If you’ve ever read the book of Genesis in the Bible, and exercised at least a little bit of skepticism, you might have noticed that the Official Creation Story contains several conspicuous omissions. I’ve already discussed one of them — the strange case of the Tree of the Knowledge — and now I’m going to discuss another one: who created hell and why?
Why doesn’t the book of Genesis discuss this? The holy text goes to considerable length to credit the god-of-the-Bible with creating everything else in our universe — the sun, the moon, the stars, our planet, every living thing, etc. In fact, the authors of the Old Testament were so enamored with this story that they included a second version of it in Genesis chapter 2. So, why doesn’t the Bible mention who created hell? Indeed, why doesn’t the Bible mention who created *any* of the Bad Stuff — the Serpent who supposedly tempted Eve and forever tainted the entire human race, the demons who supposedly serve the Serpent, the burning hellfires of damnation where they all live…? Obviously, if the god-of-the-Bible created everything in our universe, then he *must* also have created the bad stuff, but why doesn’t the Bible ever mention this?
And, more to the point, why did the god-of-the-Bible create this stuff? Why did he create the Serpent, knowing (because he knows the future) that the Serpent would eventually cause humanity to fall from grace? Why did he create demons, knowing their sole function would be to spread turmoil and strife? And why did he create the burning pit of hellfire, knowing that its sole purpose would be to torture humans who, for whatever reason, didn’t get his message? If you were the Supreme Creator of the Universe, and you had infinite love for all the humans you created, would you create all this bad stuff? Do human parents arrange such things for their disobedient children? Really, was it necessary for the god-of-the-Bible to create eternal torment just to punish people who didn’t sufficiently worship him? Why not condemn heretics to eternity in, say, a sports bar, or a lukewarm Jacuzzi, or a casino in Vegas? You know, something bad but not really that bad. Why hell?
I don’t know about you, but it makes no sense to me that any infinitely loving god would create hell. It’s obviously a self-contradiction: an infinitely loving god would never have created that stuff; therefore, if the god-of-the-Bible created that stuff, as the Bible implies, then the god-of-the-Bible either doesn’t exist or is not infinitely loving.
Maybe that’s why the Bible doesn’t discuss it.
Or as the band Cake put it: "sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell."
As far as I'm concerned the Hell question has never been answered. Many people have attempted to do so and performed all kinds of theological Cirque du Soleil-esque mental contortions and gymnastics, but the end result is always incoherency, special pleading and more question-begging that one begins with. Perhaps that's because the history of Hell, Satan, Beelzebub, Lucifer, whoever and all the little wizards & warlocks of the underworld have such a long, winding & interesting history (as detailed nicely by Mark T). The history of the devil alone is as fascinating to me as the entire history of Christianity, and seems to attract as much heated debate and hollow apologetics as any other Christian tenet. Of all the Christian tenets, however, I find the existence of such a despicable place as Hell to be the hardest to defend or justify. It immediately renders false the idea of a supremely loving entity when that entity is perfectly OK to inflict infinite punishment for a finite crime.
Hank, it's even worse than "inflict[ing] infinite punishment for a finite crime".
You need commit no crime other than suggest their god isn't really there. For that you go to hell.
According to the godbots, you will go to hell even if you happen to live a reasonable life, are kind to pets, children, and your neighbors, never cheat on your taxes, help old ladies across the road, and all kinds of good deeds, and happen to be atheist.
Regardless of all your good works and humanity, if you happen to deny the existence of god, you'll go to hell. If you suggest simply that you are agnostic on the questions since 'there is no proof': you'll go to hell. If you suggest that their sacred writings suggest a somewhat dichotomous god, with serious continuity issues (bad enough to get him kicked out of the screen writers' guild) – you'll go to hell.
Petulant narcissistic hollywood b-listers are less judgmental than their loving, benevolent, all powerful, all knowing god!
Not even a statute of limitations.
Really, eternity is a long time to be punished for . . . well . . . damn near anything. I wouldn't wish eternal torture on anyone for any act, no matter how heinous. I don't understand the mindset of people who consider hell to be a reasonable "invention." Perhaps they don't understand the meaning of "torture" or the meaning of "eternal."
The very concept of hell is, for me, proof that the god of many believers is created in man's image and likeness.
Absolutely agree with both of you.
God is indeed created in our image: jealous (he even says so in the first commandment), vengeful beyond all proportion (God's version of "eye for an eye" translates to "everlasting torture for non-belief"), petty past any degree of childishness.
When I first learned about Greek mythology and how all those gods are basically superhuman representations of human emotions, I applied the same theory to "my" god and hey presto. It all fit! I remained a believer for several years after that but always with certain caveats and always thinking of a good argument should I ever have to meet my maker and account for my life. Even when I was a Christian I didn't think Hell was justifiable, especially for something as small as non-belief. I was always of the opinion that if a person was basically more good than bad, he'd get into Heaven regardless of the particular god he worshipped. It's pretty sad – and mighty un-Christian – that so many Christians think any non-Christian, atheist or not, is doomed to eternal hellfire.
One of my turning points was when my dear old Mom, a wonderful loving lady without an ounce of hate or anger in her body, told me that she felt sorry for our neighbors. Why? Because, as protestants, they would never get to heaven! Straight to hell, for a choice made by their great-great-..-grandparents (or more likely a choice made by the ruler of the land where they lived at the time!)
That single statement, made without hesitation or thought of error, pointed out to me the huge cognitive gap between 'good' and 'god'. That people are damned from the get go is, to me, entirely fitting for a god in the ancient Greek mould, but not for an loving, beneficent god who cares about 'his creations'.
I could never worship such a broken, hateful, spiteful being.
“It is not acceptable to have a religion where the alternative to faith is punishment — that’s how you train dogs, not develop people.”
– Deng Ming-Dao
I like that a lot!
If McD's want to attract new customers or keep existing ones, they don't threaten to firebomb their houses if they go to Burger King – they get off their arses and invent a new sandwich!
I've heard from many apologists that Hell is just a consequence of heresy or apostasy or non-belief or sin – God LOVES you, whoever you are, and he doesn't WANT to send you there, but if you do anti-God stuff, down you go. Well, that's how the freakin Mafia operate: "Nice place you got here … it'd be a shame if something, I dunno … HAPPENED to it. We can protect you [from us] if you cut us in." Simple. Introduce the threat, cultivate the fear, sell the solution. Sort like those how those wacky neo-cons got themselves re-elected in '04.
A few years ago, GrumpyPilgrim made a comment that has stuck with me ever since: God loves us like an abusive parent.
Appropriate. I like it.
"Love me or so help me I'll fuck you up and I have no choice in the matter." Real nice all-loving god you got there, pilgrim.
Y'all don't know whereof you speak! God is really a mute Alanis Morisette with a wicked cruel sense of humor. There is no hell, we all get into heaven, even you immoral nihilistic atheists. If I don't see you before then Hank, we'll have a few and discuss theology.
hell was created after lucifer a trusted angel of god for some reason had feelings and so he spread the word through out heaven? when lucifer and his followers tried to take over heaven god and his mighty army of angels over powered pushing them from heaven to earth were they became the devils /satan
Angel: I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
Angel: I don't understand. You say God pushed Satan out of Heaven and yet He wasn't able to stop the devil from setting up a rival camp called Hell?
Satan is constantly working to ruin everything that God created. It seems to me that to allow this to continue to happen means one of two things…
1. God is not omnipotent and is not really in control of His universe.
2. God WANTS Satan to do what He does. In other words, Satan is still working for God.
Is there a third possibility?
Angel
Lucifer is the "light bringer" and does not appear in any account of Genesis. The equivalence of Lucifer and Satan is a later medieval conflation.
Maybe you should read the book you proclaim to know more about than the rest of us – maybe try a version with actual words this time.
Angel,
That's Milton, not Moses.
Hell was created by God way before the garden and man was ever created. Lucifer and his followers were striped of their first estate (angel status) and were given a kingdom to rule called hell. Hell was not meant for mankind.
That's why hell wasn't mention in Genesis chapter 1 – man was innocent and had no knowledge of evil or Lucifer or even Satan. They only gain the knowledge of evil after they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
In Genesis 3:3, states that God gave man a warning not to touch the tree or eat of it or else they would die. This death wasn't just physically, but also spiritually. Spiritual death is the death of the human spirit. In other words, total separation from God. One can only have a relationship with God if he has a living spirit. Man's spirit died in the Garden and all of man's offspring would fallow they same fate.
In Genesis 1:22 says that man had the knowledge of good and evil just like God. However, Because man choose to disobeyed God, spiritual death fallowed mankind.
Every person born after Adam and Eve would be born with the sin nature and a dead spirit, separated from God and upon physical death, man would go to hell to pay for their sins and be totally separated from God. Satan rules hell.
That's why Jesus, God's Son was the only chance man had to restore man's Godliness. Sin,(the act of disobedience) came into the world through a man and only a man that has never sinned can pay for the sin of mankind.
Jesus, the Son of God came as a man and took the sin of man upon himself and said before dying, "it is finished", he died and went to hell and took the key of death and hell from Satan. He spent 3 days there and hell had to release him because hell is for sinners and he never sinned.
After his resurrection,the price for man's past, present and future sins was paid for in full. Now each person must choose to follow God's way or the world's way, which is rule by Satan.
And good works will not get anyone in Heaven. The only way in through Jesus. There is no other way.
John 3:3 state, unless a man has a resurrected human spirit, he or she cannot enter Heaven period.
If God wasn't a loving God, then why he sent his Son to take the place of mankind and die on a cross and go to hell for us? He restored manking. And better then because in the garden man was a innocent child of God. Now, thanks to Jesus, we are joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).
Do you know that means? It means we are equal with Jesus. Having the same power through his name,(John 14:6)
That sounds like loving God to me. Has a father myself, I would give my life for my kids so that they wouldn't have to suffer.
I hope it answered some questions.
Reverend,
That's good Milton, but ultimately just fiction.
Mark…Just because you don't believe or understand the good book, doesn't mean it's fiction.
A couple of 100 years ago people believed the world was flat, and to say the world was round was considered fiction.
Every cities or civilizations mentioned in the good book have been documented to have existed exactly where it said it did. But also, artifacts and ruins have been found to reinforce what the good book says. Is that call fiction?
"A man was driving down a country road then was pulled over by the police. The man ask, why he was pulled over. The officer said that he was speeding. The man said he saw no speed sign. The officer told him that some weeds was covering the sign. The officer gave the ticket and left.
The man was mad. He decided to fight the ticket in court. When that day came, he gave the judge his argument. The judge said to the man, Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
In other word the judge was simply tell him that just because didn't see the sign doesn't mean its not there.
Rev,
Just because Atlanta is depicted in "Gone With The Wind" and there was something called the Civil War, does that change that book from fiction to history?
Also, people in ancient Greece knew the world is round, hundreds of years B.C.E. People here and there, from time to time, have lost that knowledge and regained it, usually because someone in authority found it useful to teach that view to them. (Hm, I wonder why?)
Just because the archaeology of Jerusalem, Jericho, and so forth has verified the existence and much of the history of such places is no reason to accept the mythic confabulations of the authors of the Pentateuch with regards to creation—no more than the actual existence of Troy proves that Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo, and Athena were real.
And trust me on this, Reverend—I understand the bible. I've simply come to a different conclusion than you.
Rev. Claude needs to read some actual history. The diameter of the Earth was known (within a few percent) hundreds of years before Jesus. This knowledge was not lost to navigators or intellectuals, even if the uneducated public might have missed it. After all, the Bible itself misleads on this point: Inerrant Biblical Geology Falls Flat
The Bible is a good blend of allegory and myth. That locations mentioned in it actually existed is as amazing as there being a city on the north eastern coast of America that strongly resembles Metropolis, as documented by DC Comics. This is not proof of Lois Lane.
Well what a story someone made up. And why exactly would someone make up such a tell? I'll tell you what. I died 10 years ago and you would never guess what happened. I had given up on God and religion. I scoffed God in the face. Two months later I became very sick. I died. I had thought for sure that there was a hell and I was doomed to go there. Almost the moment when I left my body, I went to heaven. Yes folks. I went straight to heaven! And as a matter of fact, I was with God in heaven and we were checking out the universe. God was so concerned for my fear that He went out of His way to show me the far reaches of the universe and every thing in it. It was his deep desire to assue me that He had never created such a place. He wanted me to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that His love was unconditional. He wanted me to return to the Earth to tell everyone that I came into contact with that man had made up in their imagionaltions a hell that did not exist. There was no fear. The only hell that any of us will ever experience is the hell we create in our thoughts. Can you hear me? Are you listening? There is no eternal HELL! Know this and be free. "You shall know the truth, and the trugh shall set you free." Be free and keep in mind while you are free that there are still consequences in this life. For every cause there is an effect. We do reap what we put out there. I give you peace and blessings.
Jeanette: With all due respect, you didn't die or you wouldn't have been able to write your comment.
…It got better…
Jeanette you've got to quit using LSD as it can destroy your mind eventually.It seems whenever anyone wants to convince someone their religion is true that will find a way even if they hatch it or cross it with the truth. The Mormons do it, the Catholics do it, the Zhur Brotherhood does it, The Hitteons do it, the Muslims do it, the Wiccans do it, the Hindus do it and all the cults do it, but fiction can be written to sound as if it were truth and truth can be made to appear as fiction. If anyone is gullible enough to fall for the con games, the scams and the charlatans then they are either brain-washed or immature or insecure. First they have you believing there is a Santa Claus, then a Tooth Fairy, then an Easter Bunny and gradually wean you in to a hocus pocus invisible god who lives in the sky in Never-Neverland where if you obey his most high you will go there when you've dead and if you've bad you are sent to a place where the air-conditioner is always broken and the forest is burning up and the fire trucks are all broken down and can't help you. So you've born and right away your parents being followers of the Great Daddy in the sky force feed you their dribble and by the time you are an adult you have become a human robot until you end up in the metal heap upon your death believing Big Daddy is going to come for you any day now as long as you keep reading his little black book.
Uwanna my invisible rubber band?
Back in high school, I once convinced a classmate of mine that I was in possession of an invisible rubber band. I did not intend to deceive the young lady. I was just clowning around before class.
One of the network TV stations had premiered a new series based (loosely) on the character of "The Invisible Man" the night before, and while waiting for the first class of the day to begin, almost everyone in the room was talking about the show. I was in a silly mood at the time, so when someone described a scene from the show, I would simply state, "So what! I have an invisible rubber band."
After I had said this two or three times, this girl setting at the desk next to me turned and said "You do not have an invisible rubber band!"
I answered her with "Sure, I do." and mimed the motions of taking a rubber band out of my pocket and pretended to stretch it. "See?"
She said she didn't believe me, so I offered to shoot a paper wad with my invisible rubber band.
"Let me guess", she said, "An invisible paper wad."
I told her she could supply the paper.
She tore the corner off a sheet in her notebook, handed it to me, saying "I HAVE to see this!"
I pretended to set the rubber band on my desk, took the paper and folded it into the little paper bullet commonly used as rubber band ammo. I then mimed the motions of stretching the rubber band between my left thumb and index finger, picked up the paper bullet between the right thumb and mid-finger, pretended to hook the paper bullet over the non-existent rubber band, drew back and flicked the paper between my left thumb and index finger, giving the illusion that it had been shot with a rubber band.
I did not realize she would be so gullible.
Not only did she believe it, she felt it necessary to tell everyone in the classroom about my invisible rubber band, including the teacher, who had just entered the room.
I then understood that some people will accept any simple explanation no matter how impossible it is.
Rev. Claude wrote, "That’s why hell wasn’t mention in Genesis chapter 1 – man was innocent and had no knowledge of evil or Lucifer or even Satan. They only gain the knowledge of evil after they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
Since God sees the future, He would have known about the Fall well before He created humans; therefore, He would have created Hell knowing that humans would eventually wind up there. Accordingly, the question remains: why would a supposedly infinitely loving god create Hell knowing that His creation would spend eternity there? And why go through all the nonsense of impregnating Mary with a child to absolve humans of their sins, when absolving humans of their sins could obviously be done without such an elaborate fiction? (BTW, for more about the Tree of Knowledge, please see my earlier post that is referenced in my post above.)
The creator God of Genesis was probably not one God at all. The writers were polytheists and would be confortable with a plurality of deities and demons. It is only in redaction that Judeo Christian monotheism has been written back into the O.T, but the clues are still there to be found.
So the O.T god(s) did not have to make hell, it could have been made by Baal or one of the others
Even the Christian 10 commandments (and Gen 20-21 from which they are excerpted) hint at multiple gods. They don't read "I am the only God" but "You will not worship other gods before me". Those other gods must be pretty tempting if the commandments have to start by saying not to look behind the curtain.
Further to Dan's comment, I have also wondered about that Commandment against worshiping other gods. Just who was the god-of-the-OT worried about? Some rival god(s) who might be cutting in on His turf?
Seems to me that the whole notion of monotheism in the OT probably came from earlier similar religious beliefs in Egypt, from where (whence?) the Israelites fled (to then wander in the desert with Moses).
Yahweh (in my take on the fable) was not worried about other gods, he was worried about the fickle attention of his followers. It is a tacit admission that people make a god and that if they direct their worship toward another of their choosing, functionally it's the same as there being other gods.
(Consider that the impatient morons waiting for Moses to come down from Ararat forced his brother to *make a god" for them to worship, the infamous golden calf.)
The Hebrews were singularly monotheistic, not pantheists. This is one of the reasons everyone around them considered them such pains in the ass—they were always blowing into the area and condemning local religious practice.
And for what? A god no one could even SEE? What's up with that? Look at ours! You can see it! We spent a lot of time carving that thing out of granite or casting it in gold, and here you guys say it's not real and that an invisible something-or-other IS?
(Interestingly, I think this is a suggestion that a lot of these so-called primitive pagans may not have actually regarded their own gods as actual, real entities, but something a bit more metaphorical—the statues may have been little more than a locus of concentration for the the contemplation of something even more numinous than the invisible deity of the Hebrews, which actually had some fairly heavy-duty restrictions that came with the package.)
Anyway, we may also be coming up against the usual problems of translation, transcription, and telos.
Just a few obvious examples
Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground (Genesis 1:26)
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of US, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3:22)
Come, let US go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other (Genesis 11:7)
Actually polytheism is in some ways more rational than monotheism. It accounts for the problem of evil and theologically would explain realms like hell
Atheist MC wrote, "Actually polytheism is in some ways more rational than monotheism. It accounts for the problem of evil and theologically would explain realms like hell."
Elaine Pagels wrote a great book titled, "The Origin of Satan," that explores the way in which the mythology about Satan evolved over the centuries — from initially being a *servant* of the god-of-the-OT (sent to earth merely to obstruct human activities), to being a *worthy opponent* of that same OT god.