Once in a while, I tune into KJSL, a St. Louis Christian talk radio station. I do this as part of a conscious effort to make myself listen to people with views that are dramatically different from my own. Perhaps I will understand those views better if I take the time to listen more.
While I was driving last week, the station featured a show called “News and Views,” hosted by a man named “Dr. Larry Bates.” The host repeatedly painted the future of the US as bleak, thanks to irresponsible financial policies by the federal government. Because I have some sympathy with that general conclusion, I continued to listen. It turned out that Bates was predicting the imminent financial collapse of the United States. Although I doubted that conclusion, I continued to listen.
Bates then indicated that he is also a big proponent of religious “End Times.” In short, he believes that Jesus will soon be returning to Earth in order to sort things out. I have no sympathy for this religious view. In fact, I find End Times beliefs to be irresponsible and destructive for the numerous reasons. For example, I do not hold the Bible to be inerrant. Based on my study of the Bible, although it offers some good stories and some reasonable moral instruction, it is also rife with bad advice, contradictions and senseless violence.
“Dr. Larry Bates” wears many hats. He claims to be an economist, publisher, editor, former member of the Tennessee House of Representatives, former bank CEO and a “nationally recognized expert on political systems and the Federal Reserve.” Bates is also the President of First American Monetary Consultants, Inc. (FAMC), an organization that allegedly does “economic and market forecasting, in addition to offering a wide variety of other End Times services. “News and Views” is a syndicated radio show, available dozens of radio stations across the U.S. Larry Bates is thus well known in some circles.
After listening to Bates for only a few minutes, I learned that the United States needs to immediately and mercilessly bomb Iran because of what “those people” have done to “support terrorism.” I also learned that we need to support Israel without question, based upon what the Bible says. I persevered to the end of the show, saddened by and frustrated with the flimsy manner in which Bates attempted to support his conclusions.
At the end of the show, it was announced that Bates was going to be featured at a half-day conference in St. Louis, I took the bait. I thought it would be interesting to better understand the basis for the views of End Times (both economic End Times and religious End Times) proponents. The conference was called “Perilous Times: Significant End Time Events.” I paid $20 and showed up at the Crystal Ballroom of the Renaissance St. Louis Grand and Suites Hotel in downtown St. Louis. Here’s my ticket:
At the registration desk, I received a folder full of information. One of the pamphlets advised me that legalized gay marriage is a major obstacle to democracy:
When the US Supreme Court ruled in Lawrence v. Texas last year that sodomy is a constitutional ‘right,’ the director of the lambda legal fund-a radical homosexual-agenda of pressure group-gleefully explained that this marks the beginning of the end to traditional marriage.
Another pamphlet advised that the United States is officially a Judeo-Christian nation. It quoted William Penn: “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” This pamphlet, printed by FAMC, “proves” that the United States is a Christian nation based upon the fact that the Constitutions of many of the states mention “God,” or “the Creator.” As though non-Christian religions don’t believe in a “God” or a “Creator.”
There were numerous products displayed and advertised at the conference. These products are the sorts of things you’ll need to have if you are going to be prepared for the economic and religious End Times. If you want to prevent cancer, you need to load up on Glutathione. The pamphlet says “your life depends on Glutathione.” To buy it, contact FAMC, according to the pamphlet.
What if you just want to make sure that you have access to “the most universal antibiotic” known to man, colloidal silver? It’s a “tasteless, odorless, non-toxic, purer, natural substance consisting of submicroscopic clusters of silver particles suspended by a tiny electric charge placed on each particle.” According to the pamphlet, you drink it. It kills all those pesky pathogens and protects all your good cells. According to the pamphlet, it is useful for treating allergies, boils, herpes, stomach flu, lime disease, gonorrhea, bladder irritations and chickenpox. The list goes on and on. Colloidal silver can be used vaginally, anally or dropped into the eyes.” You can even make your own colloidal silver out of silver wire, using the $189 generator you can buy from FAMC.
Another pamphlet advised me of my right to participate in jury nullification whenever anyone is being prosecuted for a gun crime. That is because “corrupted, anti-gun prosecutors and judges are common.” This information is distributed by the Fully Informed Jury Association.
After the economic collapse, you’ll need to make better use of all that expensive gasoline that all of us are going to need. Therefore, make sure you buy the “Power Plus Mpg” additive. Using this Power Plus, you can save 25 to $.50 per gallon. During his talk (which I’ll discuss in detail further down), Larry Bates bragged that his 5 mpg SUV improved its mileage 50% (to 7.5 mpg) after he started using this Power Plus. Those attending the conference were even invited to sign up as Power Plus distributors.
Additional Pamphlets were available advising how to support efforts to find those “30,000 POWs [who] were known to be behind alive after WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf and War on Terror.” There was also a table full of conservative-message bumper stickers.
The nice old fellow minding that table offered me a chance to take any one of those bumper stickers for free. I really struggled to find anything that didn’t offend my politics (maybe I am a liberal). After searching for a full minute, I picked up Smoke – Choke – Stroke – Croak.
I wasn’t really at the conference to dwell on the End Times products, however. I was there to listen to “Dr. Larry Bates,” just like the 200 other people who attended. Although the crowd included a handful of young adults, most of those attending were in their 60s or 70s. As is often the case with groups of conservative Christians, this was an extremely polite and orderly group. People held doors for each other and took time to exchange pleasantries.
Dr. Larry Bates introduced himself and then introduced a local preacher who opened the meeting with a prayer. Almost everyone bowed their heads respectfully. Then it was time to offer a few door prizes. The winners had a choice of two books: The Coming Financial Wipeout or America’s Christian Heritage.
Then it was time for four-hours of lecture. Bates bemoaned the lack of pastors in the audience. He complained that too many church leaders were “eating the sheep rather than feeding the sheep.” He asked for a show of hands of those who believe that we were in the last days, and perhaps a third of the audience raised their hand. When he asked whether we were in the very last days, 15% raised their hands.
Bates informed the audience that their job was to “raise up wisdom.” This has to be done by taking back the media, he explained, although “Fox news is one of our best news channels.”
He explained that the next election is the most important one ever. It will be about “class warfare.” The election whether we’ll have less government and bigger government. It’s between monopolistic versus competitive capitalism. Although the Republicans are imperfect, according to a distressed Bates, the only real choice in this upcoming election is Republican. More on this further down.
The United States is under attack by economic and political elitists who want to keep the middle class trapped as pawns and serfs in this elitist version of a caste system. These are desperate times, because “There are only two countries in the entire world where the middle class runs the government or has the opportunity to run the government: the United States and Israel.”
The elitists are “One World Socialists” according to Bates. They want to level everyone out to make everyone equally poor, except for themselves. A repeated target of Bates was the Federal Reserve, which “only looks federal and has no reserves.” Bates could barely contain his scorn for the Federal Reserve, which, he repeatedly emphasized, was totally owned by private bankers.
Bates is highly suspicious of George W. Bush’s “New World order.” It is a conspiracy against the people of the United States, and it amounts to “one world socialism,” an attempt to make everyone poor except for an elite ruling class. He exhorted that the creation of the Federal Reserve was a conspiracy to rob the American middle class. The Federal Reserve is a “criminal syndicate.” According to Bates, the head of the Federal Reserve is more powerful than the president of the United States. In all earnestness, he told the crowd that the 1938 panic-provoking radio adaptation of “War of the Worlds” was not entertainment. It was a test by the government elite to see if the federal government could maintain control over the New World Order.
What are the elitists trying to do? They are trying to create a North American Union. They want to merge the United States, Mexico and Canada and to destroy the sovereignty of the United States. That’s why we have a lax immigration policy, he warned. What’s the solution? “Build a fence and keep them out.” If the rate of immigration exceeds your rate of assimilation, “you lose your country.” Throughout his talk, Bates insinuated that the impending economic collapse will coincide with the religious Second Coming.
The Democrats are the party of big government, militant homosexual “rights and domination.” The Democrats are Socialists, from the party of Karl Marx, where the government owns and controls everything, including all means of distribution and production. “Liberals hate property rights.” Bates drew numerous parallels to the Soviet Union, where people had to wait in long lines for everything. That’s what the Democrats would bring us, he urged.
He warned that you can’t overlook the Republicans just because are imperfect. He understands that “Jesus Christ is not on the ballot.” If you hurt the Republicans, “you hurt yourself.” “Dingy Harry Reid “is corrupt and Nancy Pelosi is “a disaster.” Whenever you have a strong economy, you’ve got limited government. “It’s that simple.” Are there any litmus test for politicians? Absolutely. Don’t vote for anybody who believes in any right to abortion. “Nothing tells you more about politicians that sanctity of life. If they don’t get this right, they get nothing right.”
What else did he think about some the candidates? There was no holding back. Hillary Clinton shouldn’t be president because God has a natural order for things. Bates paused to caution the audience, “I’m not a chauvinist.” Then he forged on: “God is the head of man and man is the head of women. A two-headed family is a freak.” He offered this evidence of his position: Indonesia is struggling because it is a matriarchy. To allow women to run the country is to violate God’s order. God says there should not be a woman president. It is as aberrant as “letting children run a household.”
According to Bates, “Barack Hussein Obama” (he repeated this full name several times) is a radical muslim who was educated in a radical muslim school. His Church is full of people who, according to Bates, hate white people. [For those who are concerned about Obama based on Bates’ outrageous claims, check out this and this].
Are there some good Republican candidates? You bet, according to Bates. For instance, Tom Tancredo got it right when he recently got tough with Muslims. Bates described it like this: “if you use a nuclear device in the United States, then we will use a nuke to take out Mecca and Medina . . . [applause] . . . Brutal force is the only thing these birds understand.” Upon hearing and seeing this, I was stunned. Though I tried, I couldn’t recall the particular verse of the Bible where Jesus said, “If someone shits on you, shit on them.”
But Bates wasn’t done with the Muslims. According to Bates, the goal of Islam is “world domination under sharia law.” There are three types of followers of Islam, according to Bates. Type 1 is a revolutionary who sets off bombs. These people are terrorists. The second type is an evolutionary follower, distributing propaganda and prolifically “breeding.” The third type is a westernized Muslim who probably hasn’t even read the Koran. Nonetheless, those westernized Muslims will fall right in line, especially when those other Muslims threaten to cut off their heads or attack members of their families. The Koran “tells you “to kill and who to kill,” according to Bates. It tells you to kill Christians and Jews.
According to Bates, Sam Brownback of Kansas is misguided (too liberal) on immigration, perhaps because of his Catholic conversion. He doesn’t understand that we’ve simply got to keep those immigrants out.
What are some of the big issues of the upcoming election? National health insurance is a big issue. If we have national health insurance, it will “ruin the country. The country ends when we enact national health insurance.” What’s the evidence for this dramatic prediction? Tennessee has free government medical care, yet (according to Bates) nobody signs up for it. Therefore, there’s no need for national health insurance. Under national health insurance, Bill Clinton would have had to wait six weeks to get an appointment and six months to get his necessary surgery. National health insurance involves the “efficiency of the post office and the compassion of the IRS.” Furthermore, it will “drive the cost of health care way up.” National healthcare will bankrupt the country: “The government that can give you everything you want must, by definition, take everything you’ve got.”
Bates warns that people need to quit concerning themselves with the healthcare establishment. In fact, he’s suspicious of the healthcare system. People need to focus on preventing disease rather than treating it. They need a laugh more. “Laughter is better medicine.” People would “rather be victims-our diseases are other people’s faults.” People need to take responsibility for their own good health, said Bates, who looks to be a few pounds overweight. It all starts “with what you put in your body.” Bates then spent a serious chunk of time touting the healthcare products displayed on the tables in the lobby.
Bates explained that churches will need to get more into the healthcare business, because they have more to offer than the healthcare establishment. Churches have the courage to “tell the bums that they are bums” (I wondered what the bum lobby would think of this statement.
We have too much Blue Cross and Blue Shield. We depend too much on man and not enough on God. We’ve replaced God on the throne with government on the throne. We look to Jehovah government instead of God.
Bates announced that if anyone gets sick, it’s that person’s own fault. There are plenty of things you can do so that you don’t get sick, according to Bates. You can take regular doses of that colloidal silver I first learned about from the handouts. He announced that colloidal silver kills all bacteria. Someone in the back of the room then announced “Amen!” Gee, Larry, I wondered. Are you sure you want to kill all the bacteria in your body, including the beneficial bacteria that reside in your gut? He marched on, undeterred. Bates claims that he puts silver in his milk to keep it from spoiling. It will never spoil as long as you put silver in your carton of milk. He urged the audience to buy the colloidal silver generating kit, so they can make their own colloidal silver. He warned the audience that the FDA does not want people to know about the amazing healing powers of silver. The FDA doesn’t want the competition—it would put some big pharmaceutical companies out of business. In fact, the FDA is about to try to outlaw the use of silver as a medicine. Modern pharmaceuticals are “witchcraft.”
What else can you do to stay healthy? If you’ve got cancer, make sure you consider getting vitamin C injections. These have been phenomenally successful, according to Bates. This new knowledge about the healing powers of vitamin C reminded him that the Bible predicted “God’s plan of healing.” This kind of “new important knowledge” is another sign of “the last days.” We need to be the “salt” (disinfectant of the evil people) and the “light” (spreading wisdom). Bates warned that many believers are going to have to do God’s work on their own because churches “have been corrupted by world government.”
What would you do if you’re laid-off in the impending economic collapse? You need to get a trade. You need to do something with your hands, such as plumbing or electrical work. “The time will come when you have to barter your skills for someone else’s skills.” The End Times are apparently not going to be pretty.
The last section of the presentation was an indictment of US monetary policy. Bates pointed out that the United States now has $25 trillion in domestic debt which must be serviced, whereas the M2 money supply is only $7 trillion. This sets the stage for the economic End Times. The government can either go into default work or print fake money to dilute real wealth. He warns that the U.S. is busy printing lots of fake money. That’s what the recent $300 billion injection of “new money” was. It was used to allegedly stabilize the stock market. He warns that it would take a 7.1% added payroll tax to service our current debt, an amount that would break the backs of most families. Bates sees a massive restructuring of the social security system forthcoming, including raised taxes and reduced benefits, as well as means tests.
What can we do about the impending economic collapse? One thing is that we can make sure that no one takes away our guns, said Bates.
There will be no total economic collapse until there is total gun control. The tyrants don’t want to deal with an armed populace. The enemies of liberty hate your guns. The Second Amendment protects the First Amendment.
Here’s what else you can do, according to Bates. Elect people who will build fences to keep out the immigrants. Hone your communications skills, because the upcoming wars will be wars of world views. According to the Bible, “when you see the enemy, you’ll need to warn the city.”
As far as protecting your assets, Bates gives this advice: Stay away from “Loanership” assets, such as Money Market funds, T-bills and CD’s. They are “pieces of paper: IOU’s. Beware of real estate, in this age when the government is taxing it heavily and abusing eminent domain. Instead, load up on precious metals, such as gold and silver coins. This is especially important, given that the U.S. has long been off the gold standard, which has invited the dollar’s slide versus most currencies. He claims that you should not get gold or silver bullion because federal law gives the government the right to confiscate these in times of economic emergency.
Who’s going to buy your precious metal coins in the time of economic collapse? Bates is convincing to me when he answers that question with another question: “Who is going to buy your paper dollars?” He characterizes gold and silver as “money.” Everything else is only “credit.”
So Bates’ program includes both saving and eating silver! Where are you going to get all of those precious metals? From a reputable company like FAMC, of course. Bates tells you to buy precious coins and his company is happy to sell them to you. He told the crowd that precious metal coins are “real money” and that they will be exchangeable until the absolute end of time. Didn’t the Bible say that people will throw their gold and silver into the street? Absolutely, says Bates. But that will be toward the end, when we’ll see a “large scale transfer of wealth from the wicked to the righteous.” It’s all in the Bible, according to Bates. Up until those End Times, then, rely on precious metals, says Bates, citing Ezekiel 7:19 (“Precious metals very valuable until the time that God’s wrath is poured out”) and Haggai 2:6-9 (End time transfer of wealth using precious metals”).
Bates is not embarrassed about having money. “God doesn’t mind if you have nice things.” You should use and enjoy your money, he stresses. Have as much of it as you need, even if you use it to buy expensive houses, cars and vacations. No problem. It’s only the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. His literature cites Proverbs 28:20 (“Eager to get rich; will not go unpunished”), Ecclesiastes 2:26 (“One who pleases Him receives wealth”) and Genesis 2:11-12 (“God put gold in the earth for a reason”).
—
It’s hard to know how to sum up this Perilous Times Conference. The lessons taught by Bates are laced with radical conservative values, that is true. His characterizations of both Republicans and Democrats are cartoonish. His xenophobia and racism (especially toward women and people from the Middle East) are intense. His plan to capitalize upon the fears he drums up, both economic and religious, is predictable and obvious.
Bates has a ready and willing audience, because his targets are big and fat. Anyone with energy and creativity can vigorously hack away at pharmaceutical companies, drug companies, bankers, politicians and bureaucrats. If you can convince your audience that it might lose much of what it has worked for, you could readily stir up their deep fears about out-groups such as gays, women, atheists and immigrants.
Bates is playing a game that is played by many people who have some legitimate credentials. During the final portion of this conference Bates sometimes sounded like someone who was giving some reasonable economic advice based on sophisticated training. He sometimes spoke as person who relied on his training and experience in economics and banking. I am not an economist or a banker, and I have not read nearly enough to know the extent to which Bates is giving decent economic advice, though what I have read about United States fiscal policy also concerns me greatly. I’ve seen similar admonitions regarding the United States fiscal policy on “liberal” shows such as Bill Moyers. I think it is this part of the show that gives Bates the foot in the door with his audience.
Nonetheless, it is a standard trick to parlay one’s legitimate credentials far beyond the realm of one’s expertise. When Bates talks with ultra-assurance of the alleged Second Coming of Christ or when he touts the medical quackery he is so happy to peddle, he looks both naïve and devious. Shame on his audience members, though, if they really step up to buy that little bottle of fuel additive that will allegedly make their humongous SUVs get 50% better gas mileage. Shame on the people who think that the FDA is trying to outlaw silver potions because drinkable silver is so incredibly good that it would put pharmaceutical companies out of business. Shame on people who trust people who sell snake oil.
I couldn’t help but conclude that there is much in common among the sorts of people that listen to Bates and the sorts of people with whom I more commonly associate. We are all worried about our corrupt government, our poisoned food and water, our shortsighted fiscal policies, our many failing schools, our own deaths, about numerous people illegally pouring over our borders, about the many people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol and about a media with an agenda secretly dictated by those who hold disproportionate power. Many Believers and non-Believers are downright suspicious of organized religions. We differ profoundly, however, in the ways in which we would address these threats. What Bates offers is a bomb-shelter mentality. He relentlessly warns his audience of the need to hunker down and protect one’s own and let everyone else be damned.
As I left Perilous Times Conference, I wondered whether it would be an impossible task to convince the people in that audience to put down their Bibles and roll up their sleeves when they discuss politics. I wondered whether these people would ever be willing to open their minds to diverse ideas from people who might look and act differently than they do. I wondered whether Bates’ fans would ever be willing to look at their own cherished ideas as skeptically as they look at the ideas of others. I wondered whether they would ever be capable of pretending, even for a moment, that they were not under attack by all of those people of the world who they don’t know well. I wondered whether they could ever be convinced to consider that strangers are, for the most part, people with hopes, dreams and fears much like their own.
After mega-doses of Larry Bates, is it even possible for people to consider that there is a vast commonality all people share and that this could really be a starting point for a functional world view, one that is not based on paranoia?
Karl writes:—"Tell me again that we don’t live in a values driven culture that believes what it tells others establishes an interpretation of facts into our ideas about reality which we believe to be truth."
Of course we live in a values driven culture. But values, as ineffible as they usually are, must be based in something. We can base them in wishful thinking (religion) or we can base them on some semblence of reality (science). Neither religion or science is a substitute for those values and when either tries to be we end up living according to rather fascistic standards. What they are are ways of looking at the world and each other.
So far so good.
When a basis for interpreting reality is shown to be a mirage, we have a choice—base values on it because we simply wish it to be so, or look for something that has somewhat more concrete components. That choice is a value trait.
If a doctor is going to operate on me for cancer, I would prefer to have one that has based his or her abilities on an understanding of biiology and anatomy rather than one who bases her or his approach on faith that whatever happens, everything will work out according to god's plan.
That desire on my part is a value. The approach chosen by either doctor demonstrates a set of values.
It is clear therefore that the differing bases on which their values are based are not and cannot be equivalent to each other, either from first principles or in expected outcome. Because their choices demonstrate values is no reason to claim that "values" somehow renders their worldviews equally valid, reliable, predictable, or philosophically tenable.
If, Karl, your comment was meant to purport that WallBuilders.com and its founder David Barton are being unfavorably persecuted because of their religious beliefs, you have failed to investigate the allegations being made. What these empirically verifiable charges suggest is that David Barton is a man whose research is demonstrably false and revisionist: a man who "cherry picks" in a transparent attempt to push his dominist agenda, remaking America into a Christian America, or, more to the point, into an WASP America of a distinctively evangelical flavor. (Incidentally, that does not speak for all Christians, much less all Americans.) Whether one is a person of faith or otherwise–and incidentally, I happen to be a person of faith–falsehoods are falsehoods, and revisionist histories can and ought to be exposed for what they are.
There is no reason why faith and reason cannot live peaceably together, though in order for this to happen there needs to be a space made for both. The problem with men like Barton is that they want to take their particular understanding of Christianity and effectively rewrite government, and they justify this domininist theology with revisionist history. I am a person of faith, but men like David Barton do NOT speak for me. For one thing, I do not agree with dominist theology. For another, I do not believe that the power that Jesus wielded was one of force. His power was the power of attraction, the power of love, literally the power of caritas, the source of his charisma (literally "divine favor").
By contrast, dominist theology is intent on rewriting the world in its own image, rather than offering other human beings the dignity of respect to believe (or not believe) as they so choose. It seems to me that this kind of dignity and respect is fully in keeping with what Jesus taught. I do not want to have people who do not share my values and beliefs imposing their values and beliefs on me, and, in keeping with the teachings of Jesus, I do not believe that my own values and beliefs should be imposed on others. If other people choose to adopt my values and beliefs, it will be because there is a tangible demonstration in the quality of my life and the words that come from my lips, not because I want to rewrite the federal government in such a way that my beliefs and values are imposed on others, in many cases against their will.
Dominist theology, it strikes me, is self-interested, intent on preserving what is mine. By contrast, what Jesus suggests is exemplified in virtues like kindness, compassion, and respect: it is not heavy-handed and it is not authoritarian.
If you are a person of faith, Karl, or, more to the point, if you believe in the words of Jesus (I do not know your faith affiliation, though based on the fact that your comments suggest WallBuilders, I am presuming you identify yourself as Christian and likely evangelical), I invite you to reflect on what that might mean publicly. I do not believe that the Religious Right speaks on behalf of the values that Jesus himself advocated; in fact, I believe that the Religious Right is very often antithetical to the very ideals of the gospel of charity and benevolence. That is not going to be enacted by any public policy. If people are drawn to these teachings, they will be drawn because they see in them their own inherent value.
Domininists/revisionists like David Barton of Wall Builders do NOT speak for me, and if they do speak for you, for future reference, you had better carefully vet David Barton. If you do, you will find that he is not a very credible spokesperson for your desired political position. It is better to be honest and admit that it is an agenda that cannot be historically substantiated than to be misleading at best and deceitful at worst. Isn't that at least a point we can agree on? The need for transparency and honesty? If you agree with the political aims of men like David Barton, say so, but don't reference their spurious research as credible, as that will ultimately only fall back down on your own head. Distance yourself from all that is false.
Karl, why are so biased that you only consider right-wing conspiracy theories? I think you should give equal time to left wing conspiracy theories too. Why, I bet you totally believe the Bush Administration and the naturalistic scientists at Scientific American when they say that the World Trade Center towers collapsed due to impact of hijacked planes. The 9/11 Truth organization has proved this to be totally false! The collapse was due to controlled demolition carried out by our government in fulfillment of the New World Order Agenda Educate yourself! Also, go out and get yourself an orgone pyramid (google it) immediately before poisoning from chemtrails (another arm of the New World Order Depopulation Agenda) destroys any more of your brain cells!
Mark says:
"When a basis for interpreting reality is shown to be a mirage, we have a choice—base values on it because we simply wish it to be so, or look for something that has somewhat more concrete components. That choice is a value trait."
There you have the leap of faith in regards to matters that are full of personally chosen perspectives. Something or someone convinced you of a geological mirage, partly because you didn't have a means of scientifically connecting the enormity of the transformations that would have had to occurr during this series of events. It is much easier to stretch the data out into millions of years than to consider how it might all piece together into a much shorter time frame.
Geologists claim there is absolutely no scientific evidence for a world wide flood of the proportions described in Genesis, they claim to have shown it to be a mirage. You are blind to the issue I speak of, and will not consider evidence for the mirage. You hold this tenaciously because of the worldview you have.
I hold an opposing world view which to you is unscientific.
Karl writes:—"Geologists claim there is absolutely no scientific evidence for a world wide flood of the proportions described in Genesis, they claim to have shown it to be a mirage. You are blind to the issue I speak of, and will not consider evidence for the mirage. You hold this tenaciously because of the worldview you have.
I hold an opposing world view which to you is unscientific."
True. But that in no way makes out separate views equally valid.
(And btw, just for the record, you have no way of knowing how much ability I have of connecting the dots. You assume I have little only because my conclusions differ from yours. On the other hand, from your posts, I assume you do have the capacity to draw reasoned conclusions, so I can only believe that you have opted for the wor;d view you have for other than scientific reasons.)
Mark, I admit I interpret the geologic data according to a model that to me is both scientifically feasible and reasonable to my perspective of the world in general.
You claim that your understanding of science dictates what is feasible in regards to the model it believe best fits. I see my bias. do you?
I'm glad you see your bias. That is neither a necessary or sufficient condition for being right.
BTW, I was spoon-fed the religious view as a youngster. Science saved me.
Please!! Will somebody try to reach Vicki Baker?!! Some poor, deluded fool has placed a posting on this site and placed her name on it.
Where do I start? Dr. Larry Bates is a Godly, Wise man and his advice should be taken seriously. We are in the End Times everything that is going on in the world today is predicted in the Bible! Yes it is!
You can not read the Bible only using your brain but also your heart, God can reveal truth to you, if you let Him!
The Bible is backed up by science, Yes it is! But that is a whole other debate.
I can't wait to see the look on your face when Jesus does come back, but I will also be sad, that you never did come to know the truth.
Just some facts: Christians do not hate Gay people, we actually love them just like anybody else. just because we don't think there lifestyle is right does not mean we hate them. If I was boiking my goat in the barn, you would probally think I am wierd and disagree with my lifestyle, but you would'nt hate me would you.
If you disagree with Christians or don't believe in God, then don't listen to us. but if you believed you had the secret to eternal life I bet you would share it too! We share it because we love you and want you to see heaven also. not the alternative!
God is real more real than what you see in front of you and all you have to do is seek after him with your whole heart and He will reveal Himself to you.
Have a good day and God Bless!
Bob: please, put down your cup and step AWAY from the Kool-Aid.
Seriously, perhaps "hate" is not precisely the right term, but it's pretty obvious that many people who call themselves "Christians" do display hostility toward homosexuals. These self-righteous bigots merely wrap themselves in the Bible because doing so gives them cover for their prejudices. That's not to say all Christians are such bigots, but the few bad apples tend to spoil the basket.
You know, the Spanish Inquisition professed the deepest love for the heretics whose parts they stretched, broke, or snipped off, right up till they died. Loved them to death, you might say.
Grumpy,
If a few bad apples spoil the basket analogy really applies, then we're all guilty by association. When is the last time you said something that indicated your disaproval to one of the invited approved bloggers here that were simply showing their baser animalistic outlook on life?
Heterosexuals could get along fairly fine with homsexuals, if homesexuals were willing to keep homosexual "advocacy" out of the public schools and let adults age 18 and older deal with these issues as they arise. Teaching tolerance is different from advocacy, many students and teachers and parents don't know the difference. From what I have observed, most homosexual activity begins from the influence of older homesexual "advocacy" during the formative years. The presentation of just another alternate lifestyle is not taught from a perspective of tolerance, but rather one of advocacy. Very often young people are really moved in one direction or the other by those who advocate a specific life style the most strongly in the individual's life.
If Christians are told to stop advocating for abstinence, to stop advocating sexual self-control, and to stop "recruiting" candidates for heterosexual monogamous marriage relationships then the same should apply for homosexuals.
The strange thing is – teaching an individual about the specifics of their sexuality in experimental and experiential ways often begins them down a road they will find hard to steer their way through, as other people almost invariably are at least partly responsible for what and how they have learned or experienced these strong emotions.
I can be tolerant of someone I don't agree with. I could however offer information leading to the arrest of people that I have evidence were breaking the law. I could even go so far as to attempt a citizens arrest if police weren't around in some cases. The difference is if I didn't have evidence of law breaking I might very well be showing bias or hate mongering. The easiest way to avoid all of this would be to drop all manner of laws that deal with adult sexual interactions with children, minors, interns or employees. That way we could all be 100 percent tolerant.
When adults don't agree, we need to model tolerance. Where children have not settled upon a perspective on life – we should advocate for heterosexual marriage not gender confusion or homosexuality.
I once heard Pat Roberston condemn the film "Trainspotting" on the basis that it "glamorizes" drug use. I had a "Huh?" moment. Had the man seen the film, I wondered? There is absolutely nothing in it that glamorizes anything concerned with drug use. It shows the life of addicts as ugly, hopeless, dead-end roads, from beginning to end.
Then I realized—by his lights, TALKING ABOUT IT AT ALL WAS GLAMORIZING IT.
So, Karl—in your opinion, what counts as "advocacy" and what as simple "transfer of information"? Or do you think any mention of a gay lifestyle that isn't outright condemnatory is glamorizing it?
Karl says:
Sound like you are equating homosexuality with pedophilia, or something. Wrong!
I find your post quite vague and rambling, but it sounds like anything that portrays homosexuals as normal human beings counts as "advocacy" in your mind. By your reasoning, my 13 y.o. daughter should be hopelessly confused by all the perfectly normal homosexual soccer moms, PTA parents, teachers, ministers, school board members, mayors and state legislators she has encountered in her life…
I really don't care who she ends up going out with, as long as she is happy and in charge of her sexuality. I'm just glad she is not as not as boy-crazy as some of her friends.
In fact, I would be perfectly happy if all advocacy of all traditional heterosexual gender roles in the schools would stop – no dances, no homecoming king and queen, no cheerleading squads*, no locker room talk, no dating before age 30. (j/k)
* Except for Cheer San Francisco, but they are adults and not school-sponsored.
Mark asked:
So, Karl—in your opinion, what counts as “advocacy” and what as simple “transfer of information”? Or do you think any mention of a gay lifestyle that isn’t outright condemnatory is glamorizing it?
When ex-gays are treated the same as ex-smokers I would say advocacy is headed more towards a proper definition of tolerance.
Hollywood has done enough to glamorize gay lifestyles and thought processes to qualify as information overload. Then smokers quit they are now hailed as model citizens, but when gays repent and quit they are hated for the rest of their lives. If tolerance were real those who have left the lifestyle and speak about it shouldn't be attacked and hated by the gay community.
Those who seriously consider the impact gay marriage will have upon a society should not be labelled as homophobes or prejudiced. Not everyone considers gay rights the same as civil rights believe it or not.
Tolerance crosses the line into advocacy when someone who is an ex-gay is shouted down as being less than human and doesn't know what they are talking about. People can and some have left their gay lifestyles but they are condemned by gays who will not consider it as anything but hate speech and prejudice.
Religion and values clarification apparently can "brainwash" someone into a decision that they really have no right to talk about. These people have as much right to speak up and be heard as anyone else in this country but they are the real brunt of hatred for what they represent.
How dare someone make a declaration by a change in their lifestyle that others can change as well.
When repentance results in a changed life that is real change people should take notice of. Instead these "preachers" are labelled as antagonistic and lacking social understanding of the life style they once knew all too well. Go figure?
Note from Admin: This conversation migrated here and is off-topic. To discuss gay marriage, go back to a relevant post, for instance: http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/11/08/the-b…
Hi,
I found this site after hearing Dr. Larry Bates for the first time today. Needless to say, his thesis about the Economic nd Political Crises is coming to pass. I read through these comments starting way back in 2007 when all this seemed impossible. Wonder what we will be saying a year from now? Searching for the truth is always challenging. I am looking for insights on the economic situation for a different perspective – all we hear is the government, the news commentators and the religious people who want to "put their head in the sand". There is always another way. Find the truth, sometimes it is objective truth, and then act on it.
No need to dismiss this guy because of his religious views – we all have them, and that is not the point here. The potential downfall of america as we have known it is the point. It is fair to say there is a "whole lot of shaking going on". I wish you all the best in these difficult times.
What an interesting read…couldn't finish it all, but, I learned a lot. This site has many who are "passionate" about their views, and, many who have written "thougtfully". Like Monte said, "Searching for the truth is always challenging." No one can dispute we are in the midst of g-l-o-b-a-l economic distress. Each of us will do what we think is best for us and our families. Thank you to all, like Michelle (and others), who defend Biblical truth and our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Have a blessed Christmas celebration…the reason for the season is Christ! God speed to everyone.
Lisa writes, "…the reason for the season is Christ!"
Actually, Lisa, the "reason for the season" is the winter solstice. Long before Christianity existed, pagans were celebrating the winter solstice…with decorations that included holly, mistletoe and evergreen trees. Christians merely adopted these traditions and co-opted them into their beliefs. The truth is that nobody knows what time of year Jesus was born, if he ever existed.
Larry Bates has had his own radio program for many years. The purpose has always been to sell gold and silver. As if gold and silver will keep you from going broke in the end times. I am not sure of the passage, but God says in that day their gold and silver will be worthless (paraphrased).
Larry Bates has some insight yes. But he is out to make a dollar through fear. No matter how much money you have in the end times, it will not help. Because people will have to sell their soul to buy food. No matter what you have it will be worthless. The mark will be the sign of the Muslim. Which is from Satan.
I guarantee you have not read the Bible. You only parrot the sayings of all the other ignorant people that refuse to realize we did not come from primordial mud. Any one with common sense can see that we are a created being. People don't want to accept that because they want to live as their own god. That is what happened to Adam and Eve.
I to use to follow the crowd, and said the same things about the Bible. But I had never really, honestly tried to read the Bible without having a preconceived mindset. Once I decided to be fair to God. He met me, and revealed His truth in the Bible. You can only understand the Bible if you have the Holy Spirit. And that can only happen when you give your life to Jesus. Until then you will never really read the Bible. Satan is reading it to you. Because of your evil hearts you do not understand.
hargis writes:—"You can only understand the Bible if you have the Holy Spirit. And that can only happen when you give your life to Jesus."
So you can only know what it is you've converted to if you're already converted?
They didn't believe Noah either. But then again I bet you don't believe in Noah. We are all like frogs in a slow boiling pot. Different people have different missions in life. Larry Bates has been in the worlds system so he has authority to speak of the worlds system and it's downfalls. People can't stand to be told what to do or how to act. . . . There is consequences to our choices and Larry Bates is just one voice out of a million telling you that we have made bad choices according to who we have let preside over us in the government. The government was formed for the people by the people and we got lazy and let them take over. Now that someone points out their downfall and wants us to take back our rights some of you have already started to boil and don't even mind the heat. Just wait it's going to get hotter. By the time you realize that your being boiled to death (financially, spiritually, mentally) it will be to late. . . . It doesn't matter what anyone believes except the truth. If I were you I would be trying my hardest to seek out the truth instead of critisizing those around you. We're all in this together. We will need one another when the yellow buses don't come to pick us up. (New Orleans) Because government can't save anyone. It's sinking too. Look for a new redeemer.
Actually, Dr Bates states Christians are CALLED to be salt and light. Salt is used as a seasoning, preservative (as most know it has been used this way throughout time). If there is a preservative aspect in this passage then the world will probably get pretty scary if all the Christians are gone. No more preservative, hum…. I've seen time and again, it being the evangelical vote trying to preserve what has made our country so great. You've all been witnesses to the "New America" with the breakdown of the family, (divorce, young unmarried pregnancies) moms out in the work place( affairs causing divorce, latch key kids) materialism(kids w/ no work ethic, lazy, rebellious, entitlement attitudes) I could type on for hours!! The removal of God and the lack of the sharing of the love He has for his children has NOT done our nation any good. TRUE Christians are and have been trying to shed LIGHT on this for quite a while now, but man seems to love their sins too much to care about or even see all the negative consequences. Even when the will of the Christian or heck, just the people wins out through the nations legal voting process, if the courts don't like it they just over turn it. I've too wondered about the doom & gloom Christian speakers who have all kinds of items to sell in order to profit from iwhat they are teaching. They stand to gain financially from informing all of us for the better. They will have to answer to God for the intents of their hearts. But, all of you to will have to answer to God for the condition of your hearts. Did you seek truth? Did you look and recognize the amazing Creator in the creation around you? Did you at least ONCE in your lives pray and tell God "if you are real will you show Yourself to me in some real tangible way that I will recognize?" And when He does, (and I guarantee He will, He loves us so much) will you have asked Him to guide you into His truth? You all stand the same judgement as Dr Bates. Just because someone might be behaving in an unattractive way under the facade of God, why do you want to go after Christianity? Men behave deceitfully all the time and people call it entertainment!!! See a man claiming to act on behalf of the Bible and have an appearance of evil and men can't wait to attack him, God, the Bible and Christainity in full force. You are funny people…by the way it really doesn't matter if you don't believe the Bible is the inerreant word of God, or if you don't believe the Muslim religion is going to bring us more harm, or if you think Barrak Hussien Obama is a great man, or if you think God made man homomsexual, or any of the other things the Bible says is sin and will harm man are really "freedom", or any of the other things that are happening in our nation to our detrement are a great way to move forward to. The truth is the truth no matter what man says and in the end… THE TRUTH WINS!! Yes there really is truth. Maybe we should go back and train our children in this. Just wait… one day you too will get to see. Death is 100% NO ONE ESCAPES IT… SHOULD SCARE SOME OF YOU!!!
I was trying to find out who Larry Bates is and found this post. I really appreciate the balanced kind pursuit of truth that sets the tone. I am also amazed at how many of the posts on this site seem to have a life of their own that goes on and on. I feel compelled to put in my two cents and hope I can add some light to the discussion on Christianity that will benefit all.
I am a Christian; a follower of Jesus Christ. From the depths of my heart I am determined to know him, love him and obey him in all matters of life and death. Regardless of how miserably or frequently I fail, I will make amends and rise to the task again.
My parents were Christians, and my father as a member of Campus Crusade for Christ witnessed to me as a 5 year old child. I prayed as earnestly for God to save me from hell because I had sinned against him and Jesus had died for my sins. As I grew, I had many forays into evil followed frequently by tearful repentance. Eventually the tears stopped and I entered vehemently upon what I call my "dark and wayward Youth." In those dark days I once told another Campus Crusader who came to my dorm room to "share Christ" to leave me alone. I knew it was real and it worked for my Father and Mother, but not for me. The spring before the summer I was going to turn 25 years old, I found myself in a dark corner of life with little prospect of recovery, and probably a short life span given my acquired life style and companions. For instance, one had acquired three incurable diseases and lay dying in a hospital and another’s car was blown up in the parking lot by adversaries. I found myself wondering why Christianity had been so real for my parents but not for me? By this time of my life, I had seriously squandered all the advantages of life that had come my way and rebelled profusely against church and Christians… the bunch of hypocrites! But that spring, I realized there had also always been a sincere, loving, and kind group of followers of Christ such as my Father and Mother among others. I realized I was wrong, really wrong. My sin became really sinful. Sinners born in sin, living all their lives in sin surrounded by sin, spend their lives fabricating explanations of how harmless and innocent is sin. But one sin ruptures the perfect fabric of righteousness and mars the beauty of holiness such that the only remedy for the preservation of right is the eradication of what is evil. It is the office and work of the Holy Spirit to shine the light of truth upon the sins of men and their wages. I deserved hell for my willful rebellion against God's goodness, such hateful arrogance and defiance of such love and generosity. There was no hope in me of redemption, but I knew I should stop doing wrong. I determined that as best I could for my remaining days I would obey God's law, until I died and God put me in hell which I had so eagerly and earnestly earned. In those moments I found myself desiring that God would show me, just for a moment, the truth of the reality of God himself. Remove the blindness for a few seconds, open the door just a crack, and let me see the God of eternity in his glory, and then close it and put me in hell where I belonged. No great epiphany occurred; no lightning, no visions. However, I arose and set about to do as I had vowed. I knew I needed to read the Bible to freshen up on what I needed to do, so I picked a small book, the epistle of James, and started stopping my evil ways, making amends with those I had offended, and going back to church. Mysteriously and curiously, I found that I now enjoyed doing what the Bible said. I found great desire to find out what the Bible required, and do it. I thought this would be as temporary as the other reformations I had experienced in earlier life, but found a certain peace and determined to enjoy it until I fell again into sin or died. I was pleasantly confused. I was enjoying being an obedient Christian, but I had not asked God to save me, nor had I made any profuse tearful repentance as in former years. Yet I continued to enjoy forsaking the ways of the world and pursuing the truth of Jesus Christ. At first I did not share this with anyone because I feared it might be temporary as before and I did not want to shame the gospel of Christ again. I finally started telling people "that God had given me a new stability as a Christian I had never known before." God was speaking to me through his word and my prayers seemed to be heard and answered.
Eventually I understood from reading the book of Hebrews, and the preaching of the Psalms, that I had been saved by the Grace of God. When I was five, I was trying to save myself from trouble. When I was 25, I just wanted to see Him. I just wanted to know God, if only for a few moments.
In that moment, God knew me in a way I have not been able to explain, but I have lived and enjoyed for these thirty years and will for all eternity. I thought something was different when I arose that night, I have been discovering how great that difference is ever since. God has given me a wonderful life, wife and children, education and prosperity. Nearly fifteen years ago, I was ordained and served as a elder/pastor for ten years.
About three years ago, in the heat of some things, I felt that the best choice was to resign my eldership and leave that church. I joined another very small church. I realized a very shocking thing about my relationship with Christ and my practice of Christianity. I have been a very conservative and Bible-believing Christian, but I found that I had become the very hypocrite that I despised as a youth. Though I was not living a perfect life, I was not living a double life as many think of hypocrisy today. My hypocrisy was that of Matthew 7. I was Biblical in belief, but I was not Christ-like in practice! As the Pharisees had become so “Biblically correct” and full of themselves they had no time for sinners or for God; so I had become very self-righteous and condemning of others. If our lives were glasses of water, I was very good at seeing the half-empty portion of another person's glass, but could only see the full portion of my glass. While I have not forsaken one whit of the truth of the Bible, I have seriously modified my approach to individuals and the truth. God has always seen my empty portion, and yet he has been faithful and compassionate to me all these years. Should I not do the same with others? How can I put water in other people’s glasses? How can I bless their lives as God has blessed mine? I somewhat shocked the Adult Bible Study class of the church I left when I told them that "Christ didn't die for the truth, he died for sinners. “ If I use the truth in a brutal manner and alienate sinners from Christ, then I am ‘truthfully’ contrary to the purpose of the cross. While I was a 'truthful' Christian, I was not a loving and compassionate Christian. May God have mercy upon me and those I affected. The objective is not just to declare the truth, but to see souls embrace the truth and be saved from their sins.
My great dilemma is that telling the truth alone does not change the heart of men. God's Grace must be given. The Father must draw them. The Spirit of God must open their hearts, quicken the heart and soul of a man. Contemporary Christianity, in both its liberal and conservative forms is desperately lacking the presence and the power of the Spirit of God. I pray for the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Finding God is not an argument of the intellect. Though the rational debate of the existence of God might be won by the theologian, spiritual life is not a scientific pursuit. Sin is not a problem of the mind, but of the heart. It is out of the heart that evil proceeds. Though with the mind, we learn of God from His Word, the Holy Spirit works in the innermost secret recesses of the heart and finding God is a search in the solitude of one’s own heart. When you search for God with all your heart, then you find him.
The God who simply said "Let there be light" and there was light has enough power to make bumps grow on our head when we became Christians. This would plainly solve the dilemma of who is saved and who is not. We would not tell another person, “He got saved,” we probably would say “He has a bump, Hallelujah!” I myself had been something a professing Christian without really being a Christian. A bump would have done me good. But that is not how God has done it. You can literally have two individuals that by all external evidence are doing the same thing, living the same way, and yet one is saved and one is not. Why is that?
I cannot really answer for God on this question I have posed, but I will give my thinking. I think it is because God is love. I believe God loves his children personally and privately. As sin is a private thing of the heart, so knowing God is a private thing of the heart. It is not in great theatrical manifestations that the love of God is known in the heart. It is in the quite silence and solitude of one’s own heart and thoughts that the reality of God is known and felt. It is that presence and peace in the heart that causes us to prevail in great trials, even a trial of death! When I have messed up, I eventually realize that my heart is lonely and cold. Where is my God? O GOD!! Where are you and what have I done? I seclude and humble myself. I read the Bible and pray. I wait on Him until he answers. He shows me my fault, I see it in His Word, I repent and fellowship is restored.
One day I will see Him face to face. I will know him as He has known me. I will, as we all will, give an account for every thought, word, and deed of this life. I will cast myself at his feet. My faith will be sight. I will be in the presence of the one I love, and I will no longer have a problem being obedient.
In my professional life, I am an engineer and work with science and numbers hour after hour. But many will not grant this post of my personal experience and belief the benefit of being scientific. So I knew at the beginning, and I am grateful for those that have read it to this point. With the mind, we perceive God and his truth. We comprehend and know the truth. But it is with the heart we know him and love him. Who can scientifically show their heart and love?
It is exceedingly ironic that the one who created the eye and ear cannot be seen or heard by them. The one who created the mind cannot be comprehended by it. Indeed, the one who created the heart is not loved by it unless the Spirit of God quickens the truth to that person. I pray someone will be quickened. May God know you as He has known me.
As for Larry Bates, I suspect he has a heart like mine; quickened but not perfect; right on some things; wrong on others. As for his positions, I share your concern over the economy. I think the current economic developments may dwarf all the events of the twentieth century. I suspect a global struggle is afoot in the shadows of the government and financial corridors of the world. However, my hope is in the Lord God Almighty that made heaven and earth. I have been praying for the whole world, my generation, to have their hearts touched by the living word. I am asking my God for souls to be saved on a scale that can only be measured by His own great power and love for mankind as demonstrated by the death and resurrection of His Own Son for sinners. This may be the beginning of the best of times and of the worst of times.