While doing the research for my previous post, A Slaughterhouse of One’s Own: A community confronts Santeria, I came across several explanations of exactly how animal sacrifice works in this religion, physically and metaphorically speaking.
The animal is bound and its throat is cut. The carotid artery is sliced with a ceremonial knife and the blood of the animal is drained from its body in the belief that,
…the energy contained in blood of an animal sacrifice opens a channel of direct communication with the Orishas.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/santeri1.htm
(Orishas are the multitude of gods that represent various aspects of life, much as in the Hindu pantheon or the Christian saints.)
The question that first occurred to me when I read this was “Who figured this out?”
I mean, there is no Santeria “bible”, it’s an oral tradition. Someone somewhere in Africa got it in her head that the blood of animals somehow “speaks” to her God and she was persuasive enough to convince others that it was true. So persuasive in fact, that people are still doing it to this day just because a teacher tells them to, even though there is no “written word of God” to back her up.
The original priestess of Santeria must have been wishing really hard for something big and when she killed a goat her wish came true. She deduced that it was the killing that caused the good thing to happen and I can only assume she followed that up with more killing and more good luck.
The second thought that occurred to me was, “How do they know it still works?”
For that matter, how does anyone who prays know that their message is reaching God and that God will act on their request? In a recent scientific study it was proven that prayer is usless from a medical standpoint.
Distant prayer and the bedside use of music, imagery and touch (MIT therapy) did not have a significant effect upon the primary clinical outcome observed in patients undergoing certain heart procedures, researchers at Duke Clinical Research Institute (DCRI), Duke University Medical Center, the Durham Veterans Affairs Medical Center (VAMC) and seven other leading academic medical institutions across the U.S. have found.
“Prayers for the sick and healing-touch are among the most widely practiced healing traditions around the world,” said Mitchell Krucoff, MD, interventional cardiologist at Duke and lead author of the study. “As widespread as these practices are, few rigorous studies exist to explain any mechanism of action or reliable measures of safety or effectiveness. While many of us are fascinated culturally or philosophically with the mystery of healing and prayer, for the practice of medicine we need to understand these phenomena with data-driven insight.”
I’m sure this is old news for regular readers of DI, but I decided to conduct a personal (i.e. anecdotal, unscientific) experiment of my own. So that I couldn’t be accused of persecuting anyone’s religion, I decided to put my own family’s faith in the spotlight. (I was raised Roman Catholic.)
I thought back over the years to the many times that members of my family were in major medical distress and we prayed for help. Did it work? Let’s see…
Great Aunt Mary: Cancer.
Her sisters, my grandmother included, were avid churchgoers all their lives. They prayed for Mary for many months as she suffered with her disease.
Result: Aunt Mary died.
Cousin Jeremy: Because he was born with a heart defect Josh needed periodic surgeries to expand his chest cavity to accommodate the growing organ. At 12 years of age during one such operation his body became wracked with infection. Our family prayed for him.
Result: Jeremy died.
Baby Jake: My sister’s son became feverish and was diagnosed with meningitis. We were all asked to pray for him.
Result: Jake got better.
Lynne: My cousin’s wife was 37 years old with three small children when she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. We prayed like we’d never prayed before.
Result: Lynne died.
Rose: The 38 year old sister of a close friend discovered a tumor on her spine. She was a single mother of a small daughter. His family and my family both prayed for her.
Result: Rose died.
That’s 1 out of 5. Pretty lousy track record if you ask me.
What did we do wrong? Are we a bad family whose members deserve to die painful tragic deaths? As far as I can tell we are no better or worse than anyone else.
I wonder if the practitioners of Santeria fare better statistically than Catholics. Even the proverbial flip of the coin, 50/50, would be a big improvement! I’d like to know because if draining the blood from a screaming animal can increase my odds of getting what I want and save my family from untimely death…I’m joining!
Mike: If you hadn't prayed, you might have gone 0 for 6. You really do need a control group for this sort of analysis.
I just ran a little experiment. I put five pennies on the left side of my desk and five pennies on the right side. I then prayed the agnostic version of prayer: "Oh God, if there is a God, please make the pennies on the right turn into chocolate cupcakes." Not only do I have a control group, but I figured that this was straightforward–it's not like I'm asking for sprinkles on top or milk to go with the cupcakes.
I've waited ten minutes so far. Nothing yet. I think I'll wait a few more minutes . . .
I'm still waiting . . .
You can keep waiting…but I won't hold my breath. Don't you know that asking for cupcakes is frivolous and self-serving? God will never answer that kind of prayer!
Hey Mike,
I read this with interest. This is a very old question that has plagued man forever. So, you prayed for all of your relatives to live and they didn't, to prove prayer does not work? Possibly your looking at it all wrong. Did anything else happen besides these relatives dying? Specifically, were there any positive outcomes? I consider myself a Christian and fairly spiritual person. Here's how I interpret your results.
1.Great Aunt Mary: Cancer.
She no longer is suffering or in pain
2.Cousin Josh: Heart defect with periodic surgery required
He no longer is suffering or in pain
3.Baby Jake: meningitis
He no longer is suffering or in pain
4.Lynne: Ovarian cancer(nasty one…grandmother had this one)
She is no longer suffering or in pain
5.Rose: Tumor on her Spine
She is no longer suffering or in pain
Did your family and family members all unite or come together in prayer? What about the strengthened bond established between family members during this time?
Why do "bad things" happen to "good people?" I see this question asked quite a bit, and often times by people who are very sensitive to situtations they view as bad. A non Christian will view death as a bad thing. Life ceases to exist. Whereas a Christian does not fear death or necessarily associate death with a negative outcome.
That prayer does not work, yet is widely practiced, provides an example of selection bias: "successful" prayers are attributed to a powerful deity, while remaining prayers are conveniently forgotten. This topic is discussed further here:
http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=449.
Thanks LittleMack. I appreciate your attempt to comfort me. I too have noticed that in life there is no bad thing that happens that does not have some good in it and vice versa.
However, I find more comfort in believing in an abysmal lightless nothingness after we die than I do when I consider a God who would torture with sickness then kill beautiful young women and children in order to teach a family a lesson in closeness.
I don't like the way your God works. He's not nice. And I don't understand why anyone would want to honor such a being.
Amen brother, you are right on the money. Religion is actually about controlling people and taking their money. Preachers (not limited to christians since I am no fan of any religion) are worse than politicians.
Saw your comment on pro Muscle and came over to offer my support and opinion
For many people, religion challenges us with such a low bar. One of the main attractions to religion is that you can do just about anything and still be eligible for heaven.
Same issue for God, himself. According to believers, there is nothing that God could do (he's done many heinous things already, according to the OT) that would mean that He's no longer deserving of our love and worship.
That prayer is not efficacious makes you vulnerable prey to the teachings of Reverend Zero. See here for the Reverend's approach to life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDZyEgx-0fc
I think I'll add you to my skeptic web links
Glad to ave found your link on Pro Muscle
Wonderful post, Erich Vieth.
Loved Reverend Zero, if I was a joiner, I'd join his congregation. But I don't believe and don't see any reason to follow any body. As the once great Bob Dylan sang 'don't follow leaders, watch for parking meters' and "you don't need a weatherman to see which way the wind blows"
Thanks comradbillyboy. I appreciate your comments and support.
Erich: I have been posting links to my two DI blogs on a few of the bodybuilding forums that know me as the maker of RTB1 & 2 so you may be seeing traffic from unusual sources.
It's definitely off topic to post about religion on a BB board but some moderators are cooler than others and you can really get into some interesting conversations with people when you bring up a topic that they are not used to discussing.
I have found that, like the rest of the population, BB's opinions about God and religion run the gamut, but I have been also surprised to find that very often successful BBs fall into two camps, each with a perspective gained from building their bodies beyond the norm.
On the one hand you have the fiercly independant type. NO ONE is going to tell him/her what to do, least of all the church. This is someone whose physical transformation from weakling to muscleperson has also transformed their personality and opinions in a like manner.
They are extremely self-assured and ruggedly opinionated. They are usually Libertarian (although they may not know it) because of the severe legal restricions being put on steroids and their belief that we each should be responsible for what goes into our bodies and be willing to take the risks. They believe that their incredible discipline with diet and exercise separates them from the rest of humanity and they have little use and much disdain for the rules that "weaker" mortals live by.
The other kind of BB feels grateful to God for giving them the strength to pursue this very difficult sport. For them there is no other way to be successful at strengthening your body without the support of God. They feel that they are exalting God by perfecting the "temple" of the body that He has given us. Their relationship with the drugs that are necessary to do this is complex and guilt ridden. I know of one devoutly Christian BB who has scoured the bible in order to find a passage that will help him excuse his steroid use. I don't know if he's found one.
All BBs I have met feel that the sport has made their lives better and "saved" them in some way. Why one person will become more individualistic and another more religious is a question for better minds than mine!
"The more I study religions, the more I'm convinced that man worships only himself." Sir Richard Francis Burton.
What if you look at prayer without the religious connotations.
Whether you see it as positive mental attitude, or positive intention
it is very similar to the practices in psychaitry of Neuro Linguistic Programming or Hypnosis.
I think the power in any of these comes from believing it is possible.
Thousands of years ago, without the distractions and opinions of our modern age, I am sure that there was more power and better results
to the practice of singular or collective prayer. That is why the practice has persisted through the ages.
I'd like to see more experiments done to see what our minds are collectively capable of as human beings, without the requirement of any deity being invoked.
http://www.theintentionexperiment.com makes for interesting reading!!
As a person of faith I feel compelled to challenge some of the ideas put forth here.
First, I think that like many people you want to make organized religion synonymous with God and faith. I often feel like the person who is on a plane to Florida that is hijacked to Cuba. Since I am now in Cuba the US government won't help me because I went to Cuba against their advice. My faith is often hijacked by both organized religion and its adversaries.
Religious organizations often go where their followers would never go (just like political parties, governments, book clubs or just about anything else run by human beings). As a Roman Catholic I have heard many wonderful and inspirational sermons from priests. I have also heard perverse, racist, hateful and nonsensical sermons from priests. I fully understand that I will now be forced to swallow every word of the idiotic sermons by those who either (in good faith – no pun intended) challenge my beliefs or simply detest religion as the "opiate of the masses". What am I to do? Read "Das Capital" or buy a little red book? Do I abandon everything of value in my church because there are a few idiots in the group (some of them are called "Pope" too)? Or do I stick around for the good people/stuff and suffer the fools for their sake?
Let me ask you something? Would you contribute to this blog if you had to take ownership of every word written here? What organizations would you belong to if your personal intelligence/integrity was going to be rated based on what the guy or gal next to you was saying? You get my drift. John Lennon once said, "Jesus was cool, but his disciples were thick and ordinary". I agree that this is too often the case, but it does not negate Jesus or God.
The study that you quote says simply that long distance prayer for the sick that is unknown to the subject does not work and can even have a negative impact (Go figure that one! I guess that is why my prayers for Madeleine Murray O'Hare have yielded no results). However, it also says that prayer for the sick that know that they are receiving those prayers is often beneficial. It is also a fact proven through studies that people of faith tend to live longer and healthier lives in general. Now I agree that this may be psychological in origin, but it is still wonderful. I personally don't care if God really parted the Red Sea or if He/She just tripped Pharoah with a garden hose that Moses left lying around. What is important is that good people were saved.
What about when the good people are not saved? Good question. Honestly, I don't know the answer. The only thing that I can posit here is that I think that we don't always have all of the information that we think that we do, or fully comprehend the question.
Pardon my silly example; You win 130 million in the lottery. Being a good and generous person you try to use some of the money to help out your family and friends. One day your nephew Billy approahes you for a gift of 10K to put a downpayment on a house. You have already given similar amounts to other family members and this seems like a modest and positive request. However, Billy's mom, dad, brother and sister have secretly contacted you to tell you that Billy is an addict. He has recently overdosed twice and his parents are convinced that the 10K will simply be used to purchase the dose that will finally kill Billy. They beg you to turn Billy down. You believe them and you refuse Billy the gift.
Billy goes on the warpath. You are a terrible human being, "Uncle Scrooge". You have all of this money and won't lend me a dime. Billy calls all of the relatives to complain and make his case. Most of them do not yet know that Billy is an addict and sympathize with him. Billy does not even know that you have been contacted by his parents and siblings about his drug use. As a good person you do not betray the confidence of Billy's parents and siblings. The consensus in the larger family is that you just don't like Billy for some arbitrary and mean reason. Billy's life continues to go badly. He dies a few months later of what the police call a suicide. Many in the family blame you and always will. You are a cruel and uncaring god. In fact, it goes on your tombstone.
If we fragile beings can so often misunderstand/misinterpret one another so easily why would God be any more comprehensible to us? Do you really want a God that directly intervenes in your daily life like some obnoxious TV mother in law? Sure He cures your gout, but then He gives you leprosy because you lied on your tax return. My problem with many agnostics and atheists is that they often appear to lobby for a God that if He/She were to exist/intervene would be everybody's worst nightmare. Some Yenta on a mission. Personally, I will stick with the God that you are so skeptical about. The God we have.
Vesperant: Thanks for the thoughtful post. You raise many good issues.
Does anyone have to buy into every word published on this blog? Absolutely not. It is a wide-open marketplace of ideas, many of them conflicting ideas. I would hope that no one would accept anything I wrote just because I wrote it. I would hope that our ideas work only when they work on their own merits. I know I can speak for all of the authors when I say that we all want to be challenged. We are ready to abandon our position and ready to take on better reasoned, better substantiated positions.
Organized religions are different in that those in charge usually have an officially-sanctioned list of beliefs that one must accept in order to belong. Those lists always include many things for which there is no credible evidence and several things that are oxymoronic (three person in one God; virgin birth). Further, most religions use people in positions of authority to tell their audience what to believe because someone said to believe, not because they are necessarily well-reasoned or well-supported ideas (though some of the ideas presented by religions are, indeed, well-reasoned and well-supported).
Those who belong to religions oftn belong despite the fact that they don't really believe most of these troublesome articles of faith. They might belong because members of the church help the poor or because they crave a sense of community or because they like the music. But organized religions usually present themselves as communities of homogenous beliefs, at least regarding the basic articles of faith. This, in so many cases, is false. The pews are filled with people who don't believe many of those things and many who don't even know the basic articles of faith of their own church. http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1718
The problem all starts, in my mind, when people start asserting as truth, things that they don't really know or believe. Does prayer cure? There is no evidence of this, yet many people of faith assert it as truth, just as they assert that Jesus definitely walked on water (for which we have a sketchy apochrophal account that would be laughed out of any courtroom).
I sense that Unitarians are more sensitive to this concern than most other religions, but why even be a unitarian? Why have any organization that pretends to speak for large numbers of people for whom it doesn't actually speak? Why not just get together in an acknowledged diversity of (often conflicting) beliefs and just do good works together?
I've stuggled with this for years. I suspect that the assertion of dogmatic beliefs is a powerful display that facilitates bonding (which then enables better-coordinated good works). Does the use of unsubstantiated articles of faith work well to cause bonding? Absolutely. It's incredibly powerful. Perhaps it the most potent means of getting large people to bond (both politically and religiously). It certainly works better for most people, than critical thought and skepticism. Hence, very few highly-bonded organizations based on skepticism. Those tight bonds are critically necessary for turning thoughts into real life actions, it seems. See here http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=217.
That "God we have" is an interesting issue of definition, I believe. See Yana Kanarski's exploration of that topic here: http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1122. Or that God might even be something (I intentionally didn't say "someone") that even I might find interesting. See here. http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1203
Hi Erich,
Thanks for your excellent response to my post. You and I are in basic agreement about organized religion. I agree that historically the record is very mixed. But, I am one of those stubborn people that believes in trying to fix these things rather than abandoning them to the wolves. I have the same relationship with my government and its elected officials in many cases too. I keep up the hope that someday both my church and my government will reflect more of their founder's vision than they do the vision of the self centered beaurocracies that have them imprisoned right now.
I am one of those who do not believe that to be Catholic I must buy into everything that is said at Mass or in the Vatican. Anyone studying a history of the church will know that this whole idea of mandatory conformity with the Holy See was an invention by a small clique that came long after Jesus and anyone that walked with him were gone. I want my church to return to the original concept that it started out with. The church IS the congregation and not the clergy. The clergy are merely the servants of both God and the congregation. Today that has been twisted around and most people believe that the clergy are the church. That paradigm works well for most of the clergy, but not for the rank and file who seem to end up believing that Father Bill will somehow get them into or keep them out of God's good graces. I believe that like this blog churches should be venues for new ideas and sanctuaries of progress. Churches are supposed to exercise persuasion and not coercion. We have to get back to that.
I don't believe that to be a "real" Republican that you must automatically be pro life. Neither do I believe that to be a "real" Democrat that you must support every entitlement program that gets proposed. People that set these criteria of "authenticity" are usually members of a small fanatical minority at the core of a party that are attempting to control the agenda of the group. Their manipulations can spring from true ideological belief, but I think that more often this is done out of a strong desire for power and control over other people. Suddenly and without a conscious decision by the majority this small clique is deciding who can be in and who is out. A powerful position to be in. Honest differences of opinion morphed into heresy. People who have spent their whole lives as Republicans or Democrats suddenly find themselves "independent" because some unelected fuhrer (s) has decided that they are not orthodox enough to belong.
People band together into groups because we are social animals and because we love to conspire with each other to do good. One person can move a mound of dirt while a hundred people together can move a mountain. People love moving mountains together. Other less idealistic people see this desire and envision the power they could have if they can get control of the group. To gain control you must divide and conquer. Suddenly there are voices saying that the wrong mountains are being moved and that some people are working harder than others. Oh, by the way if you make me president of the mountain movers association I will get rid of the shirkers, establish rules (dogmas) and find the best mountains to move. No more non-believers. No more fooling around. You will benefit. Of course, in the end the shirkers are usually the folks opposed to establishing the power structure inside of the group in the first place. They are just the first victims in what will surely wind up being a long list as the power elite struggles to maintain command and control.
"Kingdoms will not change until men change" – John the Baptist.
Religion is (or ought to be) about self examination. Constant reassessment of one's goals, activities, attitudes and actions. Inward reflection and contemplation. Most people find this process too disturbing. They would much rather focus on what is wrong with you than on what is wrong with themselves. It is a human foible that runs in direct opposition to most religious thought. Power elites are very good at distracting people from the painful task of self examination and encouraging them to investigate their neighbors. It is much more fun to find the sinner/heretic/heathen down the street than it is to wrestle with your own demons. Organized religion today (for the most part) encourages people within their groups to feel good about themselves based purely on their membership in the group (shut up, follow the rules and pay the dues) and not on any real personal spiritual progress or enhancement. The focus is on those crazy (fill in the blank with your favorite heretics here) who are going to hell if we don't stop them. Of course, the fact that we might beat them there because of our own actions is only lightly and infrequently considered.
There is nothing in the Gospels about Jesus standing outside of a brothel, casino, pagan temple or orgy and ranting and raving. In fact the only time in the Gospels that Jesus lost his temper and started yelling at people was outside the main temple of his own faith. What does that tell you? It tells me that power elites perverting religious faith to their own purposes has been going on for a very long time and is a much greater sin than getting laid, placing a bet or going to the "wrong" church combined.
That is my view on the difference between organized religion and personal faith. Many people still belong to churches, political parties, activist groups and civic associations that they do not accept as correct on every point. They simply refuse to allow the group to be hijacked or be forced out by the power brokers of the moment. The issue of whether or not we are crazy, lazy, or courageous is in the eye of the beholder I guess.
Here are a couple of simple ideas that I think transcend any particular religious or secular belief systems.
1. Love your neighbor.
Simple and elegant. If everyone in the world made the welfare of others a priority in all of their dealings and transactions, whether business, civic or personal, do you think the world would be a different place? And it has nothing to do with what religion you believe in, or even if you think there is a god or not. It transcends dogma – religious, corporate and military.
2. Free will.
We all have the capacity to make choices in every decision we make. When an Israeli soldier points a gun at a 12 year old Palestinian, he has as much freedom to choose to pull the trigger as he does to choose to not pull it. Its human belief systems – dogma – that get in the way. If each person with a gun knew that they were soley responsible for their actions if they pull the trigger and end a life, then maybe things might be different. Think about how many choices are made in the world each day. If every choice were made with the welfare of others in mind, what might the world be like?
Way too idealistic, right?
Hi ant,
Thanks for the reply. I agree with your sentiments completely. I don't know how practical that is either, but it is a good starting point if we could just get everyone on board. Unilateral action just never succeeds in the long run.
Ant, I don't think that free will "trancends" religion. For example, if you have to pray 5 times a day, or say hail mary before a meal, or cannot have sex because you think you are committing sin, that is not free will.
Vesperiant, I am quite hesitant to disagree with you ever since seeing your physique on that bodybuilding tape. God bless 🙂
Ant's solution is much too simple. It'll never work. Where's the bureaucracy, the power struggles? Where's the "us vs them" mentality that seems to be so important to helping people bond? In ant's system there's no punishment or reward. No praying for favors from above.
Love one another??? Who do you think you are….Jesus?
I'll tell you what I think of religon … all of them!! Some man didn't understand how life started so he made up a religion to make his self feel better about the life around him. I'm not sure how people can put their faith into someone they've never met! Especially when your praying to some man that all you know could have been a child molester when he was alive or some weird statue! I know this might sound weird but I pray to Nature. I can see nature I know it's there! It's alive. It makes me feel so much better about life after spending time surrounded by nature. It's better than church. Nature never gets boring.
(Sometimes I pray to my Shih Tzu, "Skittles" (Dog) I've noticed that ever since we brought her into our lives we have had unbelievable good luck! I think that it's her. no I'm not into witch craft or magic or anything so don't say it. 🙂 I get that a lot because I love nature and faeries and Magic goofy stuff. 🙂 I love reading about spells and stuff of that nature but am affraid to actually go through with it. :))
You believe in faeries?! And magic. What's the difference here to religion?
The solution to sexual abuse by Catholic clergy is prayer:
There you have it. The solution is praying to an invisible sentient Being, rather than proper oversight regarding highly educated adults who are raping children. See here for more.
Hi Eric,
Yes, this situation is very, very sad. They claim to believe in God and yet they do nothing to protect the least of his children. They are simply a beaurocracy trying to protect themselves from their own criminal behavior. It simply goes to show that God often has as much to do with organized religion as He does with the auto club.
Many biblical scholars interpret the second commandment, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" not to prohibit us from saying "Goddammit", or some other alleged profanity, rather they see it as a firm injunction against those who would misrepresent God to their own advantage or enrichment. I think that this behavior falls into that category. Tragic.
"…a firm injunction against those who would misrepresent God to their own advantage or enrichment."
I often wonder how Christian Fundies avoid problems with this, given the boastful way so many of them parade their claimed beliefs. Not that they necessarily gain advantage or enrichment in the sense Vesperiant probably means (i.e., material gain), but they certainly do seem overly certain of their eternal salvation.
Vesperiant's observation also rings true in this season of presidential politics, with some candidates nearly tripping over themselves to win the evangelical vote. It's sad that so many evangelicals are so easily convinced of a candidates superior merits merely because said individual declares a belief in Jesus. Of course, some have the history to back it up, but most don't. For these folks, declarations of religious belief are probably one of the easiest ways to deceive voters. We need only think of the Ted Haggards and Jim Bakers of this world to know that claims of religious belief need have little in common with a "believer's" private affairs.