Why gay people simply must go to hell

June 7, 2006 | By | 60 Replies More

A few years ago I had an extended conversation about gay people with an evangelical man in his mid-50s.  I thought that this conversation might be illuminating, in that this fellow is a decent fellow in many ways.  He would make a nice neighbor, for instance.  He works hard, pays his taxes, makes contributions to poor people, loves his children and abhors bigotry, at least when it involves blatant discrimination of African-Americans. On the other hand, he is deeply troubled with the “problem” of gays.  For purposes of this post, I will refer to him as “Donald.”

Here’s how the conversation went:

Do gays choose to be gay?  Donald is really perturbed that some people choose to engage in homosexual sex as a matter of sexual variety or perverted fun.  On the other hand, he does acknowledge that there are numerous gay people who have not chosen to be gay.  They were born or raised in such a way that they turned out “differently.”  Donald admits that they had no choice. They have innocently found themselves attracted to members of the same sex.  I asked Donald whether his God created them this way, and he shrugged.

Donald admits that many heterosexuals engage in sex that he considers degenerate or immoral.  This would include oral sex, anal sex or S&M for example.  Donald reluctantly admits that these people should nonetheless be allowed to marry.  People who do not want to have children or who physically can’t have children should also be allowed to marry.  According to Donald, the state government should grant marriage licenses even to those who are not truly in love with each other, although he doesn’t personally approve of this practice.

Gay people should fight their sexual urges, according to Donald.  They should be celibate for their entire lives.  Gay people who fall in love with other gay people should not ever express that love physically.  Donald claims that human beings do not need to have sex.  People can live “meaningful” lives without it, even if they feel strong urges to have sex.  

I mentioned my belief: that sex is as essential as food for most people; sex is a central part of being a human being. Donald sees sex as something optional, such as eating a particular food (e.g. ice cream) or going to the beach. I see living together publicly as a bonded couple (with the option of raising a family together) as a fundamental human right.  Donald would generally agree, except that gay people do not have this right.  Why not?  Because the Bible says it’s so.

Simply being gay is not something that will cause a person to go to hell, according to Donald.  If a gay person actually has homosexual sex, however, this is a moral and degenerate act.  Having homosexual sex is a serious sin which you will cause one to be sent to hell for eternal torture. God has required this.  Why?  It’s not for Donald to question his God.

Donald believes that having homosexual sex is “unnatural.”  He bluntly stated that animals do not have homosexual sex.  He was not interested in knowing about bonobos, who commonly engage in homosexual sex as a form of community bonding.  He was not interested in knowing that many other species of animals engage in homosexual sex (450 species have been shown to have clear homosexual behaviors).  See also here

In other words, Donald claims that homosexual sex is “unnatural,” but he does not want to talk about hundreds of species of animals engaging in homosexual sex in the wild.  He won’t go so far as to call gay animal sex “unnatural,” but doesn’t find zoological field work to be relevant.  He doesn’t like talking about human beings as though they are animals.  As to that thorny concept of what is “natural,” Donald would consider things such as line-dancing, SUVs, cosmetics and large crucifixes to be sufficiently natural.  But one thing that is NOT natural is adult gay people who consensually, privately and intimately express their affection for each other.

I asked Donald whether it seemed fair to him that his religion, if it got a hold of the reigns of government, would prohibit gay people from engaging in the single solitary form of sexual intimacy that interested them, and prohibited this for their entire lifetimes.  He shrugged and mentioned that the Bible forbids this.  For Donald, it is not a matter of fairness.

I don’t know where any of this leads.  Perhaps it doesn’t get to the heart of the issue at all.  Perhaps the real problem is something rarely discussed.  Perhaps it’s simply a matter that many people are uncomfortable with their animal bodies, including organs such as the penis . . . Oh, no.  I uttered that word.  I’m so very sorry.  I don’t really know how to use a computer that well . . . I tried applying White-Out to the computer monitor, but I see that that word is still there.  Well, please pretend that I didn’t say that word!

Donald said one other thing that I found curious.  He insisted that marriage is a religious institution.  His argument is thus straightforward: since marriage is a matter of religion and the Bible prohibits homosexual acts, then gays should not be able to get married.  I find this argument strange in that marriage is actually two things: yes, it is a matter of tradition, including religious tradition.  On the other hand, marriage is a civil institution.  As marriage is currently established, it need not be a matter of religion at all.  People commonly go before judges and get married without uttering a single word about religion. When I bring this up to people like Donald, he shrugs. He makes it clear that if people like him could ever take hold of our government, there would be no such thing as a purely civil marriage ceremony.

In sum, I found it curious that my differences with Donald were not really matters of clashing facts.  Rather, our differences were focused at places where Donald was unable or unwilling to freely consider various facts.

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Category: Culture, Religion, Sex

About the Author ()

Erich Vieth is an attorney focusing on consumer law litigation and appellate practice. He is also a working musician and a writer, having founded Dangerous Intersection in 2006. Erich lives in the Shaw Neighborhood of St. Louis, Missouri, where he lives half-time with his two extraordinary daughters.

Comments (60)

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  1. grumpypilgrim says:

    Richard writes: "The first objection any logical person, or scientist for that matter, should make is this is that by following the idea that homosexual acts are completely natural, things like parental killing and eating of offspring, cannibalism, devouring mates, abandoning offspring, stealing possessions, sustaining large harems with aggressive male dominance etc, should also be in accordance to animal nature…Are such tendencies that I touched on therefore in accordance to human nature as well?"

    To answer Richard's rhetorical question: yes, they are. Many, if not all, of the behaviors that Richard mentions have been seen in modern humans. However, there is a fundamental difference between sociopathic behaviors such as murder, cannibalism, stealing, etc., and a behavior such as homosexuality: the former do not occur between mutually consenting adults. Humans, like other social animals, have an inherent sense of fairness, so we reject brutal, nonconsentual behaviors, because they disrupt the peace and unity of the tribe. Accordingly, even though murder, rape, etc., might be "in accordance to human nature" — i.e., a natural result of our brutal ancestry — these behaviors are not "common and acceptable human acts," because our cultural evolution has made them incompatible with contemporary social life.

  2. Erich Vieth says:

    Is being gay "natural"?

    The animal kingdom is crawling with kink: threesomes, sadomasochism, spontaneous sex changes, and coital decapitation, for starters. There are also male ducks with corkscrew-shaped penises and sea creatures that shoot acidic semen leaving their partner pregnant and covered in burns. Nature even has its own date rape drug: the Great Barrier Reef's yellow slug delivers a sedative to its desired mate with a quick penile stab.

    It's all in the name of successfully passing along genes — much like these creatures' human counterparts.

    From "Hard Drive," by Tracy Clark-Flory http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2008/06/13/score

  3. steve says:

    Dogs eat each others poop too. The "animals do it, therefore it must be natural" argument is a dumb as it gets. Humans have a more developed cerebral cortex than the rest of the animal kingdom. They are instinctive, we have reason. Therefore the comparison is extremely lowforehead.

    Some species eat their young, Black widows eat their lovers after sex. say na more.

  4. GaysgotoHell says:

    Marriage was instituted by God, and God says gays go to hell. End of story. Get over it.

  5. Erich Vieth says:

    "Gaysgotohell" is proof that I wasn't arguing against straw men.

    • Alex says:

      Trying to have a decent conversation with a person who hasn’t an open mind is like trying to play chess with a pidgeon! You are not going to win because there is no communication! Some people don’t accept the fact that other people may have different opinions than themselves. I gave up trying to have a conversation with that kind of people years ago! It is sad actually, it is all a matter of education!

  6. Actually, nowhere does the Bible say gays will go to hell. It only says we have to kill them. But god is love. How does that work?

  7. L.E. says:

    Sorry all, but the Bible DOES say that homosexuals will go to Hell… if they dont change their ways and turn away from their sins. Now that does not leave out liars, murders, adulterers ect…. but yes gays will go to Hell just like anyone else who does not confess with their mouths and believe with their hearts. God is a God of love and grace but He is also a JUST God. If you love God, and confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of Man… then you are saved. However, people tend to leave out the characteristics of a person who loves another. If you love God and you seek to please Him so that you may spend eternity with Him then you will aim to walk in His will and not do things that displease God. To say "I love God, I am saved yet I am a liar… or an adulterer… or I live a homosexual lifestyle and I choose not to change, not to turn away from my sins and repent… then Im sorry but you will not inherit the Kingdom of God and until you change and turn away from your sins you are facing an eternity in Hell. God does not send people to hell folks… people send themselves to Hell by diliberately refusing to walk in God's will and in His likeness… resulting in a subconcious submission to your personal desires OVER God's desires.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10

    9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    When God speaks of His grace… I doubt He means that you can live as you please and He will grant you grace and a one way ticket to Heaven. God's grace allows us to sin and go to Him for forgiveness. God's grace got us His son and God's grace permits us an opportunity even though we all fall short of His glory…but please do not be deceived. God's grace is not to be used as insurance but as something that got us this far. In addition gay people are not created or born that way…. they are people who were and are spiritually weakened giving an access by homosexual spirits to enter and consume. A homosexual person can be delivered and set free if they first confess and really desire in their hearts to be relieved of this lifestyle. For those who know it is wrong and continue to practice, Hell is a reality for you. So as I said earlier… God is love so He doesnt hate the person, He hates the sin. He doesnt send people to eternal punishment, we send ourselves through free will. AND God did not create gay people….. and that goes back to free will. Science will be the death of the human race. Peace and blessings people!

    • Alex says:

      Im sorry, but in the Corinthians 6:9-10 I dind’t read any part refering to homosexual sex as a sin! It only speaks of Homosexual offenders, who are the same as sexual offenders, it doesn’t say anything about concensual homosexual sex, you should find another source to validate your opinions. Another thing I would like to ask you, you are aware that, as the article says, many homosexual actions are being observed in nature? Animals have instincts they do not choose to participate in homosexual sex, it is in their nature in the same way it is in some humans! And another thing, you are saying that all the humans that have homosexual urges are being possesed by homosexual spirits which means that you believe that the spirits possess the animals too. Finaly if god does not make mistakes how are there so many homosexual humans and animals in this world? The answer is simple, it is Gods decision to create homosexual beings, thus you argument is invalid!

  8. Okay, L.E., I was trying to give reasonable doubt. But.

    Firstly, Paul wrote that drivel. Secondly, in Romans, he exhorted people not to judge each other. Thirdly, you can't have it both ways—a parent who loves you does not condemn you to eternal hellfire. These two aspects of your god are incompatible with each other, but you rely on the words of a man (Paul) to justify yourself in your intolerance and bigotry (something that same man, Paul, warned against). You don't like homosexuality, so isn't it convenient that someone you claim was speaking for your god condemned it? What would you do if you were gay and knew it was no fault of your own, just the way you are, in the same way that a heterosexual is?

    But this is silly. It's been demonstrated here and elsewhere many times that we simply don't live according to Biblical principles, not because we're bad or evil or stupid, but because we actually know better and can do better.

    If you like Leviticus so much, move to Somalia. I understand they're still stoning people for inappropriate use of their own bodies.

  9. Mindy Carney says:

    ARGH! LE, really. Nothing makes me angrier than this kind of holier-than-thou spouting. You know nothing about homosexuality, or you would just shut right up. When I read your bible quote, I don't see that all gay people are doomed to hell. I only see that "homosexual offenders" are doomed to hell. That could mean a variety of things – including people who offend homosexuality by being promiscuous, for instance. And why, pray tell, are male prostitutes doomed to hell, but not female? That wouldn't be because back in the day, it was OK for MEN to frequent prostitutes but not WOMEN?? I realize they'd have to be unmarried men, of course, lest they become adulterers, but apparently female prostitutes were exempt from hell. Interesting. Since "sexually immoral" is not defined specifically, and "homosexual offenders" is not defined specifically, I see lots and lots of wiggle room here.

    Which is exactly how the bible is used – wiggle til you find a verse that fits. Not to mention the whole "it was written by Paul" issue previously demonstrated by Mark. Oy.

    Get off your high horse, LE, and stop judging, because that is condemnable, too, and God knows you don't want to wind up in hell with all those gay guys . . . or, perhaps, do you?

    • stephen says:

      It would be a cold thing not to tell people what we have seen
      God reveal to us. If i walk by your house and see it on fire and think you might be inside, If I do not tell you, that would mean I don’t care about you at all. GOd has revealed himself to me in supernatural ways numerous times. Jesus has shown himself real to me and my family. I would have been swallowed up in a homosexual, transvestite lifestyle if God did not reveal the truth and help me. If a person, man or woman lives in a homosexual life and does not surrender to the lordship of Jesus Christ and repent they will be consigned to the eternal Hell as God has clearly revealed in his word. On that terrifing day of judgement before his throne His law will be clearly seen, all of Satans lies will not be present and all the sins of persons who have not surrendered their life to Jesus will be replayed. The great news is that 2000 years ago the son of God Jesus of nazareth was born thru the virgin mary. God was revealed thru his life, He was crucified, Died, was placed in a tomb and 3 days later rose from the Dead. He took all of the sins of those who will recieve him on his own body so that heaven can be their future and not Hell. how many today are in hades in the lower regions of the earth wishing they had obeyed Jesus but will never get out of that punishment. THe bible states “the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom” Whoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved.” “there is no other name given among men except the name of Jesus by which men must be saved” “if you confess with your mouth Jesus Christ is lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead you will be saved.” Pray that God will show you if Jesus is the son of God and if the bible is true. This is the most important issue of your entire life. Don’t wait the bible states tommorrow is not promised. Let the new life of God become yours and eternal life. open the bible “genesis thru revelation” begin to read it and ask GOd to show you the truth!!

  10. Niklaus Pfirsig says:

    I've noticed that many fundies are quick to claim the bible defines marriage as between a man and a woman, while absolutely ignoring the fact that in all cultures that practice marriage, it is actually a legal merging of families.

    I recently read "Leap of Faith: Memoirs of an Unexpected Life" by Lisa Halaby (A.K.A. Queen Noor of Jordan). In the book she describes her wedding to King Hussein as being like a business meeting and that she was not even required to be present.

    It appears that much of the wedding ritual we know has been melded in to tradition from various pagan fertility rites.

    There are cultures that permit the marriage of two women, if one is widowed with children and the other cannot have children.

    Through the bible is mention of wives and concubines, with the implication that a wife was acquired through marriage between families and a concubine was purchased.

  11. Levi Bloomberg says:

    If homosexuality is a choice then heterosexually is a choice because if humans have the ability to choose which sex to be attracted to we are all asexual.

    Therefore if homosexuality is unnatural so is heterosexuality, therefore a god is of no use. If a god is of no use then there must be no god and if there is no god then we evolved from one celled animals. But if there is a god and he created heterosexuals, then they can not possibly have the ability to be attracted to their own sex unless it is a choice and if it is a choice then it is choice to be a heterosexual as well.

    • Alex says:

      Your argument is the best I have ever read or heard about that subject, of homosexuality being a choice or not! If I may I will use this argument every time I am discussing this matter! 🙂

  12. Levi Bloomberg says:

    (quote by L.E.):

    Sorry all, but the Bible DOES say that homosexuals will go to Hell… if they dont change their ways and turn away from their sins. Now that does not leave out liars, murders, adulterers ect…. but yes gays will go to Hell just like anyone else who does not confess with their mouths and believe with their hearts. God is a God of love and grace but He is also a JUST God. If you love God, and confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is the Son of Man… then you are saved. However, people tend to leave out the characteristics of a person who loves another. If you love God and you seek to please Him so that you may spend eternity with Him then you will aim to walk in His will and not do things that displease God. To say “I love God, I am saved yet I am a liar… or an adulterer… or I live a homosexual lifestyle and I choose not to change, not to turn away from my sins and repent… then Im sorry but you will not inherit the Kingdom of God and until you change and turn away from your sins you are facing an eternity in Hell. God does not send people to hell folks… people send themselves to Hell by diliberately refusing to walk in God’s will and in His likeness… resulting in a subconcious submission to your personal desires OVER God’s desires.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10

    9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    The word Homosexual did not come in to being until 1869 by a German scientist. Therefore if the bible uses the word homosexual the bible in not true, but a false book of fiction. And anyone believing fiction is true has a mental defect. If the bible uses the word homosexual then it was written after 1869 and therefore Jesus had to have been born some where in either the seventeenth or eighteenth and if that is true, then why wasn't Jesus' birth mentioned in American history? Something just don't make sense here and I am inclined to think L.E. has made all of this up and is a liar.

  13. Levi,

    A for effort, but…

    The Bible does not say "homosexuality." What it says is:

    Leviticus 20:13 "The man who lies with a man in the same way as with a woman: they have done a hateful thing together; they must die…"

    (Also see Leviticus 18: 22.)

    But it says nothing about them going to Hell. We must wait for Paul to, rather euphemistically, suggest that—"they will not inherit the Kingdom of God."

    But the term homosexual was not used.

    If we are to counter the idiocy of those who hold the Bible as the inerrant word of a being with the power to actually send dead people somewhere where they, somehow still able to sense and feel although dead, will suffer eternal torment, we do have to be careful to get OUR facts right.

  14. p.s.

    It's quite likely that the Hebrews who wrote those admonishions simply did not possess a concept of "Homosexual." The idea that a proclivity was inborn and a natural part of one's makeup doesn't seem to enter into their calculus. People were all the same—good or bad, as their whims took them, and "lying with a man as with a woman" would indicate someone who had, for whatever reason, decided to do something wicked. Just as with every other act that brought a death sentence in the Levitical list of no-nos.

  15. Dan Klarmann says:

    But "as with a woman" probably means to treat your fellow man-lover as petty property, as you would a woman or donkey. Shameful.

  16. Levi Bloomberg says:

    The bible we have is not the true bible as the true bible that had been in the Greek language was translated wrong as its very hard to translate one language to the other and come out right. What the verse actually meant was to lie in the bed of a woman having her period. Most of the so-called-verses-in-the-bible condemning gays does not condemn them at all as it has nothing to do with homosexuality, but either rape, a woman's period or prostitution. But so-called-straights have twisted the bible to suit their own little agenda and spread lies to the ignorant as the false prophets the bible warns us about.

  17. Levi Bloomberg says:

    Here is what I said: The word Homosexual did not come in to being until 1869 by a German scientist. Therefore if the bible uses the word homosexual the bible in not true, but a false book of fiction. And anyone believing fiction is true has a mental defect. If the bible uses the word homosexual then it was written after 1869 and therefore Jesus had to have been born some where in either the seventeenth or eighteenth and if that is true, then why wasn’t Jesus’ birth mentioned in American history? Something just don’t make sense here and I am inclined to think L.E. has made all of this up and is a liar.

    I was quoting the above message from another poster. The word homosexual was first coined in 1869 by a German scientist. Nowhere in the original Greek bible is there any mention of homosexuality and the verses seemingly to say that homosexuals are to be killed or go to hell was put there by the Catholic church on purpose in order to make sure everyone made babies in order they grow up and support the church. The bibles we process today are false bibles and can not be relied upon as the true bible.

  18. Karin Thornstun says:

    The bible was written by men not God and its nothing but a collection of fables, fairy tales and the prejudices that were spewed out of the mouths of drunken old men that had the education of a jackass. Anyone that would even believe in this garbage is either brainwashed or mentally retarded. Sure millions believe in it like millions more believe in the silly Koran, but then humans themselves are animals (primates) and its not expected that all animals are that intelligent to not believe in the bible. Strange how fast they gave up believing in Santa Claus but hung on the belief of God. I stopped believing in all that nonsense by the time I was in the sixth grade. The nonsense that a so-called-loving-god who created everything would condemn his own creation smacks of pure fantasy as if this god is nothing but an insane childish god who can't make up his mind. These men who wrote that rag would today be mental patients in a mental hospital or a bunch of burnt out drug addicts lying around on the floor of a crack house in some slum writing the same drool expecting people to believe it.

  19. Mio says:

    let people love who they want to love. NUFF. SAID>

  20. Daniel says:

    “Donald said one other thing that I found curious. He insisted that marriage is a religious institution.”

    In Roman Catholicism, marriage is a sacrament – a divine sign of God’s grace – between a man and a woman. On this basis (as a gay man) I can accept an argument against gay marriage. But only from Catholics. Protestants – who do not believe in sacraments, or in any case, that marriage is a sacrament, do not have the option of this argument or appealing to God when it comes to marriage. The problem with Protestants however, is that anyone can read the Bible anyway they wish and their religion is about as consistent as sea water.

  21. bob says:

    I have urges to steal when I want something and kill someone when they piss me off. I don’t. I’m able to fight off those urges and not commit sing. Homosexuals are the same way. If you are attracted to the same sex fight off the urge and reject it. Homosexuality is a choice. Nobody is born that way. You might have a hormone imbalance that causes attraction to the same sex but that can be fixed.

    • You need to do a little research. People are born that way, just as they are born heterosexual or transgendered. We are not cookies, we did not all come from the same mold, and nature produces all sorts of varieties.

      Besides, other than the fact that it bothers people like you, why should they try to resist it?

    • TheOne says:

      Try fixing a 40 year old gay man. you have to rebirth him with a new healthy biology with no hormone imbalances. and then his brain will form properly. otherwise, you have a woman brain, in a man body, who is doomed to hell anyway. Resisting those urges is not the same as resisting the urge to murder people. It is pain. It is like resisting your wife!

      You need to see a psychiatrist, or a priest… STAT!

    • TheOne says:

      This world is about one thing and only one thing:

      Each person using their brain and inner voice 100% of the time, listening to it wisely.

      Each person knows how they do that (aside from mentally ill)

      The rest, the religions, the colors, the science, the races, the nations and borders, are all setups to confuse and test you on that one basis.

      That is the best I can describe my sum of learnings in 3 decades of life on earth, having been through multiple religions and continents.

      Do you listen to a book whose origins could be questionable and murder people for whatever excuse the book condemns them with?

      Or

      Do you have an inner voice that warns against that and you follow that? A 6th sense perhaps? A gut voice maybe?

      Because in one case, you are a drone, not a free human being. You might as well not be free. For it is so easy to believe and say, 1. he is god, 2. this is god’s word, 3. I’ll have to do it regardless of anything and everything. that my friend, reaches its apex in suicide bombing.

      There you go, that’s one religion against the other, and the last religion in the world, islam, claims to be from the same god that sent jesus down here… yet, it professes and glorifies dying in martyrdom to kill the infidels and occupiers and imperialists or whatever “label” they can find to call bad… including gays

      I believe that in the end, you can only do the wrong or the right based on not listening or listening to your inner voice ONLY.

      For that is the God within the temple of each human being. The Conscious. The One.

  22. Richard says:

    This entire article is sick. Get a life.

  23. Niklaus Pfirsig says:

    While reading the new comments and rereading the old on theis thread, I had an epiphany.

    Over the years I’ve had friends and co-workers who were gay. I figured out rather early on that homosexuality is not a choice. Who would choose to live a life of persecution? Who would voluntarily choose to be the target of homophobic attacks, including physical assault and murder? I am certainly convinced that homosexuality is not a “lifestyle choice”.

    Google “homosexual mri” and you will get about 3 million results referring to brain research indicating that homosexuals’ brains develop structurally and functionally like the brains of the opposite hetero gender. In simple English, MRI scans show that gay men’s brains are like the brains of straight women, and gay women’s brains are like those of straight men.

    Homophobia, I think, is partly founded on the idea that homosexuality is a choice. I think the fear stems from many sources, one of them being the idea that if being gay is a choice, then it follows that a straight man or woman may be “turned” gay. I find it also conceivable that many homophobes hate themselves, fearing that they may be “closet gays” if they don’t strictly believe the compliance with stereotypical gender roles.

    But, that is not gist of my epiphany.

    The selfishness and greed being pushed on the American psyche in the name of individualism demands that everything must be owned and nothing may be shared. Religion has been twisted to steer the faithful toward compliance and unwavering submission. WE the people are being groomed to be the serfs of the future.

    For now, the strict authoritarianism of the old testament suits the return of aristocracy. Those who wish to destroy all semblance of democracy in the world, are creating fear, and then turning that fear into hate. Blinded by hate, misdirected against those that do us no harm, many of us are already the unknowing slaves of the corporate fascists.

    • Niklaus,

      Fascinating thesis. I think I agree. I’ll think on it.

      But an observation about the whole “choice” issue, at least with regards to religious homophobes. I think you do not go far enough. At base, they are raised to regard ALL of human nature as essentially evil, something which must be continually fought and resisted in order to lead an “exemplary” life. As such, homosexuality is the functional equivalent of any aspect of religiously unmodified living that embraces “natural” proclivities over the self-discipline of denial. Consequently, homophobia is just the most visible aspect of a doctrine of self-loathing that encompasses most of what we might reasonably regard as Being Human.

  24. jeremy says:

    all i know is i lived the first40 years of my life hiding my true self i knew when i was only 8 that i liked men. i was married 15 years trying to hide myself, all it did was make he crazy, i finally left my wife and told her i was gay and that she needed a real man to love her the way she deserves. my god loves all that he has made and when he makes anything it is done right. so since i was born gay it must have been what he wanted. those that say gays arent born that way , either is not gay themselves or they are gay and dont want to admit it…

    • Don says:

      I am a practicing Catholic, active in my Church and the community. I am celibate. As a younger man I was actively gay, then I just stopped having sex. I believe that God made me this way. But I also believe that like any person not within a marriage, I must be celibate. I suppose that I live in the gay subculture but I have wonderful friends, a wide variety of them. I try to be kind to everyone as much as I can. Additionally, I was messed with as a kid by a child molester shrink who put me away for nearly two years at age 16 and have chronic depression and have been on medication for years. I love God. God loves me. I do the best I can. I cannot fail to have compassion for those who are not well or who hurt, even if I don’t completely see things the way they do. My compassion has extended to people who in the past have hurt me. Will I go to hell? I hope not. Only God will judge. Some say only the good die young – but I am nearly 60, have lost at least 30 friends to HIV and question why I am still here. My Pastor said God is not finished with me yet. I have a hard time believing that gays would go to hell because of whom they love, unless they are prostitutes. Jesus Christ said nothing about homosexuality, to my knowledge. I hope gays don’t go to hell because some are very loving people who make tremendous contributions of time to their communities in positive ways. I hope we all make it to heaven. I would not wish anything less for anyone, and only God can judge.

  25. TheOne says:

    “God”, can only be one.
    “God”, is the only one who can judge everything and everyone.
    “You”, better think about your own actions, for God’s “Justice” and “judgment” is based on YOUR actions.
    “God” is almighty. He can do whatever he wishes, even change his own word or forgive one’s sins.
    “You”, better think of your own B-hind my children. For The One, cares about each of you separate from the others…

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