I've been listening to the four-part series of conversations wherein Matt Taibbi and Walter Kirn discuss the novel 1984. In Part III, they discuss the horrific social balkanization of the modern day U.S. I transcribed it below:
Re: The Orwellian Future.
Walter Kirn:
And if you're not all educated in this program at once, you're going to fall out with each other?
Matt Taibbi
Yeah, and that's already happened. I mean, I think we, probably a lot of people who listen to this program, have had the identical experience of suddenly becoming distanced and cut off from people who with whom they were close pretty recently, right? And there's this, you know, for me that a there's an Invasion of the Body Snatchers quality to this, where I'm suddenly kind of hiding my thoughts, or either that, or I just feel, you know, increasingly alone sometimes. And I think this is a widespread phenomenon, but what I worry about is, is, is that it's going to disappear, because they're going to get better at this stuff. I mean, the less you know we're we're grounded in history and time, and realize that there are different. There's a whole range of opinions and feelings and things like that, the easier it becomes to smash
Walter Kirn
You don't want to be the control group, the people who aren't taking the drug when everybody else is taking The drug, especially if the drug for them feels urgent, necessary and perfect, and they have committed to it such that even if it has terrible side effects, they're going to keep taking it. All you will do if you don't and maybe thrive is enrage them about the choice they made and now regret and or you just become inexplicable to them. You know, why is Matt? Why is Matt repeating those conspiracy theories? What's wrong with Matt? What foreign government? What happened, you man? What malign entity has gotten a hold of him who's paying him to say these things? Exactly what happened to you? I mean, both you and I have experienced, just recently, a real upsurge in what they call concern trolling, which is, you know, I'm really worried about you, or you used to be cool. Yesterday, I saw a tweet against me, which said, Is this tweet evidence of mania or an untreated stroke, literally physicalizing it, you know, Walter, I think you need to go see a neurologist for your for your tweets. And that causes me to want to withdraw from those people, to want to withdraw from the people who know those people, and it causes them to fear that maybe there's some contagion they might get from me, or they might get punished for knowing me. They don't want to be seen. And as I say, the rate at which this process goes forth, which will be different for everyone and for every group, is going to cause new kinds of rifts we're used to. We're used to balkanization, traditionally, historically, over race, ethnicity, gender, language, religion and so on. But we're now going to face balkanization over submission levels of information.
Matt Taibbi
Yeah, Yep, absolutely. And you know, my cure for this, ironically, you know, has been spend less time on the internet, read more, you know, and that's one of the reasons I think we do this. This the show.
Walter Kirn:
And why should let's and mine too. And why should reading be, why should reading be a remedy for for this kind of cognitive balkanization, I'll call it, because by reading, you go back to a book, especially books that were written at least a few decades ago or more. You go back and you are able to be with peers in a way you're able to feel a sense of community, an intellectual community, that you can't get now. In other words, it's a less fractured existence, a less fractured reality. You. Uh, because the book has created its own in a way, community of minds. And there are commentaries on the book and and it was also written at a time when this balkanization was less advanced, and you do really find refuge,
Matt Taibbi
You do. And I mean, I remember this, when I was a kid, the the feeling, you know, if you if you're one of those kids, like I was, who, you know, had trouble at school, wasn't popular, like, if you were bullied, if you were any of those folks,
Walter Kirn
You're so big, how did they bully? Well, I wasn't big until
Matt Taibbi
A certain point, and then, yeah, then it became a, anyway,
Walter Kirn
Puny ass bitches, yeah.
Matt Taibbi
But, you know, I had a hard time when I was a kid for a variety of reasons, and, and, and I remember having this thought that, wow, like, you know, there are these people who are long dead, who I seem to have be closer to than anybody that I meet all the time, you know, in my regular daily life and but also, what's important about books is, is that it forces your mind to do things that In a society that is sort of anti thought. Those muscles are kind of turned off, right? You have to construct images. You have to feel other people's feelings. You have to do all these things that doesn't do it for you. It doesn't show it to you. And you know, the weaker that muscle gets in your head, the easier it is to kind of stamp out your individuality, and books force you to get back in shape spiritually a little bit, and they do. And so it's, it's a beautiful thing, still, but,
Walter Kirn
But also for a book to work except for, except for radical experimental books that are, you know, determined to be incoherent and jagged and, you know, internally contradictory. But for most books to work, they have to present an internally coherent universe. Okay? And it's just like going on vacation to immerse yourself in a coherent universe, even if it's a nightmare like 1984 because the much worse nightmare than being in a coherent airstrip one Oceania, World of 1984 of nightmarish political oppression is to live in a world of absolutely splintered, uncertain and unstable, endless surprise, contradiction and disappointment and in, you know, and social,
Matt Taibbi
Incompatible, paradox, all those things, yeah, absolutely.
Walter Kirn
It's like going to a small town 1984 you know, it may be the most nightmarish small town ever built by man's mind, but at least you feel, after you started reading it, that you know how it works and what its rules are and who the people are, and little of what to expect.
Matt Taibbi
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. So nightmarish as this is, it's still, it's it's still a respite in some ways, so but horrifying part of the book still relevant anyway, thank you, Walter.
Steve Kirsch and Bret Weinstein have also spoken of the substantial social costs one incurs by being true to one's self in a time when many people delegate fact-finding to their favorite tribe