehrman is a highly admired Bible scholar who was originally a fundamentalist, but then he started demanding better answers to straightforward questions.
See also the work of Elaine Pagels, including Beyond Belief. http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Belief-Secret-Gospel… These two highly accessible authors will get you started. It will be a very different experience than what you hear in churches.
Sincerity is not at issue.
That an idea has benefited you personally is not at issue.
I have an acquaintance who forewent suicide because of a song by the Grateful Dead. I defy anyone to deny the validity of her experience.
She does not, however, go around telling the world it must listen exclusively to the Grateful Dead in order to be "saved."
What is at issue is the transfer of authority to someone or something based on ideas which, while impacting people powerfully in their own lives, do not hold up to scrutiny in any kind of objective sense. It is imbuing someone—like Larry Bates—with a prestige he has not earned simply because he speaks "in the name of" something other people find personally compelling and then going around and telling the rest of us how blind and benighted we are because we choose not to grant that authority on that basis.
I was (as have, probably most people in the U.S.) approached by some Jehovah's Witnesses once who preached to me the message of turning over my heart and mind to their god because the End was nigh.
"That's a rather pernicious idea, don't you think?" I asked.
"How so?" they asked.
"Because if people really bought that, we'd have no reason at all to try to make this world any better. We would abandon responsibility, we'd sit on our rumps and wait to be saved. We would have no reason to do our best to improve the world. It would undermine any effort to address injustice or want or poverty or ignorance. Hand your heart and mind over to the Big Guy so when the rapture comes you can go to heaven. Why even bother mowing your lawn?"
Naturally, they didn't accept that, but it's a logical consequence of this sort of faith. Of course, all the reasons to try to make the world better, to redress grievances, administer justice, and dispel ignorance are rooted in the commonality of our humanity, not in the resonance of our particular faith.
Just one example—because of religious conviction, the AIDS crisis in Africa (and elsewhere, but most powerfully there) is reduced to a matter of club membership, and solutions that are based in the human are seen as somehow worse than the disease itself, because those solutions run counter to a religious conviction. People die because they're told they can't use condoms because doing so is a sin.
Any way you twist this, that is an abuse of authority. And the only basis for that authority is the assertion that sixty odd ancient pieces of folklore—some with circumstantial historical connections—trump reason and empathy based on our common humanity.
Now, one might say that those in authority are misinterpreting those bits of folklore, but that ultimately doesn't matter. They believe. And they want me to believe the same nonsense and turn my back on reason and effective understanding because of the threat of an imaginary eternity of punishment. I can see the victims of their ignorance writhing in pain here and now, hell has nothing to threaten me with. Hell is the righteous condemning people to misery because they won't look beyond the fantasy that constitutes their entire world, and those who don't share in it are, to them, outside the bounds of concern.
In the last three hundred years we have built systems that have increased life expectancy, pushed back horrible diseases, improved the diet, and widened the opportunities for each individual to actually understand the world and what it is. We have expanded our understanding of justice and striven to bring it to more and more people, propertied or not, educated or not. We have lifted the lot of many out of the short, nasty and brutish to which the vast majority of humanity was condemned for millennia and given ourselves the opportunity to touch the universe and wonder at its intricacy and complexity. A child who once might have been guaranteed a life of manual labor, inhuman struggle, and a short life lived in ignorance now can aspire to grasp the very nature of who he is and what he is and his (or her) place in that nature. At least here, the water won't kill you because we know how to flense it of disease and poisons. You can go into a building filled with books and LEARN ANYTHING YOU WANT, without interference from someone in authority telling you that it's not your place to know these things. You can love who you want, the way you want. You have some say in who your leaders are and how they will order the community in which you live. Your voice is not automatically stifled just because you have no position or wealth. And if your life is not what you want it to be, you have the freedom to change it if you can.
All this has been done through reason and a clear-eyed interaction with the world as it is, not through religion or mysticism. Much of this has been accomplished in spite of religion.
And the irony is that we have come to this point, where people who in the past would die in complete obscurity, never having had a chance to know or understand or say anything about the age in which they lived can use the freedom and the tools that reason has provided them to urge the rest of us to turn our back on the one idea that has demonstrably done all these wonderful things, in the name of an authority that cannot be objectively substantiated outside of any reference to its own tautological webs.
Larry Bates is another in a long line of purveyors of fear who have pocketed fortunes by playing on the willful gullibility of people who are afraid to leave the temple. What is sad is there are so many who are willing to do most of his work for him.
Samantha writes:—"Who started the Lies about Jesus? What happended that evidently sweeped the 1st century to the point of people being put to death for being a Chrisitian? Give me a solid account of what you think happened to get the world to believe something totally false?"
Oh my. A simple question with a complex answer.
In a word, politics.
For a full understanding, you should read several books on Roman history at the time of the Julians, which is the period to which you refer.
As simply as possible, though, consider this: no system of authority existed without some connection to the supernatural. The gods were a necessary component of every regime you care to name. Akkadian, Hittite, Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian—power went hand in hand with a religious establishment. Everywhere.
The fact that today no one believes in the reality of those gods ought to suggest something to you.
Nevertheless, emperors, kings, pharoahs, caesars…all of them ruled with the apparent blessing of the gods. That’s just how it worked. They had no concept of a secular administration the way we do today. In fact, the United States is pretty much the first wholly secular state from the git-go. Up till then, and even well into the 19th Century, rulers and religion operated hand-in-glove.
Now look at what this fellow Yeshua said. Never mind who or what people later said he was, just look at the words.
We’re all the same. No one is any better than anybody else. The only thing you owe the king is taxes. And peace is more important than conquest. No one has the right to judge others. Money is less important than integrity.
I’m simplifying, of course, but that’s the sum of it. Very radical stuff. By anyone’s standards. Subversive. (In fact, Yeshua’s death was the punishment reserved pretty much for political criminals, which throws suspicion on the whole crucifixion of the two petty criminals. A thief was usually not executed under Roman law but enslaved. Murderers were subject to local courts and punishments and the Romans didn’t bother—Hebrew law indicated stoning.)
What Yeshua preached was radical social equality. It was known by mid First Century C.E. as the Slave’s Religion and for good reason. It appealed to them very strongly.
Plus they held that no other gods could be worshiped. This was at a time when the emperor’s were being declared gods upon their death. (Caligula was the first Roman emperor to claim godhood while alive.) This was also not new. The Egyptian pharoahs made that claim as well.
So this was a matter of serious state security.
The Jews also did not hold with worshiping other gods, but there was a crucial difference—the Jews were largely tolerated because they were clannish, not evangelizers. The Christians were actively spreading what amounted to treason.
The reaction was predictable. Suppression. But like all such acts, suppression tends to make an underground movement stronger. Which is how Christianity morphed into a political movement that became ascendant by the Fourth Century.
Like all ruling movements, though, it would have been unthinkable for it to claim ascendancy without the affiliation of a religious component, so the claims that Yeshua was the son of god were attached and by the time Christianity became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire, it had to enforce its claim by banning all other religions, which it did. The mystical side of the story was grafted on over time. None of the Gospels were written by eye witnesses—and they contradict in certain key areas—so what happened was a teacher, a philosopher, a radical thinker who established a core following with a very powerful message—equality—was used by later organizers as the central figure in a religious movement.
Nothing about this would have been in the least unusual. These people—Hebrew, Roman, Egyptian, all of them—saw the world through supernatural lenses. That was how they thought everything worked. So it would have been natural to attribute divinity to a powerful teacher. Just like the Buddha.
But the movement and its growth was political.
And the early Christians, many of them, were just as nasty and vindictive as the pagans they sought to replace. You should look up the fate of Hypatia as an example.
After Constantine, Christianity became overtly political by subsuming already extant holy days into its mythos. Christmas, for example, is a traditional Roman holy day for Sol Invictus. None of this was seen as particularly heretical by the dominant Christian sect, only by a few fringe Christian cults which were eventually absorbed, suppressed, or banished. Roman involvement had to be written in, hence the nonsense with Herod, and even the alleged martyrdom of the early apostles at Roman hands served propaganda purposes more than anything else.
But in the main, as this had now become the state religion of Rome, it was perfectly natural for the empire to adopt the mythology and insist on its legitimacy as a necessary part of its authority. Over time, what would have normally been regarded simply as treason became heresy, and the insistence on the inerrancy of the supporting documents (scripture) became a political litmus test.
It was also why popular versions of the bible were suppressed and forbidden for centuries. The original message of Yeshua—equality—had been coopted to support the ruling elite. Irony of ironies that it was done so in his name as a deity he probably never actually claimed to be.
So how do you make a lie play out like the truth? History is full of examples. And we’re seeing an attempt to do so now with this nonsense about the United States being originally established as a Christian nation. It was not. The Founders decisively separated the government from religion for precisely the reasons I stated above—to sever the connection between ruling elites and supernatural “approval.”
But I guess there are still people who need their leaders to have god on their side.
Mark: The command of Jesus to love one's enemy is perhaps the most radical command of all. It runs counter to a deep human impulse to be loyal to one's group, and to treat outsiders as lesser beings. http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/12/ingro… It (ironically) runs counter to the common belief that morality can somehow be rule-based.
Thank you Erich and Mark. This is exactly what I am looking for. I was only able to watch about 8 minutes of the youtube video, but will definitely view it in its entirety. (with an open mind). I probably should read the book, as well. That, I believe, is the only way I will know where you are coming from. Again, thanks.
Has everyone on this site read the New Testament in its entirety? Not excerpts from other books, but from the bible itself. (whatever version)
Samantha: I have not read the entire Bible cover to cover. I was educated in Catholic schools for 12 years, however, and I am confident that I have read all of the Gospels and most of the Epistles myself. I have read significant sections out of the King James version of the Bible as an adult on many occasions, including sections of both the New Testament and Old Testament. I would bet that I have yet to personally read at least 50% of the Old Testament out of the Bible itself. I would suspect that I have personally read at least 75% of the New Testament out of the Bible itself. I have also read many books and websites discussing Bible passages. On quite a few occasions, I have read categories of Bible passages from the Skeptics Annotated Bible. I am not very familiar with the Koran; I've only read selected passages. A few weeks ago, however, I did load a version of the Koran onto my iPhone and I occasionally read a few verses. I have a shelf of secondary sources at home, including books on Buddhism, Chinese philosophies and comparative religion. I will be the first to admit that I should spend more time on primary sources of religious writings, but that would mean that I would need to give something else up!
Samantha,
I don't know about everyone else, but I have. It's been a while, but I read it in each of the following versions: King James, Revised Standard, and New Jerusalem.
Samantha:
Yes, I have also read the New Testament, probably several times over. Actually, I've read the bible cover-to-cover at least once, also in King James Version.
Samantha
It's been a while, but I've read the Roman Catholic version (circa 1960) at least three or four times (in the 60's 70s while growing up), and the King James (likewise, and also later in comparative religion classes in College). Probably some others in part (since I read pretty much anything I find, and travel a lot)
I don't have a copy on my bookshelf.
I've also read the Koran (in english translation, so it probably doesn't as real to a Moslem) and the Bhagavad Gita (when a student – Peter Brook's production of the epic play Mahabharata was staged in Glasgow, so it piqued my interest) around the same time.
I tend to use internet resources these days.
What about you?
Erich – regarding "Love your Enemy": Many Christians will say they follow this precept, but instead demonstrate the opposite through bigotry and intolerance for the other.
The first step to loving anyone or anything is acceptance. Many religionists (not just christians) seem unable to accept anything outside their comfort zone (e.g. gay, atheist, moslem). This is also a secular issue when any narrow, tribal world-view is imposed and depicted as 'normal'.
The second is understanding, which requires real knowledge of the other. This is also a stumbling block for many religionists, since many religions actively block learning about "the other" and depict such attempts as heresy or apostacy. This also seems to be a problem for many on the right, with attacks on learning and education, depicting 'education' as some kind of 'liberal' disease.
The last step is recognizing, in yourself, your own bias and intolerance – knowledge of self. And such deep self-knowledge is not a characteristic of most religions (nor of most authoritarians).
Without these, love – of any form – is impossible.
If you want to get down into it, then I will tell you that my parents were at one time Mormons. Because they did not like the public schools, they enrolled me in a Lutheran grade school. By the time I was 13 I was a convinced true believer, one of those who would approach strangers with the good news.
But I also was a science fiction reader at an early age and one of the pivotal books I read at the time was Robert A. Heinlein’s “Revolt In 2100.” It depicts a future American theocracy and the revolution that overthrows it.
I have always been a voracious reader and little by little, over time, first noticing the disconnect between what people claimed to believe and how they behaved, then later noticing flaws in the doctrines, finally having a crisis of faith that drove me to examine all manner of religion—I went from church to church to chapel to temple, asking questions, checking them out—I came to see exactly what you say, that Christianity is not a religion but a way of life.
But then I discovered that people really don’t need that to be good or know peace.
So I jokingly say when asked that I used to be a Christian, but I grew out of it. It’s not quite a joke.
There is a reason religions distrust the intellect and often preach against reason and examination. People start asking questions, and they don’t have answers to a lot of them, and they lose parishioners.
The full glorious effulgence of religious experience I felt as a youth when I fully embraced Jesus and all that I discovered I felt when in the grip of great music or in the presence of great art or when contemplating a great idea. The wash of inspiration, the adrenalin rush of feeling “Yes! Yes! This is right! This is Good! This is It!” I found in many other things, all manmade. And I understood then that religion is also manmade and when it produces that feeling it is tapping into the same part of the psyche that all this other wonderful stuff taps into.
I never lost my faith. I just realized what it was as it was happening and I let go of the window dressing.
I’ve been told to my face that I must not have been a “true believer” because if I had been then I would still be. That of course is a cop out critique. It sidesteps the important part of the story.
I do not live exclusively in my intellect, but I have to say that the best emotional experiences of my life have stemmed from the full use of my intellect. There is only one reason individually to study all these things and learn about the universe and that is to keep experiencing that sense of awe and delight and wonder.
In my opinion, Jesus was someone who knew this, too, and he did what he could to free people’s minds so they could have the same experience. The disciples and everyone who followed took that freedom and tried to put it in a package and by so doing they snuffed it out and made it into a new set of shackles.
I trust my intellect. I live for the sensation of experience. You need both in equal measure.
I have studied the Bible for about 10 yrs now. Not just a casual reader, but truly studying it. I believe that I have a solid knowledge of its meanings and teachings, including Revelation, which most churches won’t even touch. This is probably the only solid thing in my life. I am sensing that some of you have a Catholic up bringing, which may be why you are so turned off. Christianity is not a religion, it is a way of life. It’s actually total freedom, having absolutely no attachments to this world. Mr. Tiedemann stated something to the fact that If Jesus is coming back for us, why even mow our lawn. It’s total opposite, you work harder, not because you have to, but because you want to. It’s a change that occurs within the heart first and then the mind. Humans don’t function on intellect alone. Only through Jesus can you love your enemies. This is something a human cannot do on their own. Anyway, I watched the video. It was excellent. I did already know the discrepancies in the Bible, that is nothing new. Most Bibles have footnotes at the bottom alerting the reader. There are many problems with his analysis and I am still checking some things out. Since everyone on this site seems to operate through intellect alone, I will comment later after I check all references.
Samantha: I emote, even when I’m trying my best to be rational. In fact, I must emote to be rational. Through the work of Antonio Damasio, I am convinced that this is a false distinction (emotion vs. rationality). http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-…
Why do you remove comments?
I've only rarely removed comments. Last night we had technical issues, and I placed about 5 test comments, which I removed. Sometimes, people post the same comment several times because they don't understand that they are subject to approval. I delete all but one of the duplicates. On two occasions, we've had big technical issues that caused us to lose a days' worth of comments.
I'm proud to say that I approve almost everything except spam. I've seen some stats that indicated that I've approved more than 99% of the comments being submitted that were not spam. The reasons why I wouldn't approve comments are set forth in the "Comment and Email Policies." http://dangerousintersection.org/comment-and-emai… The main reason I would not approve a non-spam comment is that it was completely off-topic, or that the comment-maker was not interested in engaging in civil discussion.
If you submit any non-spam comment that was did not show up in the site, I invite you to write me. Again, there are VERY few of you.
Mr Tiedemann wrote a fantastic comment in response to one of my comments. It is a shame no one is able to view it. At least, I was able to.
Samantha: I didn't knowingly remove any of Mark's comments. Give me a couple of key words from the comment you're looking for and I'll search for it.
Here's a caveat: We switched to new hosting equipment twice in the past week, and you now have me concerned that there might have been some sort of technical glitch. Again, send me a few key word from the comment that you can no longer find, and I'll search for it myself. If you'd like, write me directly at erichvieth@gmail.com and we can discuss in more detail. I certainly hope we haven't lost any comments. I currently see 319 comments on this post, quite a few of them between you and Mark Tiedemann.
Samatha,
I can vouch for the fact that Erich rarely removes comments. His guidelines are minimal, pretty simple and encourage open discourse among the bloggers, including those with differing opinions. The idea is that we can learn from each other, become part of a virtual community, or neighborhood, if you will, and provide a place for civil discourse of the topics offered.
BTW, it lost one of my comments, too. It might even lose this one.
Samantha asked "Why do you remove comments" The blogs take yet another turn and an unexpected twist yesterday. It is really easy to say something like the files got deleted by an unexpected server issue. Do you really think we, as bloggers, should believe that that was the fate of those two excellent blogs by Mark Tiedemann and by Samantha? Isn't it ironic that the writers that had opposing views to Samantha and Samantha's husband had many reasons why they did not believe the validity of the bible and the integrity of the disciples to invent a story to push forth an agenda. I am starting to question the sincerity, and the integrity of the motives behind this episode of the removed comments. Were they removed because Mark Tiedmann crossed the line because of his heart felt statements? Mark Tiedemann, does this bother you at all that your freedom of speech was violated at all? For years we have been hearing that remarks from the left have been omitted and voices are not heard from the Atheists and the minority's opinion are snuffed out. This is a first for me seeing that a man like Mark and his comments would be hidden from the public to read. This reminds me what goes on in all the great scandals of our time. The question to ask now is: What is the truth. Where does truth come from. Can we even believe anymore what comes from this web site? I am sure of one truth, that I can walk away from this web site today is that we live in a fallen world and it is corrupt with half truths. Like the events that took place in the Garden of Eden, Eve blamed the serpent and Adam blamed eve. Now Erich Vieth blames the server. Jesus in the Bible says Love your neighbor as yourself. If we would obey that very command one would not lie because that lie can bring offense to a neighbor. The same goes for stealing. If we loved our neighbor like we should we would not steal from them. Who is our neighbor? Our neighbor is you and me and all who intersect through life with one another are neighbors. The list goes on various offenses that occur in this world. If we would only love our neighbor like our selves. It is not too late to do so. Of course we cannot do it on our own or by our merit. We need Jesus to changes us form the inside out to do so. have a great day Thank you for reading.
Samantha's Husband: I know that you don't know me, but those who know me well (including Mark) know that I have know motive for trashing opposing opinions. I didn't delete any comments except my test comments in the middle of a technical problem. If you've ever run a big website, you might be more sympathetic to the possibility of technical issues.
Erich-
Some of the comments did indeed disappear, although I didn't notice if they were between Mark and Samantha. One of mine was lost in response to Devi on my egg-recall post. No big deal as far as I'm concerned, but Samantha's husband thinks something nefarious is afoot.
Samantha's husband: you mentioned Eden & the snake…I wonder, do you realize that in the Genesis story, the snake never lies, and God does?
Genesis 2:16-17 says
And then in Genesis 3 we have this:
So God says "If you eat, you will die". The snake says, "No, you won't die, but you will be like Gods, knowing good and evil." Which was telling the truth?
Brynn, you appear in my opinion, to be extremely bright. But your interpretation of Genesis Chapter 3 is incorrect. The serpent entices Eve and she eats and then Adam eats. Adam does die SPIRITUALLY and the decay process of the body also started. You leave out an important verse, which is 15. "And I will put enmity between thee and the women, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (this is a foreshadow of Jesus). Also you left out verse 23. The whole thing should read like this: "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, LEST he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever". now verse 23 "Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken". In other words, God drove them out of the Garden of Eden so that they WOULD NOT eat from the tree of life anymore and NOT live forever in the evil state.
I am not big on posting comments online because for the most part they do little good. That said, I have two thoughts to submit to you all here reading this article and the attached comments.
First, I notice something that has been bothering me for a long time, which is the use of the word "conservative." Politically this word once meant one who favored remaining a monarchy. Meanwhile, liberal meant one who favored promoting individual liberty (Liberty, according to the 1828 Webster dictionary, means freedom of choice) by establishing a republic. After a while, conservative meant one who favored individual liberty while liberal meant one who favored social justice (which stands in opposition to individual liberty because, for example, to help the poor one must violate the liberty, the freedom of choice, of those who would not of their own volition choose to help the poor). Today, somehow the word conservative has come to mean one who favors the government legislating morality thereby taking away personal liberty, the freedom to choose right or wrong. Thus the argument between conservative and liberal is at this point in time an argument between no personal liberty and no personal liberty. So what word do the old-school liberals like me have to call our own? Libertarian? I hate that word. Regardless, please do not fall victim to the mistaken belief that Christians believe in taking away liberty. I personally have no problem with homosexuals, whether their actions are immoral or not is between them and their God as such actions do not harm others. In point of fact, where God Himself did not take their freewill to choose, their liberty to choose, then for Christians to attempt to do so is to take a power for themselves which God Himself refused to take. This sounds like hubris to me, which is the sin of pride, one of the seven deadly sins. Ironic, is it not, that the very "christians" who propose to legislate morality are themselves violating the Christian moral code. Thus the "christians" you complain about above do not truly follow Christianity.
SIDE NOTE: I am not in favor of homosexual marriage because I am not in favor of changing the meanings of words. Marriage historically meant one man with one woman together for life, for the purpose of raising children. I believe a culture should ever endeavor to draw more distinctions with language, not fewer. This means the culture of divorce is not marriage, and neither are a man and a man, nor a woman and a woman, nor a man and a woman who never intend to have children. All that said, I believe the law should not use the word marriage. New unemotional words must be developed to account for the new distinctions, and for use in the law, which is supposed to be "reason free from passion." When I have talked about this with my homosexual friends, one of them joked about making up the word "garriage."
A society where actions which do not cause harm to others are regulated solely because they are distasteful to someone is repulsive to me, and I will fight the conservative just as hard as I will fight the liberal, or anyone else who threatens personal liberty. My biggest question for both groups is, "why can't you just leave other people alone?"
My second point, and one that is becoming increasingly important in today's world, is the deceptive, if not outright fraudulent, misrepresentation of facts. I was earlier reading about "Arming America," a book about the development of the so-called gun culture wherein the author apparently cited fictitious sources or grossly misrepresented actual sources. Such behavior should not be tolerated whether one agrees with the conclusion or not. Period. Several posters have made comments about treating people as equals. Well, is it truly treating another human being as an equal to be deceptive, or is it saying "I am smarter than you who are too stupid to realize I have duped you"? I personally believe the latter to be the case.
You may be wondering how my second point relates to this web page. Quite simple really, I followed several of the links above, which pointed me at an article written by Ebonmuse, who seems to be well thought of here. Unfortunately, I do not have time to double check all of that worthy's bible quotations as this post has taken too much of my time already, but the one I did check was from the Gospel of Luke chapter 12 verses 46-47. Ebonmuse claimed this passage was condoning the beating of slaves, but if you would be so kind as to go and read the preceding verses, you will find this to be a blatant lie (assuming Ebonmuse did not skip reading the setup for the verses quoted). There is another example of this type in the comments above mine where verses which change the meaning were dropped. To engage in this type of behavior while being angry about how others treat their fellow human beings as inferiors seems to be to be either casting the first stone, or noticing the mote in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the beam in your own. ;P
I had judged this site to be reasonable, until I found it promoting those as would engage in such deceit. Now I find it to be just another place with an axe to grind and no real care for other people. You all want to know how to fix America and the world? Start actually caring about the welfare of others and treating them as equals. Period. There is no other way. And it all starts in being careful of the little things, like not calling people stupid by tailoring information to support one's point of view.
Erich Vieth says" I know that you don’t know me"
Erich and others that work hard behind the scene on this web site. I apologize for coming across so harsh after responses disappeared. I feel foolish now for thinking the worst happened to the responses and for thiking it was a left winged conspiracy. It was way over the top of me to insinuate such an accusation toward someone I do not know. You are right. I really have no idea what it takes to run such a popular blog sight with all the servers and intricate other applications. I just felt that people were misrepresented and their opinions did not matter. That act of investigation on you and your team's part, shows me your true integrity along with the other people you mentioned. I work for a world wide company who always takes care of the customer first. This is what happened here. Thank you again and I hope you forgive my insults. I never blogged until a couple of days ago so this is all new to me. Keep up the good work.
Thank you
Samantha's husband: Thank you for your note. I know it appeared odd to see comments disappear, given that you hadn't spent much time here yet. I can assure you that it concerned me too. When things go awry, I do sometimes blame "hackers" until I figure out that there are innocent causes.
At this site, we really do try to be self-critical and invite criticism of others, too, which you can see by skimming through the thousands of comments. In fact the authors and readers are urged to challenge each other. I've had dozens of readers tell me that I'm going to hell, and I've printed quite a few of those comments. I've been criticized for being too conservative and for being too liberal. So I must be doing something right. I haven't very often been accused of censoring people I disagree with, though, so I really do appreciate your most recent comment.
I do hope that you and Samantha continue to visit the site and weigh in with your comments. That will make this a better site than otherwise.
Samantha's husband:
Thanks for your extremely kind comments. I understand the way that those verses are traditionally interpreted within the christian community, which is your interpretation. If you forget about the way you've been taught to understand them though, and just read the verses they way they stand, the traditional interpretation is quite a stretch.
Remember, there were two trees, the tree of life, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There was no prohibition on eating of the tree of life, only that Adam must not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Only by interpreting the death that God warns of as a spiritual death, or an eventual physical death, can he be made to be telling the truth. To me, that's stretching the plain meaning of the text. God says, "if you eat this you will die, that very day." Satan, the father of lies, says, "No, you won't die, but you will have a knowledge of good and evil." Which is exactly what happened, according to the text. God is upset that they now have the knowledge of good and evil, and kicks them out of the garden.
Satan, the evil god of Wikileaks.