The problem of evil, as described circa 300 B.C.

In about 300 B.C., Epicurus eloquently summed up the problem of the existence of evil. It has come to be known as the Riddle of Epicurus or the Epicurean paradox. It was translated by David Hume in the Dialogues concerning Natural Religion:

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

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Erich Vieth

Erich Vieth is an attorney focusing on civil rights (including First Amendment), consumer law litigation and appellate practice. At this website often writes about censorship, corporate news media corruption and cognitive science. He is also a working musician, artist and a writer, having founded Dangerous Intersection in 2006. Erich lives in St. Louis, Missouri with his two daughters.

This Post Has 449 Comments

  1. Avatar of Jon
    Jon

    problem solved: theres no such thing as god and good and bad is relative to what we want

  2. Avatar of ggff
    ggff

    Atheist: winning since 300 B.C. 🙂

  3. Avatar of Cyborgwitch
    Cyborgwitch

    Well, actually there is no good or evil. Good and evil are purely subjective. What's good for you may not be so good for someone/something else and vice versa.If you disagree, then tell me what is pure good, and what are it's implications on an all-over scale (not forgetting even consequences for the smallest forms of life now and in the future)? And now the same for pure evil? Where are the boundaries?

    Are our morals universal?

  4. Avatar of dumdrum
    dumdrum

    Good and evil are opinions yet common knowledge that most gain in instinct. Cancer is created by humans more often than not. The fallout areas around oil refinery plants have proven to cause cancer over 5 times more often. Birth defects and sterility are extremly common within these areas as well. This is off subject but the more people that know that we as a species are killing one another faster and faster every waking day, the faster we can run the other way. Biofuels could help heal our planet as well as the life that is on it. We are Humans. We rule this planet that the sun has graced us with. Why worship something you can't even prove exists and give in to faith (False hope in obtaining a heppy afterlife so that you will, more often than not,live for a truly evil purpose) when we can worship what really has given us life. Our Earth is all we really have. With our knowledge and technology, we could survive. It is a shame that we created WMD's before we could reason on a global scale. Human greed has been used for bad in the past 7000 years more often than not and it has been/ will continue to be a spiral down until the straw meets the already cracked camels back.

    I will not reread this so I'm sorry for the spelling etc

  5. Avatar of dumdrum
    dumdrum

    Ohh…

    Explain how "god" created light before he created the only objects in existance that can create enough natural light to light a planet (Stars)

    It says this plain and simple in the Bible.

  6. Avatar of ShamB
    ShamB

    If you assume the reason we are here is to develop in our own way, then the puzzle becomes easily solvable; God does not interfere because that would compromise our free will and therefore prevent our development.

    Oh, and BTW I'm an atheist (i.e. there is one other possible solution to the puzzle, and I clearly prefer than one…).

  7. Avatar of Pete
    Pete

    Not all theists believe that God can do anything. Can God square a circle or make 2+2=5? I don't think so. As soon as some says Omnipotence I think relative to what? The whole God knows everything so everything will work out for good is equally naive. If God is omnipotent and omniscient then why write a library full of errors and misinformation?

  8. Avatar of Isaac
    Isaac

    According to the Bible, God knows and controls everything that was, everything that is, and everything that will be. You know, that whole "God's will" thing.

    If that's the case, then free will does NOT, in fact, exist, and as such, God is to blame for every war, every genocide, every case of cancer or AIDS or ebola.

    Basically, if God's real (and it's a very, very slim chance that he is), then he's either an incompetent or malevolent fuck.

  9. Avatar of kurt
    kurt

    I think God exists, I apologize.

  10. Avatar of Faith
    Faith

    evil doesn´t exist.. evil is a word created by humans to express the absence of good.. therefore God is good.. .and evil is just plainly.. the absence of God.. YOU MORONS

  11. Avatar of Ben
    Ben

    @Faith false. there can be an absence of good without evil being present…aka apathy. are people not donating money to japan evil because they aren't committing a good deed? no, evil requires something. hitler had that something and he was a very proud christian

  12. Avatar of George
    George

    and God is a concept created by men when many things were a mystery, things that the sciences are explaining more and more as time passes by

  13. Avatar of Garrett
    Garrett

    this was an ancient problem solved by saint augustine… look into it. thats why this problem isnt talked about anymore.

  14. Avatar of BeeJay
    BeeJay

    If you don't believe in God, then the problem of evil is not a real one for you. For believers, it IS a problem. It doesn't stop us from believing, it just stumps us as we recognize that maybe we're not supposed to know everything about God.

  15. Avatar of Really?
    Really?

    @faith, god is a word created by humans to express the absence of science.

  16. Avatar of Stumbler
    Stumbler

    we create evil. we have free will. why are humans so bad at accepting that there the ones who make mistakes? If we were in a world where nothing could go wrong then we would be controlled God wanted us to be free. Thats why theres evil.. some of us just learn to be good even with free will.. that what God wanted for people to be good even with freedom.

  17. Avatar of Melanie
    Melanie

    but everyone forgets there is a second work at play

  18. Avatar of Aly
    Aly

    @Faith. Your reasoning doesn't make sense. If evil is the absence of God then God is not omnipotent as he WOULD be everywhere. The definition of 'God' is flawed.

  19. Avatar of whit
    whit

    evil is just a word that humanity applies to just another aspect of human nature. God was just a word humanity applied to understand what they couldn't. they are unrelated, god has nothing to do with it, because he does not exist.

  20. Avatar of Josh
    Josh

    Fuck God, There is evil, there is good, thats NATURE. we need to find the balance between the two… Humans…we are a disease, we consume all. and destroy everything in our paths. we have single handedly reshaped the face of the earth forever. we murder just for the sake of killing. God.. fuck the idea of god.

  21. Avatar of Kenneth
    Kenneth

    @ ALY. The absence of good does't mean that God is not omnipotent(if he is benevolent) but that he is not ubiquitous.

  22. Avatar of Someone
    Someone

    Look, Evil and Good are based on morals. Good is Morally Correct and Evil is Morally Wrong. An evil being cannot exist relative to their morals; no thing would do what it personally believed to be wrong. However, here people talk about CHRISTIAN morals. The evil people are, in this context, nothing more than those who do not follow Christian moral structure, which means that they have their own differing morals. Thus we cannot say that someone is/was 'evil'. According to most people's morals, Hitler was an evil man. But, that only means he had different morals. Hitler believed that his actions were completely moral, and in fact quite noble. He is evil to us because his morals are different, just as the 'impure races' Hitler hated so much seemed evil to him. Thus, when Epicurus says "If He is able, but not willing Then He is malevolent," he means that, in this hypothetical situation, God would be a hypocrite. And when he says "If He is both able and willing Then whence cometh evil?" his question means "Why are there different morals?". In short, 'Good' is what agrees with you and 'Evil' is what disagrees. It is completely relative to your own morals, and we cannot assume anything to be good or evil.

  23. Avatar of Someone (last time,
    Someone (last time,

    TL;DR Semi-agnosticism. Haters gonna hate.

  24. Avatar of Someone (again)
    Someone (again)

    As to my earlier point, I was speaking of simply morals. Now I shall move on to religion. Now I recognize that a lot of my points may repeat the points of others. This is to help clarify. Well, onward we go.

    There are two sides to the world: what we would call reality (the universe, etc.) and then everything beyond reality. Science tries to measure reality, applying math and observed patterns in the physical world and compiling the results into facts. Religion tries to measure beyond that, into what we can't see or feel (life/death, soul, etc.). Religion is theory. This is not a criticism; by this I only mean that what religion measures cant be compiled into facts. We simply cannot gather enough information from our limited viewpoint in reality. This is why there are many beliefs and religions, but only one way to look at science.

    Here I see Epicurus's vital error. He is attempting to apply factual logic to something purely theoretical. Its as foolish as trying to measure faith in grams, or love in meters. It cant be done; our physical lives and what lays beyond them are entirely separate things. However, this is no jab at atheists believing that there cannot be a god because there is no evidence. Similarly, as I said before, I'm not bashing Christianity or any other religion.

    To be clear, let me sum this up in four words:

    Religion is an OPINION.

    First, just because you have seen, or even experienced, interactions with this world and your deity does NOT mean that your deity necessarily exists. There are those who disagree. Second, just because you believe that what others say is their god is really your god in another form, or is misinterpretation of coincidences, or is flat out wrong does NOT mean you are right. There are those who disagree. Third, just because you see no reason for your religion (or lack of) to be wrong does NOT make you right. There are still others who disagree.

    In the end, all it is is an opinion. Argue all you want, Epicurus; you'll only be right according to those with the same opinions. Everyone else 'knows' youre wrong.

  25. Avatar of Bobby
    Bobby

    A VERY INTERESTING CONVERSATION

    To all who still read this post, enjoy.

    hopefully thethinkingman, mike, mark, karl, and any other people who have contributed some useful information to this argument will indeed stumble upon this little tid-bit I've contributed.

    An Atheist Professor of Philosophy was speaking to his Class on the Problem Science has

    With GOD , the ALMIGHTY. He asked one of his New Christian Students to stand and . . .

    Professor : You are a Christian, aren't you, son ?

    Student : Yes, sir.

    Professor : So, you Believe in GOD ?

    Student : Absolutely, sir.

    Professor : Is GOD Good ?

    Student : Sure.

    Professor : Is GOD ALL – POWERFUL ?

    Student : Yes.

    Professor : My Brother died of Cancer even though he Prayed to GOD to Heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn't. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?

    (Student was silent )

    Professor : You can't answer, can you ? Let's start again, Young Fella.

    Is GOD Good?

    Student : Yes.

    Professor : Is Satan good ?

    Student : No.

    Professor : Where does Satan come from ?

    Student : From . . . GOD . . .

    Professor : That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this World?

    Student : Yes.

    Professor : Evil is everywhere, isn't it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?

    Student : Yes.

    Professor : So who created evil ?

    (Student did not answer)

    Professor : Is there Sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness?

    All these terrible things exist in the World, don't they?

    Student : Yes, sir.

    Professor : So, who Created them ?

    (Student had no answer)

    Professor : Science says you have 5 Senses you use to Identify and Observe the World around you. Tell me, son . . . Have you ever Seen GOD?

    Student : No, sir.

    Professor : Tell us if you have ever Heard your GOD?

    Student : No , sir.

    Professor : Have you ever Felt your GOD , Tasted your GOD , Smelt your GOD ? Have you ever had any Sensory Perception of GOD for that matter?

    Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

    Professor : Yet you still Believe in HIM?

    Student : Yes.

    Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

    Student : Nothing. I only have my Faith.

    Professor : Yes, Faith. And that is the Problem Science has.

    Student : Professor, is there such a thing as Heat?

    Professor : Yes.

    Student : And is there such a thing as Cold?

    Professor : Yes.

    Student : No, sir. There isn't..

    (The Lecture Theatre became very quiet with this turn of events )

    Student : Sir, you can have Lots of Heat, even More Heat, Superheat, Mega Heat, White Heat,

    a Little Heat or No Heat.

    But we don't have anything called Cold.

    We can hit 458 Degrees below Zero which is No Heat, but we can't go any further after that.

    There is no such thing as Cold.

    Cold is only a Word we use to describe the Absence of Heat.

    We cannot Measure Cold.

    Heat is Energy.

    Cold is Not the Opposite of Heat, sir, just the Absence of it.

    (There was Pin-Drop Silence in the Lecture Theatre )

    Student : What about Darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as Darkness?

    Professor : Yes. What is Night if there isn't Darkness?

    Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the Absence of Something

    You can have Low Light, Normal Light, Bright Light, Flashing Light . . . But if you have No Light constantly, you have nothing and its called Darkness, isn't it? In reality, Darkness isn't. If it is, were you would be able to make Darkness Darker, wouldn't you?

    Professor : So what is the point you are making, Young Man ?

    Student : Sir, my point is your Philosophical Premise is flawed.

    Professor : Flawed ? Can you explain how?

    Student : Sir, you are working on the Premise of Duality. You argue there is Life and then there is Death, a Good GOD and a Bad GOD. You are viewing the Concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can't even explain a Thought. It uses Electricity and Magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view Death as the Opposite of Life is to be ignorant of the fact that Death cannot exist as a Substantive Thing.

    Death is Not the Opposite of Life: just the Absence of it

    Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your Students that they evolved from a Monkey?

    Professor : If you are referring to the Natural Evolutionary Process, yes, of course, I do.

    Student : Have you ever observed Evolution with your own eyes, sir?

    (The Professor shook his head with a Smile, beginning to realize where the Argument was going )

    Student : Since no one has ever observed the Process of Evolution at work and Cannot even prove that this Process is an On-Going Endeavor,

    Are you not teaching your Opinion, sir?

    Are you not a Scientist but a Preacher?

    (The Class was in Uproar )

    Student : Is there anyone in the Class who has ever seen the Professor's Brain?

    (The Class broke out into Laughter )

    Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's Brain, Felt it, touched or Smelt it? . . .

    No one appears to have done so.

    So, according to the Established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that You have No Brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then Trust your Lectures, sir?

    (The Room was Silent. The Professor stared at the Student, his face unfathomable)

    Professor : I guess you'll have to take them on Faith, son.

    Student : That is it sir . . . Exactly !

    The Link between Man & GOD is FAITH.

    That is all that Keeps Things Alive and Moving.

    NB:

    I believe you have enjoyed the Conversation . . . and if so .. .

    You'll probably want your Friends / Colleagues to enjoy the same . . . won't you?

    Forward them to Increase their Knowledge . . . or FAITH.

    That student was Albert Einstein.

    1. Avatar of Erich Vieth
      Erich Vieth

      Bobby: At this website, we insist that you provide citations to credible sources if you want us to believe implausible seeming claims (e.g., that Albert Einstein was really involved in the above purported conversation). I see no such credible source for this purported exchange on the Internet, though many people claim (without any citation to a credible source) that Einstein was involved in such a conversation.

      Give me a credible source regarding the above, please, or I will conclude that you are being reckless with the facts.

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