At DI, we have an extremely conservative fellow visiting the blog these days. He’s trying to convert all of us to his reactionary world view. He clings to his Bible as a book of literal truths and he seems to love everything that Sarah Palin ostensibly stands for. I’d like to issue a challenge to this fellow, who goes by the name “Erik.” To me, he represents many people out there who seem to believe that if you pretend something isn’t important, it isn’t important, even if it IS important. This includes such critical topics as as Iraq, the cobbled together all-too-human nature of the Bible, Global Warming and, of course, sex education.
Please tell me which of the following sexual education topics you would rather that our children not know anything about. Please tell me in what specific ways we should keep children, including teenagers, in the dark.
These topics are actually the chapters of a popular book that I have read. I would wholeheartedly recommend this book to any parent seeking a sex education book for their children: It’s Perfectly Normal: Changing Bodies, Growing Up, Sex, and Sexual Health (2004), by Robie H. Harris (Author), Michael Emberley (Illustrator). Here are the topics:
Part I – What is Sex
Girl or Boy, Female or Male (sex and gender)
Making Babies (Sexual Reproduction)
Strong Feelings (Sexual Desire)
Making Love (Sexual intercourse)
Straight and Gay (Heterosexuality and homosexuality)
Part II – Our Bodies
The Human Body (All kinds of bodies)
Outside and Inside (The Female Sex Organs)
Outside and Inside (The Male Sex Organs)
Words (Talking about Bodies and Sex)
Part III – Puberty
Changes and Messages (Puberty and Hormones)
The travels of the Egg (Female Puberty)
The Travels of the Sperm (Male Puberty)
Not all at Once! (Growing and Changing Bodies)
More Changes (Taking care of your Body)
Back and Forth: (Up and Down – New and Changing Feelings)
Perfectly Normal: (Masturbation)
Part IV – Babies and Families
All sorts of Families (Taking care of babies and kids)
Instructions from Mom and Dad (The Cell, genes and chromosomes)
A kind of Sharing: (Cuddling, kissing, touching and sexual intercourse)
Before Birth: (Pregnancy)
What a Trip! (Birth)
Other Arrivals (More ways to have a baby and family, including adoption)
Part V – Decisions
Planning Ahead (postponement, abstinence and birth control)
Laws and Rulings (abortion)
Part VI – Staying Healthy
Talk about it (sexual abuse)
Checkup (Sexually Transmitted Diseases)
Scientists Working Day and Night (HIV and AIDS)
Staying Healthy (Responsible Choices).
So what is it, Erik? Should we avoid teaching our children about puberty? Sexual feelings? Masturbation? Shall we keep our kids from knowing anything about any of these sex-ed topics? Truly, tell me exactly how ignorant you want to keep America’s children and teenagers. Should we keep this book out of America’s public libraries? Should this book even be sold at all? You are aware, aren’t you, that many parents are so mentally stymied about sex (because their own parents thought it better to keep them ignorant) that they don’t have a clue about how to communicate these sex-ed ideas to their kids. Shouldn’t those parents have access to a book like this to provide them with clear information about compelling topics?
Here’s a caveat to those people who want to live in ignorance: you can peek in this book at Amazon–beware that you might learn something.
For a little journey that is pretty amazing, though not unexpected, take a look at the comments regarding this book at Amazon and you’ll be Amazed at the cultural chasm displayed. This book typically gets either 5 stars (from people who want their kids to be informed about these important topics) or 1 star (by people who want to keep their kids ignorant about sex). Too bad Bristol Palin didn’t have a book like this a year ago.
Because you might actually learn something important by reading it, It’s Perfectly Normal is one of the top ten challenged books of 2007, according to the Economist.
You wrote “At DI, we have an extremely conservative fellow visiting the blog these days. He’s trying to convert all of us to his reactionary world view.”
As I said you “free thinkers” are all the same. You are all for free thinking as long as everyone thinks like you do. When someone contradicts you with a plausible argument then you get defensive and try to attack the character of the one making the argument instead of the argument itself. Did you all go to the same school? You guys are the pretenders, ignoring the facts and making up stuff as you go. I am just relating the reality of the world around us.
Why do kids have to be taught about homosexuality? I know why. Because new people have to be convinced to choose to become homosexuals otherwise they would cease to exist (they do not reproduce). Might as well start when they are kids to have a better chance of convincing them (evil tactics). Question, I do not see the word family mentioned in the outline of chapter one. I suppose the sex is taught separate from marriage. Good job, promote immorality from the very beginning. Are you seeing a pattern here? I sure am. You want to teach people that masturbation is perfectly normal, wow, no shame in your promotion of immorality. If you study the Scriptures you will see that Satan is a master of mixing some or a lot of Truth with just enough of a lie to make it deadly. This is what is being done here in the so called “sex-ed” book, mix some good things with deadly poison. In other words, drink this full glass of 99% clean water with just 1% deadly poison. Next all sorts of families. The family was created to be between one man and one woman, people decided that they thought they knew better than God and started trying all sorts of “different” family types. The results speak for themselves and the sad part is that the innocent ones, the children, are the ones who suffer because of the sins (stupid decisions) of adults. Laws and rulings, the fact that supposedly rational human beings would decide to murder their children, please teach people what abortion is, murder, don’t dress it up with rhetoric that tries to take the sting out of the truth.
Because immorality is heavily promoted one of the unfortunate results is sexual abuse. If immorality were portrayed as it is, shameful, then sexual abuse would decrease. Also STD’s are a direct result of the saturation of immorality. We could eradicate STD’s if we followed God’s plan. As long as immorality is promoted (also in the form of homosexuality) then AIDS will flourish as it has since the “sexual revolution”. As I have said, the Bible gives the best form of sex ed, the only one that will protect a person 100% from STD’s (AIDS). So do you still want to promote immorality and continue putting people at higher risk for STD’s and AIDS or do you want to inform them of the truth that will protect them at all times.
Welcome, Erik. Now the readers can see that I wasn't exaggerating.
Now, if only there were a way to stop God from making all the OTHER homosexual animals! http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0…
Please study the Scriptures that you seem to think are irrelevant. You are against God when it hurts your argument but try to use God to promote your argument, really nice, double standard all around. Is it like this with all liberals? Oh yeah, I forgot, YES.
God created a perfect world, no homosexuals but mankind decided to sin and brought all kinds of problems into this world. The world became cursed along with the animals. You are looking at the current world and assuming that God caused it to be that way. Assuming is bad but liberals are the best at it.
Erik wrote:–"Why do kids have to be taught about homosexuality? I know why. Because new people have to be convinced to choose to become homosexuals otherwise they would cease to exist"
Tell me something, Erik. Did you have to be told to be a heterosexual? Did you have any difficulty whatever recognizing that you were attracted to girls? Was there the need for some propaganda machine to make sure you wanted to have sex with females?
I seriously doubt it. Which kind of begs the question—why would you assume such a thing must be the case for homosexuals?
You argue from such ridiculous bases that it is difficult to take you seriously. But the folks here are doing a fairly admirable job of treating you so.
The current world is pretty much as it has always been. People have sex. Telling them to keep in marriage has never worked. Marriage is wonderful when it a chosen path, but for so much of history it has been a system for controlling who will pay for the resultant children. Sometimes there has been love, but that is a modern take on marriage. In times past, especially in the Old Testament Levant, it's mroe a business arrangement among parents.
But people have always done what their impulses have driven them to do. It's ostrich-like to assume you can just rag on people and scare them into changing behavior which, for some us, there is no reason to change.
In the Old Testament, multiple wives was pretty much a given. If fairness was at all at issue, why not multiple husbands?
But that's rhetorical.
I would point out, though, that it is not Liberals who seem to have the worst records of hypocrisy concerning matters of sex, but far right conservatives, who talk a straight-and-narrow line and seem to think that entitles them to fuck whoever they please. And when they're caught, they throw themselves on the mercy of the tribe with claims of "I was weak!" It's pathetic.
And pretty pointless.
I should stop now. I have other things to do.
Erik, you accuse Erich of having a double standard, but you do the same thing. You use God when it supports your argument, but anything that seems to reveal imperfections in God's universe you attribute to man's sins or the very convenient Satan. Homosexuality is an inborn characteristic, like right or left-handedness, no matter how much you don't want to accept that.
You seem to be a very intelligent man. But when you state that homosexuals can be "made" you reveal a very profound misunderstanding of human nature. Tell me Erik, could anyone or anything have made YOU into a homosexual?
Erich,
If I sent in a comment that I believe in Martians, would you try to convince me I am wrong?
Why does it matter to you what this person believes?
Seriously. I'd like to know.
Oh come on, Erik. Why do you think there's so many teen pregnancies these days?
I was taught sexual education at grade 3-5, and I never turned into a sexual deviant. I even was taught about homosexuals, sex, AIDS prevention, condoms, female anatomy, male anatomy…All of it. I benefited from it, seeing as how I'm STD free, and I know how to use a condom. Now, I see kids curious about sex, because they never learned about it at all, and you want to keep them ignorant about prevention? Why? For the love of your insignificant god why? They think pulling out is a safe measure. They grow up confused about what side they're attracted to, and end up worse off than we ever did.
You need to grow up, and have some sexual education. Then you'd realize that it is in fact needed in the education system at the point when puberty starts in children. Maybe then they wouldn't be so freaked out by the blood, or the boners.
Here's a study guide to the "best form of sex ed": http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sex/long.htm
The bible teaches what to do with rape victims (stone them), that only women are infertile, that infertile women can overcome their problem by offering birth mothers to their husbands, that offering your daughters to be raped is the moral thing to do (they will repay you later by having sex with you and bearing your children/grandchildren), that you shouldn't ever look at a menstruating woman, that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men, and much much more.
You see, the scriptures really ARE irrelevant.
Huh?: Excellent question.
I know that there are millions of people like Erik out there. In the aggregate, they can swing elections. Bush has appointed many people like Erik to run my government. I think some dialogue is in order so that we can better understand each other. At some point, though (we're getting close) we're all going to be repeating ourselves, so it will be time to move on.
I suspect that there are some people tending toward the mindset of Erik, but without the certitude and passion, perhaps some teenagers and young adults. I'd like these exchanges to be available to them, so that they can see the dialogue.
Most interesting to me is that Erik has been repeatedly disproved (when he said that the rate of pregnancy has INCREASED over the past decade, or when Dan Klarman advises him that evolution HAS been documented in the lab, or when he is reminded that it is a rare day when anyone chooses his or her sexual orientation). He has been disproved with objective statistics and credible third party accounts.
Yet we don't hear him say anything, ever like. "Oh. I was wrong. I didn't know what I was talking about. I need to understand the things that I am attacking. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the Bible was written by human beings and it is not literally true, and in fact, it is full of some terrible advice, along with some good advice. Maybe I need to actually get to know a gay person as a friend before I dump on them further, in harsh wide-sweeping fashion. Maybe I'm insecure in my own beliefs, which causes me to lash out at anyone who believes differently. Maybe I don't have to be accusatory every time someone disagrees with me. Maybe I should post LINKS to information that I want to share rather than spinning it wildly and anecdotally. Perhaps I should take the time to read some of the many DI posts that have carefully discussed almost every one of the topics I've raised before busting into the site and acting like I'm a know-it-all that can set everyone straight. Maybe I don't speak for all Christians, but only a small subset permeated with Nietzschean ressentiment."
For those wanting to see Erik's other comments, many of them are located under this post: http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/09/15/palin…
But back to Huh?'s point: Why? I'm glad we've had this vigorous exchange, which has exposed a prominent political viewpoint for what it is. I think it's been worthwhile. It's also fascinating to see the extent to which lack of evidence is not a problem for many people. It's allowed George W. Bush, John McCain and Sarah Palin to find many supporters. It's incredible that so many people can be persuaded without any credible evidence.
This all brings me back to Jonathan Haidt's thoughtful analysis of why liberals and conservatives talk past one another. This exchange is proof that talking doesn't work. I hope Haidt is correct, that there is potentially another way to facilitate widespread cooperation between the two major sides in the culture clash that is playing itself out in the U.S.
• Mark Tiedemann
You wrote “Tell me something, Erik. Did you have to be told to be a heterosexual?”
Is this the best argument that you can come up with? This is the text book argument of free thinkers, not so free if you ask me, there is such uniformity. Brainwashing makes everyone think the same way, see any similarities?
My sexuality was chosen for me. When I was born a male there were 2 options, either celibacy or marriage to a woman. Now, I can choose to be homosexual, which is a sin, but I must be convinced to choose that option. All homosexuals choose to be homosexual, there is no “gay” gene and nothing forces someone to be homosexual.
Mark Tiedemann
Show me how I argue from “such ridiculous bases”. I want proof and not just empty words.
Marriage was instituted by God along with sex, between a man and his wife before sin entered into the picture. After sin entered, people wanted to do their own thing so they did not seem to think marriage was that important. As you know, if people followed God’s plan for marriage and sex then we would not be plagued with STD’s, but wise, “enlightened” minds like yours keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. That is the definition of insanity by the way.
I am not ragging on people or trying to scare them. I am simply informing them of the truth. You guys are the ones trying to cover everything up, sticking your head in the sand does not change the simple facts, we are killing ourselves with STD’s at an alarming rate, something that could be stopped if we would get our heads out of the sand and follow God’s plan.
Be careful about the vulgar language that comes out of your mouth. The Bible speaks on that issue and it is not good
Matthew 12:34-37 34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35 "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Now I am pretty sure that you do not care for the Bible but It is speaking directly to you here. You have the choice of listening or not but do not forget that you choose the actions but God chooses the consequences.
• Mike Pulcinella:
I do not use God at all. I am relating the simple facts. God created a perfect world, no sexual sin (homosexuality) or imperfections. Sin comes into the picture and distorts everything. That is a simple fact. You can choose not to believe it but that does not change the fact. Can you show me an example (scientific example) of the gay gene? There is no proof that it is inborn, but like Hitler said, “If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough then people will begin to believe it”. That is exactly what homosexuals are doing. Read “The Overhauling of Straight America”. Let me change the rhetoric, homosexuals are convinced to choose to be homosexuals. I see a striking similarity among most homosexuals that I know, they were sexually molested as a child. I have one friend who no longer wants to be a homosexual. He became a homosexual when he was convinced by some friends to try it. He did not want to at first but they were insistent and convinced him to be open minded and try new things. He listened and now he is trapped in a deadly lifestyle and wants out. This is what happens when homosexual groups go to elementary schools to teach kids “about” homosexuality.
• Mobius 1:
Teaching kids that immorality is wrong is not keeping them ignorant. Not teaching kids immoral things is also not keeping them ignorant. On your behalf that is an ignorant argument. I am glad that you are STD free but the sad fact is that 8,000 new teens are not STD free everyday. Condoms do not protect 100% against STD’s, not even close!!! Do not be so naïve. The Bible says that a man will reap what he sows and that God is not mocked, He will judge immorality. You can put a condom on but a condom is not powerful enough to stop God’s judgment. You want proof? 19 million new cases of STD’s every year in the USA. We are killing ourselves. I want to teach kids about prevention. You can prevent STD’s and teen pregnancies by remaining a virgin until marriage and being faithful during marriage. There is only one person who was impregnated while being a virgin and God told us that it would happen and it will not happen again.
• Stephan
Hey buddy, why don't you read the Bible text for yourself next time. The Bible says to protect the rape victim by punishing the rapist with death. Otherwise the rape victim is victimized twice, once by being raped and a second time by not seeing the guilty punished. This is typical among free thinkers, they do not see what is there written in black in white and they make up their own ideas. Why do you think rape is at an epidemic level today in the USA? Because the guilty are punished with a slap on the wrist and send back on the streets to rape more innocent victims.
• Erich Vieth
Get your facts straight, I said teen pregnancies decreased when abstinence was added to the educational program in the 90’s. Do not write what you “wanted” me to say but write what I actually wrote. Maybe I missed that part on the proof in the lab, have we seen an entire new species evolve out of another? Why should I say I was wrong when I was right? I have not seen any answers to the questions on evolution but I guess they cannot be answered so it is better to avoid them, right. Move on to the next topic. That is the way that the liberals work, when defeated just change the subject.
Can you prove for one second that the Bible is not literally true? No you can’t so you just say it hoping that people will blindly accept your opinion as fact.
Again, I do know gay people, as well as former gay people. By the way, if homosexuality is not a choice then how can there be former homosexuals? Please do not bring that ridiculous argument that they “were never really true homosexuals to begin with” because you do not have the ability to know the thoughts of others, only God knows that, unless you consider yourself equal with God, many liberals do.
Talk about lashing out at anyone who believes differently. I have used plausible arguments to prove the reality of things and so called free thinkers do not like it because I do not agree with them. Again, it is free thinking as long as you think like “we” do!!!
I have tried to post links (not the document) but for some reason they do not appear so do not continue blaming me for something that is YOUR fault as the moderator.
I am sharing what the Bible says. If people do not like it then they need to take it up with God and not with me, I am just the messenger. Again I am being criticized for sharing my thoughts on a blog that is for “free thinkers”, you need to add a subtitle to define “free thinker” one who thinks like a liberal.
Stephan beat me to the punch, but yes, indeed. Do read the "Sex" excerpts from the Skeptics Annotated Bible for comprehensive sex education. I said comprehensive, not helpful, meaningful, decent or medically accurate. There's both a long version (See Stephan's comment above) and a short version: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sex/short.html
"I have tried to post links (not the document) but for some reason they do not appear so do not continue blaming me for something that is YOUR fault as the moderator."
Erik: I have posted every word of comment you have sent, except for one extremely long passage. Instead of publishing that long passage, I asked you to post links.
Yesterday night, I went into the spam filter and found one of your comments.
I have no reason to not post your comments with the links. As you can see, I have allowed your comments to come flowing in like water out of a fire hydrant. I'm not censoring you. Your accusation is thus puzzling.
NARAL is offering this slogan for the McCain campaign:
"McCain-Palin: 15th Century Solutions for the 21st Century."
Erich and Erik, you guys spend a lot of time on different conversations.
Erich, Erik is convinced of his infallibillity, you can't change him! Stop trying!
Erik, Erich is convinced of his fallibility, you can't change him! Stop trying!
As Yoda said; "There is do, and not do. There is no try!"
The two of you need to agree to disagree, and move on with your lives.
God loves you both, even if one of you is an immoral nihilist!
I have posted two links one to MassResistance (the video of homosexuals influencing elementary school students) and the link to that long post that I posted. Neither of those have been posted, after I send them they do not even go to the pending section, they just disappear. I want to post them but they will not post. That is not my fault so please stop trying to use the argument that I am not posting links against me.
back to the Bible quotes that Stephen gave.
As you can see he was wrong about rape and every other so called mistake so you can apologize for giving wrong information and admit that you were wrong and need to pay more attention next time. Can a liberal free thinker do that?
The argument about evolution is not scientific (evolution vs creationism) the argument is about world view (religion). Evolutionists want to live without restraints so in order to justify their actions they want to say that something came from nothing and life is by chance so it is not very valuable. That is why they can murder innocent babies and still sleep at night. If creation is true then their whole world view falls apart. If creationism is true then God created everything and has the right to tell us what to do (do not murder innocent babies). So let us not miss the forest because of the trees. Liberals demand that evolution is true to justify their worldview (religion) and really could care less about the science involved.
If you want to teach evolution in school and are so sure that it is 100% correct then why are you afraid to allow a different opinion?
Literally, the bible repeatedly says the world is flat, and never once says it is round. It also defines pi = 3.0, making any round earth a hexagon.
Or are these parts just allegory, rather than literal truth?