People have all kinds of hobbies. Some people like to knit. Other people like to collect stamps. I like to go to church while playing the role of “anthropologist.”
When I am thinking about visiting a church, my biggest decision is deciding what church to visit. That was my decision three days ago. I had already been to a stern and humorless evangelical church. The thing I remembered about that church was the scriptural quotation featured on the T-shirts of hundreds of the people attending: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.” It was a quote from Proverbs 1:7. I remember thinking “Of all the quotes they could’ve chosen from the Bible, this one is strange indeed. Any good teacher knows that the best students are driven by natural curiosity and a good dose of skepticism, not by fear.”
Back to my task of choosing a church. Last week, I just happened to be in the car listening to a fundamentalist A.M. radio station when I heard neocon talk show host Paul McGuire ranting about a new crop of churches designed for young people, churches that allegedly don’t spend enough time on the Bible but, instead, cater to the social needs of the congregation. Maguire’s rant went on for several minutes, long enough for me to conclude that I simply had to go to one of these new hip churches to see for myself.
As it turns out, one of those new “emerging” churches is located about a mile from my house and it is called The Journey. This is not your mama and papa’s church, as you can tell from the pictures below. First of all, how many churches have their website featured prominently on their sign? This building used to be owned by a Catholic Church, but the Catholics are busy turning ever-more conservative, it seems. In fact, the pope just announced that Catholic pharmacists should not dispense evil drugs such as birth control pills. This top-down management style has had the effect of running off lots of actual or potential Catholic parishioners. Hence, the closing of this particular Catholic Church and its sale to “The Journey.”
After I entered the church, I noticed that the Catholic statues had been removed (Catholics love forelorn-looking statues) and that the inside of the church had been painted in strikingly tasteful Ralph Laurenesque colors. There was no altar, but only a stage with music stands and microphones. There was a wooden crucifix, but no graphic image of mutilated and bleeding man on that cross. Featured more prominently than the cross was a big screen above the cross on which the song lyrics and the PowerPoint images relating to the sermon would be projected.
As I walked into this church of The Journey (which has existed since only 2002) I heard Coldplay and other popular music amplified throughout the building. The people in the church were casually dressed and fairly young (typically ranging from their 20s to their 40s). I couldn’t help but notice that the men were more handsome than average and the women were more beautiful than average, compared to many other churches I’ve attended. It was like going to an upscale bar, except there was no alcohol or smoking and it was Sunday morning. Compared to other churches I’ve attended, these people tended to be in much better physical shape and they looked much more focused and animated than many congregations, based upon their facial expressions. As I walked through the church trying to decide where to sit, the parishioners were notably friendly (though church-goers all tend to be friendly when they get together). I couldn’t help but think that this is a different kind of crowd than one would find in many churches, and that this place had been transformed into their place, a place where many traditions and formalisms would be left behind.
The service began when a man came out and greeted the people by saying “Hi, I’m Mike.” Mike played the guitar and sang, leading the parishioners in the singing of several songs, accompanied by an accordionist. The sound system was outstanding.
I paid special attention to the words of the songs. The were songs of thanks and humility and love of God. The songs repeatedly mentioned family themes such as surrendering the parishioners lives to God, their father, and being “adopted” by God through Jesus. The songs were largely devoid of lyrics urging that we constantly grovel before God and proclaim that we’re nothing but dirty little cockroaches deserving to be thrown into the deepest pits of hell (some churches take this approach, believe it or not).
After the music, “Darrin” took the stage and started his long talk. Darrin Patrick, a confident yet warm fellow about 40-years of age, was casually dressed and armed with a bottle of water. “Are you ready to get yelled at for 45 minutes?” The congregation chuckled.
Darrin’s talk distinguished between surface-level obedience and heart-level obedience. Before I heard the talk I was assuming that, perhaps, this church would minimize the Bible, focusing on psychology and other quasi-religious approaches. I was wrong, however. Darrin spent much of his talk pointing out and elaborating specific Bible passages. Now for the big coincidence: one of the passages he discussed was the same passage celebrated by those austere evangelicals described above, Proverbs 1:7: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.” Darrin worked really hard to spin this passage in a nonthreatening way. In fact, he intellectually contorted himself into a pretzel. He “explained” that the “fear” referred to the trembling a believer felt because “God is working in you.” I wasn’t convinced, nor do I think any thoughtful person would have bought this explanation. It seems to me that fear is always a bad basis for knowledge, at least among sincere and thoughtful students; there’s no way to spin it otherwise. Strained Bible interpretation (“hermeneutics”) is the plight of people who take it as their duty to “explain” or “harmonize” the vague, troublesome and self-contradictory passages of the Bible as the foundation for their social organizations. I would clear it all out and start anew, but parishioners (and prospective parishioners) are familiar with such words and images, allowing them to feel more quickly at home. And, of course, I’ve never started a church, so what would I know? Other than my conviction that that the miracles touted by the Bible never happened. And I do speak as an ordained minister!
Darrin made it clear that he was not there to terrorize and oppress the congregation. Based upon the types of people filling this church, they would not stand for it. Nor would they be the sort of crowd that would simply lap up just any absurdity he threw their way. For instance, he explained that God is a Trinity with one “what” and three “who’s.” He paused. Then he asked who understood this concept of the Trinity. Then he explained that no one understands it. “We can’t wrap our minds around it.” I wondered just how many of the people there were OK with the “God is love” message, but were bored with most of the rest, tolerating this church (just as they would tolerate most any church) because of the social connections it provides. The Journey provides many opportunities for social gatherings. In addition to the Sunday services, there are film nights, community improvement endeavors and informal theology gatherings at a local micro-brewery.
Back to the fear, however. Darrin explained that now is a time for “fear and trembling, because we’re really dealing with God.” He reminded the people that we are “riddled with insecurity and God is working in us.”
Having good ideas is not good enough, according to Darrin. The Bible is not important to us merely because it has good ideas. It’s good because “it’s God speaking.” He explained that “there will be heaven and we will see Jesus in heaven.” Is it enough for a person to simply believe? Not at all. “We are saved by faith alone, but not by faith that remains alone.” Darrin explain that we don’t have a God we work for; we have a God that works in and through us. It is God’s work that “enables our good work.” As you might sense, this talk was closely based on the same Bible passages one would hear in many other sorts of Christian churches, though there was something different about this church.
Darrin explained that God motivates us so that we want to obey. He quoted from Ezekial (36:23) and Jeremiah (32:40 “I will put from of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.”). These passages made me think of mind control— it sounded like a God who hypnotizes us into doing his will, something that actually sounds incompatible with the our alleged exercise of free will. After all, if God alters the human mind too much, then it’s no longer the human being who is doing the choosing.
Just when you thought that Darrin was getting a little heavy-handed, he backed off. He sometimes spoke of his own failings and insecurities. He indicated that explaining biblical verses is often not easy and sometimes not fun.
Darrin cited C.S. Lewis, who stated that a perfect man does not act out of a sense of duty, and that duty is a substitute for love like a crutch as a substitute for a healthy leg. Darrin explained that we are free to keep God’s law but we are not slaves to keep God’s law. At bottom, “you don’t have to live in fear. You aren’t going to be punished because God crushed your sins on a cross.”
He took some swipes at conservative Christian churches. Many Christians “act like slaves, not children.” He criticized churches that are obsessed with rule-following. See the attached handout from the service: The Journey – son and slave.pdf The Journey cultivated God’s “children,” whereas those stern churches out there made “slaves” of their followers. Seemed like a pretty fair generalization. To me, however, it has never been clear why it should be admirable that an adult assume the role of “child” to a God. Shouldn’t adults always assume the role of adults? Responsible, questioning adults? It seems that it would only be in this way that people could avoid a co-dependence on God (assuming that there is a God).
We need to “stop relegating God to external laws, according to Darrin. We need a little more delight and less duty.” Darrin admitted that he didn’t sign up to be a church leader “to be condemning.”
He invited the newcomers to the church to join in the communion. He suggested to these newcomers that they feel no compulsion to donate money to the church, but simply enjoy the service. Interestingly, the ritual had largely been stripped out of the service (compared to, for instance, the highly ritualistic Catholic Mass). There were no droning chants and responses at The Journey. What might be termed the liturgy took up perhaps five minutes of the entire service. Almost the entire service consisted of the music and the long talk. Ironically, many Catholics I know love those rote chants and songs–these scripted portions are their favorite parts of the Catholic Mass. They like being left alone, intellectually speaking.
The Journey’s written literature indicates that the church is based upon “the Bible as the Word of God.” The written basis of this religion (for the most part, the Bible) is really hard to distinguish from the written beliefs of most other Christian churches. There was something about the attitude of the people of this church, however, that was far different than other churches, especially conservative churches. This church was clearly not based upon fear, oppression or bigotry. There was no mention of hell, for example. I spoke to a couple of folks who attended this church regularly and learned that this is not the kind of church that excludes and deprecates people who are different (such as gays) or goes out of its way to attack those who might cling to other beliefs or no beliefs. Here’s a sentence from the literature: “We believe that it’s healthy for people of all world-views and spiritual beliefs to have their ideas and philosophies both challenged and encouraged in a safe, open environment.”
The Journey, which now consists of more than two thousand members, portrays itself to be a big tent that invites a wide variety of people to join. The church literature indicates that The Journey encourages community involvement in such groups as Habitat for Humanity. The church is big on supporting art and artists.
In conclusion, this seemed like it would be a great church to join for anyone who believed in the stories of the Bible. Unfortunately, I do not believe such stories (for the reasons I’ve stated throughout this blog). For those seeking endorphins, this might, indeed, be a good church to join. There was synchronized standing and sitting, carefully performed music and the opportunity to mingle with friendly-seeming others, for instance.
I felt like I was sitting between two diametrically opposed worlds when I returned home after the service. At The Journey, I was far from the threatening and humorless preachings of the conservative evangelical church I wrote about a year and a half ago. On the other hand, the people of The Journey still cling to many traditional beliefs, and it really wasn’t just a big “party,” as Paul McGuire might’ve suggested. A thought continues to tantalize me: why not just give up the many oxymoronic belief and establish a church where people simply come together to coordinate their efforts to do good in the community? Why assert impossible beliefs? Why claim that dead people become alive and that invisible beings concern themselves with our lives? I’ve tried to answer this before, so I won’t go into it here (but also see here).
I will admit this, however. There is something significant about atmosphere of a church that goes way beyond the words spoken. It is truly incredible how two entirely different churches (The Journey compared to the evangelical church I previously wrote about) can rely upon the same book and the same scriptural readings, yet come to such different ways of treating their members and treating outsiders.
I actually did enjoy my time at The Journey, though I don’t buy into most of their religious claims. It occurred to me that those who attended this church had a notably positive energy about them. It occurred to me that I would very much like to be part of a community group like this, one that included so many positive and energetic people. I’m not a candidate for the membership of any church, however. I do not allow myself to say I believe things that I don’t believe, however, and I’m not entirely comfortable being around people who say they believe things that I don’t think they really believe.
Despite the many assertions about God, crucifixion and heaven, I am convinced that those who attend The Journey include lots of good-hearted and decent folks and I’m glad for them that they have each other and that the community receives the benefit of their good works.
"If there is nothing out there, nothing that happens after we die – what does it matter if we are bad or good to others?"
Jen: It only matters if you want it to matter. Would you still be kind to your neighbor? Would you run around like Jack the Ripper? No. I think you will still be a good person, even once you realize that God is just an idea.
Larry, be careful not to underestimate the power of skepticism.
"Dry ice is commonly used to package items that need to remain cold or frozen, such as ice cream, without the use of mechanical cooling. In medicine it is used to freeze warts to make removal easier. In the construction industry it is used to loosen floor tiles by shrinking and cracking them, as well as to freeze water in valveless pipes to allow repair. In laboratories, a slurry of dry ice in organic solvent is a useful freezing mixture for cold chemical reactions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_ice
Darrin: I'd love to chat over coffee. Thanks for visiting the blog. I've sent you private email to coordinate time & place.
Erich
"Again, is there another religion where the God of that religion sacrifices himself for the sake of his followers – making heaven a gift extended to those who believe and follow him?"
Actually, this makes churchianity more like the others than less. Jesus died for ALL men of all religions, not just His followers, and not just for believers. We are not saved by believing, we realize we are saved by believeing. It's more of a gift than even the "christians" realize.
xiaogou, at the moment I don't understand what you mean with your analogy…
The religiously blessed with their endless sermons and judgment of anybody who does not believe wonder why some people who don't want to hear it anymore complain and criticize their faith. Not everybody wants his kids to learn creationism instead of biology at school.
Some are really like teflon, all the questions you throw at them get repelled. Sometimes they will even give you this clement benevolent smile that is supposed to convey that they understand that you're not ready yet for the good message. Others earn a little bit of respect when I see that they still remain cheerful and optimistic despite the expression on my face that probably tells some that I think they are lost beyond goodness.
I would like Larry to answer my questions instead of belittling skepticism.
projektleiterin: I didn't realize your questions were directed at me.
“Why is the angry God in the Old Testament so completely different from the forgiving God in the New Testament?”
Your assessment is a result of the teachings of men, rather than the Spirit. I have heard worse than this right from the pulpit. But you should know, God showed mercy and forgiveness in the OT and promises to "destroy them which destroy the earth" in the NT. He does not change, we change.
In my opinion it is ridiculous to compare man-made idols, which are quite naturally made in their image, with the Living God. We are not equipped to grasp the fulness of the Godhead. This is why we need, and are given an indwelling {an earnest} of the Spirit. It is not in man that walketh to direct his own steps. We don't even know how, or what to pray for.
Insistence on "proof" or that God conform to our version of reality blinds us to what is happening right in front of our faces. If you knew half as much about your Creator, and what He is doing, as you seem to believe, you would not be so dogmatic.
Mark: I don't have time to go on and on as I've done in my past replys which is why I said I wouldn't be replying anymore but here goes…
first the definition of truth – what truth is – truth never changes. the only thing that changes is what humans are able to learn. Was the earth actually flat when people were taught that it was flat and everyone knew the scientific truth of the earth was that it was flat? The truth is that earth is shaped like a ball, not a map. The truth didn't change but the humans ablilty to decipher data did. 2 + 2 will always equal 4, right? If you try to say that truth is always changing – that's a complete contradiction which is why I've reconciled to the fact that there has to at least be some sort of something out there where ultimately truth comes from. I will say that too many christians try to spout 'Truth' when they are going off of feelings or emotions…and it's just as irritating to me (if not more) than to someone who isn't one.
You said:
"“Feelings” are not the sole basis for any reasoned decision-making, although they are indispensible. But skepticism is not a feeling—it is a learned, complex approach to claims, demanding examination and analysis. A skeptical feeling may precede this, but true skepticism never ends with the feeling. It is the basis for our understanding of just about everything,because without it Truth would be a term used for whatever people in authority tell us to believe."
But I'm telling you that skeptisism would not be necessary if truth was ever changing. Skeptisism would get you nowhere because as soon as you catch up what's true right now, maybe next week it would change…
I find it funny that an atheist would deem it necessary to hold another person responsible for their actions – how is that different from what God tries to do (or for those of you who don't believe in God – what the writings of a 'holy' book try to do)?
If one human says this is truth and another says that is truth – which sets of truth win? How do you tell? Majority vote obviously isn't good enough because the majority of the world thought this earth was flat not that long ago.
I am not against living life to the fullest – I am not against holding people accountable.
I just get so irritated when atheists try to say their way of thinking is different/smarter/makes more sense than someone who believes in something outside of this place because it's no less crazy, no less different and the idea of truth ever changing or coming from within a being that is less than perfect makes less sense than what I claim.
Ben: I may still be a 'good' person if I wanted to but you only empasized my point by saying that it will ONLY MATTER IF I WANT IT TO.
Dan, you said:
"How unlikely is it that the Earth is so well tuned for life? Backwards question. Given the billions of planets in our galaxy, and the billions of galaxies full of billions of planets, and billions of years for things to drift and adjust on each of these: How likely is it that some of these would not be so perfectly tuned? Given that near certainty of a perfect planet somewhere, of course that question would only be asked by residents of one of these well-tuned planets. The one we inhabit is one of these.
You can take it a stage further: Given the quintillions of parallel universes, each with its own subtle variations on the laws of physics…""
Again I quote: "Given the near certainty of a perfect planet somewhere…" Is it ok for me to play your game and say I can't see your perfect planet, I can't know 100% for sure it's there… And yet your ways of thinking about life are so different from mine?
Using your idea of a near certainty to try to disprove my idea of a near certainty sounds pretty much like you have to have as much faith in your theory as I do in mine.
As I told Erich already – I'm not writing what I'm writing to get people to say God exists. I'm just a chrisitian frustrated by atheists telling me that their way of thinking, acting, debating, etc., is so different from mine.
Jen:
You raise many issues, many worthy issues. It's not that I don't want to answer your topics (because I will actually write a few responses here), but this site has been up for more than a year and a half and we have discussed many of these issues in great detail (check the "Religion" category). As you will see from reading this site, many of the authors at Dangerous Intersection disagree with each other but, we do tend to be a bunch of skeptics.
Given that we are a bunch of skeptics (who do not believe in the existence of supernatural beings) why do we care about those people who do believe such things?
I thought I answered that with my suggestion (in the first paragraph of my post) that I was acting as an "anthropologist." I'm not really an anthropologist, but I do take an interest in people with other viewpoints than my own. I think the world would be much better off if everyone would take more of an interest in viewpoints that conflict with their own. For instance, if religious believers would spend more time examining the religious beliefs of other religions, they would soon notice that all religions claim to have knowledge that they don't really have. Religions encourage their believers to say that they know many things that they don't really know. I find this behavior fascinating. I think that the world would be much better off if people who don't know things would simply say that they don't know these things. Did Jesus rise from the dead? Honest people would say something like this:
To me, it's as strange as if you went shopping at Kmart, and the store clerk told you that there were lots of invisible shoes for sale, insisting that she learned of this through an ancient book.
I also find interest in religions (not just "get that"), because they can be powerful organizations through which enable good people to do good things and enable ignorant or hardhearted people do evil things. I want to understand the dynamic mechanism through which religions funnels the energies of individuals into more pronounced accomplishments, for good or ill.
When I suggested that I believed in "God," I was being disingenuous, though you could actually (and some people do actually) call my worldview religious in that A) I believe life is meaningful, b) I believe that humans are perpetually in a state of great ignorance and C) it blows my mind to think that something as complicated as a human being can evolve out of much simpler forms of life. Not that I'm denying evolution. I'm actually a big advocate of evolution, as you can see from reading various posts at the site. However, I don't claim to have deep insight into any of the big mysteries of life. In the face of these big ministries, I have repeatedly said "I don't know." Again, I think the world would be much better off if most of us would learn to say it more loudly and more often: "I don't know."
You're right to raise the issue of how to define "humble empathy." It is not easy to define. I would say this, however. There are a lot of people who are clearly not humble and a lot of people who are unfeeling towards others. In my experience, they would be unlikely to be good examples of people who we should admire.
You suggest that no other religion has a God who sacrifices himself for his followers. I have not done an exhaustive study, but here's a list of several dozen gods who all were born, suffered death or an eclipse or other death-like experience, passed a phase in the underworld among the dead, and were subsequently reborn, in either a literal or symbolic sense. This general formula is not unique to Christianity.
Much of what you depend on for your comments stems from a belief that the Bible is a history book, that it accurately reports that supernatural events happened on earth. It's hard to answer such claims because I don't believe that the Bible accurately reports supernatural events. Therefore, when you comment that it's really terrific that Jesus did X, Y or Z supernatural exhibitions, my reaction is that I don't believe that Jesus did any of those things.
You raise another interesting point when you argue that life cannot have any meaning if there is no God. There are numerous other people who would agree with you on that point. I don't agree with you, however. Even without a belief in God, I can love my children and I can work hard to volunteer to serve my community and country. I can aspire to high ideals and I can feel compelled to reach out to those who aren't as fortunate as I am. None of this requires a belief in supernatural being. I don't need to have some eternal reward waiting for me in order to feel compelled to try to make the world a better place.
I'm sure you could make some progress explaining away some of the contradictions in the list I provided (from the Skeptics Annotated Bible). On the other hand, I would be amazed if you made any headway with more than half of them. I really don't think these are problems caused by mistranslations, at least not most of them. Since you asked, I don't think of the media has yet reported fairly on religion. I think the media has generally given religion a free ride, all religions, even though so many religions flagrantly disagree with each other. They can't all be right on the points on which they disagree, right? So why not bring to the fore the fact that so many religions must be wrong and at least certain ways. This would be a good start for cultivating humility. Or how about this? To show me any religion or the preacher gets up and says "Of course, much of what I'm telling you is quite speculative and I could be wrong about many of these things." How refreshing that would be? Then again, that’s not what most churchgoers want to hear. They crave certitude, whether substantiated or not. That’s a shame in my view, because craving certitude amounts to blaspheming Life’s mysteries.
Just because I don't have answers to Life's big mysteries doesn't mean that religion's answers are correct. That would be a logical fallacy. Why do we exist? I don't know. What is our purpose? I don't know. Is there a heaven? I don't know. Does my lack of knowledge really compel the conclusion that Jesus died on a cross and rose from the dead? Does my lack of knowledge compel a finding that Christianity is correct any more than it compels a finding that Buddhism is correct? Ignorance is ignorance, and we can draw no conclusions from ignorance.
Uh-oh. Sorry. I don't have any respect for any organization that is simply "grace-based." You're either out there doing good works or you're not. If you're not doing good works, you are a bunch of hot air. That is my prejudice, and you may very well disagree with me on this.
Sorry, I don't read Sir Isaac Newton to learn about evolution. He doesn't hold a candle to Darwin. By the way, I highly recommend that you read Darwin first hand. I think you'll find him to be a truly humble writer who is inspired to study his world because he found it to be a place full of wonderful things. You'll find Darwin utterly respectful of all forms of life . . . well, except for those nonexistent "supernatural" forms of life!
Reading your comments and sensing your enthusiasm did bring me a half smile. Thank you for taking the time to visit the site. Forgive the brevity of this reply given the importance and the breadth of the many topics you raised. But do consider clicking on the "religion" category at this site and taking a look at the sorts of things we've done here in the past. You might not agree with us, but I hope that you find it interesting and engaging.
Jen:
All I'll add is that you seem to confuse truth with fact. Truth is a process of recognition (I'm speaking in a philosophical sense) and that changes with our ability to comprehend, to see. We become different people over time and so our ability to perceive changes. Truth itself probably doesn't change, but that's the problem of Other Minds, isn't it?
The Earth is a sphere–that is a fact. It also goes around the sun. At one time people thought the sun went around the Earth. But, as Wittgenstein asked some of his students one day, what would it look like if the sun actually did go around the Earth? The same.
Human beings use the terms Truth and Fact interchangeably. But as you ought to know (professing yourself a seeker after truth) Truth is about meaning.
As for an atheist holding others accountable for their actions…why wouldn't I? I hold myself accountable for my actions, it is only reasonable that this should be the case for others. And since we are not islands, it is impossible to live together without that basis.
Anyway, skepticism is even more important to determine the differences between what is and what is not and what it therefore Means.
The whole concept of a god and all that hangs on that creation is an attempt to not only find meaning but concretize it.
I enjoyed reading this exchange with everyone's thoughtful and civilized responses.
For your next "anthropological study", I recommend you check out the Karen House Catholic Worker community in North St. Louis, http://karenhousecw.org/
In regards to the Jesus' advice to the rich young ruler, I think that some in the Emerging Church are actively considering ALL the different paths Jesus recommended for "salvation":
from Mike C's blog
Erich: I appreciate your candor in addressing Jen's questions and the seeking {and finding} that is accommodated here.
"I wasn’t there and the only people reporting on this incredible purported event reported it at least 40 years after it allegedly happened. This is quite strange that the epistles were written for 40 or more years without focusing on the most important figure to Christians, Jesus of Nazareth. There is strangely little about Jesus or the crucifixion in any of the epistles. Forty years of this failure to acknowledge what became the central beliefs of Christians!"
This is called "straining out gnats and swallowing camels". You also weren't there to observe that it was forty years after the fact when it was written in an epistle. Someone told you it was written forty years later {or maybe a hundred someones} and you believe this rather than the five hundred that saw Him after His resurrection. But the five hundred of them didn't immediately write it down on their blog so the billions of us yet to be born would know. They just told their families and friends and people they met on a daily basis, until {perhaps 40} years afterward some of them started dieing off and they realized that a written record was needed that would survive the eye witnesses. People then were not able to talk to a machine and have every word they spoke preserved for eternity.
Skepticism has it's place, but when it is worn like a badge, or a shield, it has turned morbid {or even rancid}. Mysteries {Mark 4:11-12} are not meant for all at once nor are these things easy to be understood, even for an Apostle {2Peter 3:14-16}. I wish that more would take Peter's advice and admit their ignorance, as we have.
Larry, my questions were not directed at you. You were there, so I picked you. 🙂
What do you mean with, "he does not change, we change"? Do you mean to say that the people in the OT were different than the people in the NT?
Were there any similar stories about the destruction of big cities like Sodom and Gomorrha in the NT? Or did God demand from anybody else the same kind of loyalty and faithfulness as he did from Abraham? And the story with Job I found kind of sadistic.
If you are Christian you do rely on the Bible, don't you? You either stay away from using this book as it is clearly a product of men who contradict themselves or you have liberated yourself from it, but can you still be Christian then? What is the source of your faith then?
I have been chastised for not prefacing every statement with "I believe" or "it is my opinion" or some other such verbiage, therefore, to dispense with what should be obvious, please assume that I am relating what I have learned, and am under no obligation to browbeat you into accepting it.
"What do you mean with, “he does not change, we change”?
We change as we learn more about God who reveals Himself at His leisure and according to His own purposes. The idea that God does not change is a source of strength for those that believe Him {have found Him trustworthy} and a conundrum for those who believe He is an invention of other men.
"Do you mean to say that the people in the OT were different than the people in the NT?"
Different in that some looked forward to the work that Christ would do on our behalf, symbolized in the priesthood and the sacrifices, while others looked back at what occured seeing a fulfillment of the types laid down and the words of the prophets.
"Were there any similar stories about the destruction of big cities like Sodom and Gomorrha in the NT?"
Yes, as well as in the Apocrypha, but they have not yet occured.
"Or did God demand from anybody else the same kind of loyalty and faithfulness as he did from Abraham?"
"Demand" seems to be a bit strong. Call it an opportunity to grow. Abraham's faith was tested, which became a blessing to him and to us, just as God planned from the beginning. Faith is a gift. Unto whom much is given, much is expected.
"If you are Christian you do rely on the Bible, don’t you?" Of course.
"You either stay away from using this book as it is clearly a product of men who contradict themselves or you have liberated yourself from it, but can you still be Christian then?"
I do not see that "clearly" at all. There would be more contradictions found between what the Bible condemns and the doctrines of men teach, if the Bible were simply a product of man's intellect. Jesus castigated the religious teachers over and over for setting aside God's Law and replacing it with "the commandments and doctrines of men". If men wrote it, why would they invent such condemnations of their own practices?
You can take the Duoay version and show that the Catholic Church has corrupted itself. You can take the Book of Mormon and show that whole chapters of it are whole chapters lifted from the Bible with the names changed. You can take the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures and show that Jesus is indeed God incarnate. I could go on. Why? Because they do not know the scriptures, nor the Power of God.
"What is the source of your faith then?" Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, who, of course still speaks.
Interesting thread. Here are a couple of other angles to consider in the christian/agnostic conversation. These angles are where I am right now and I invite criticism…. I see fallacy and truth in both sides of the argument. The christians in the above posts try desperately to prove the existence of God by the use of words, and the ultimate appeal is to the rational. The agnostics say that God can't be known and the words that the christians use are contradictory and inconsistent. I see both of these postions trying to get at ultimate reality, but both are ultimately lacking, but both are on the road.
If God exists, and I will say at the outset that I believe that he does in fact exist, (exit the atheists but wait guys) then I put forth that he exists in a catagory that ultimatley defies rational explanation. Chalk one up for agnosticism. Agnosis has the root meaning of "unkowing." What I mean by this is that in every way I can think of God he is utterly transcatagorical and my thoughts and explanations cannot be truly representative of him. It is, by the way, necessary to struggle with words and concepts as long as we recognize their limitations. Failure to recognize this is why christians often come off as being arrogant know it alls in their appeal to the ulimate authority of the bible. I think that most mean well, but fail to recognize the limitations gets them to come off as dishonest. They are passing on words that they express as certitudes, of which they really have no ultimate way of being certain other than "by faith", which I do not discount. The faith may be genuine, but the expression lacking. They have simply rehearsed these words over and over in their gatherings and put it out there that they are true because they are in the bible. A seeker can easily see through this circular argument.
We all necessarily struggle to impose our anthropomorphic thoughts and words and definitions on the existence or denial of God but
He can't be known by words because words are limited to the mode of the knower. This creates a dilemna, no doubt, but not an ultimate dilemna.
God can be known directly, beyond thought, beyond rational. God can and is known, and I will say only ultimately known in this manner. There is truth that is not irrational, but trans-rational, but truth nevertheless. It is intuitive in nature, but still truth. It is truth that does not easily fall into precise language, but truth nevertheless. It is truth beyond language, truth shrouded in Mystery.
Does this discount the Bible? Not at all. I think this can go hand in hand with the bible.The Bible can be thought of as Gods Word to humanity and read and preached on but since it is words it is necessarily limited because mankind is limited. (Here is where christians get nervous but I am simply making a distinction of man being limited, not the Bible itself) We can hold up inerrancy, but christians ability to interpret it is fallible and limited, hence the disonance of christianity and multiple and manifold denominations and interpretations and endless discussions on who has the correct interpretation and corner on the truth. Liberals or conservatives, catholic or protestant, Methodists or Presbyterians, Charismatics or Non-Charismatics, Right or Wrong. I simply see this biblical methodalogical approach being wrongheaded. No group has the corner because the real Corner is Transcatagorical in every way we can think of. If it is inerrant, then christians cannot ultimately know it because they are limited and finite and therefore cannot make an ultimate judgement because they are fallible, and fall back on the "Bible makes the judgement of inerrancy of itself". Ultimately the question is moot. If christians had infinite capabilities this would not be an issue, but they dont. So if the Bible is the eternal living word of God, christians are still back to the limitations of words, needing the direct encounter of God to authenticate the experience. I would see this as the evangelical viewpoint of Word and Spirit working in unison to testify to the existence of God. I would submit that most evangelicals tilt the scale to the Word side in the equation.
Lastly, God can be known directly, and the Bible is language that is not inconsistent with direct knowledge. The Apostle Paul came to know God in the manner I am advocating, by direct knowledge. There are many such examples in the Bible.
I encounter God as many ancient christian writers teach (ie the Church Fathers )by direct encounter, beyond thought, words, concepts, definitions on a daily basis and simply say that I have a real, ongoing, minute by minute relationship with Him. The technical term is "apophatic " if anyone cares to google and read up. Ultimately, God is a Mystery that can be known in Unkowing. (Sounds really complex but it is very, very, simple)As an aside this approach is the heart of the Mystical branches of all the other major world religions, Suffism, Kaballa, Hindu, Zen).
By the way, I am an evangelical christian by formation and love it. I simply have been one long eneough to see some of the limitations.
Anyway, this is where I am at now.
The NYT has this article on Jewish "emerging churches":
Without a building and budget, Tikkun Leil Shabbat is one of the independent prayer groups, or minyanim, that Jews in their 20s and 30s have organized in the last five years in at least 27 cities around the country. They are challenging traditional Jewish notions of prayer, community and identity.
In places like Atlanta; Brookline, Mass.; Chico, Calif.; and Manhattan the minyanim have shrugged off what many participants see as the passive, rabbi-led worship of their parents’ generation to join services led by their peers, with music sung by all, and where the full Hebrew liturgy and full inclusion of men and women, gay or straight, seem to be equal priorities.
Members of the minyanim are looking for “redemptive, transformative experiences that give rhythm to their days and weeks and give meaning to their lives,” said Joelle Novey, 28, a founder of Tikkun Leil Shabbat, whose name alludes to the Jewish concept of tikkun olam, or repairing the world. It is an experience they are not finding in traditional Jewish institutions, she said.
For the full article, go here.
You wrote “Before I heard the talk I was assuming that, perhaps, this church would minimize the Bible, focusing on psychology and other quasi-religious approaches.”
This is not a new thing. The Apostle Paul and the Apostle John had to fight against this kind of thinking even in the first century.
Proverbs 1:7: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.”
“It seems to me that fear is always a bad basis for knowledge, at least among sincere and thoughtful students; there’s no way to spin it otherwise.”
If you really want to understand what this verse means then you must understand that the Bible was not originally written in English. It was written in Hebrew/Aramaic (O.T.). The Hebrew word that is translated “fear” is “yir'ah” which means awesome, reverence, respect. We throw the word awesome around like it is nothing but it is unique. If we used awesome the way that it should be it would be used for God but that is another point. To give the weight to the word “yir'ah” fear was chosen as the translation. Respecting the awesome God of the universe (listening to Him) brings about wisdom (He has given us His wisdom in His Word).
You wrote “the vague, troublesome and self-contradictory passages of the Bible as the foundation for their social organizations.”
Can you show me some supposed contradictions in the Bible, of course explaining the Context and original language? I am curious to see your verses. (I am sure I have seen them all before.)
God is a God of free will and when He puts a “new heart” in us He gives us the ability to be obedient to Him where as before this was impossible because we were slaves to sin. (Jesus said anyone who commits sin (habitual way of life) is a slave to sin yet the Son will set you free). This is the difference between Christians and non-Christians, the ability to say no to sin (I was a non-Christian once and I could not say no to sin even though I wanted to, now that I am a believer I say no every day!).
You wrote “To me, however, it has never been clear why it should be admirable that an adult assume the role of “child” to a God. Shouldn’t adults always assume the role of adults? Responsible, questioning adults?”
Jesus tells us to have childlike faith, the way a child must trust his/her parents for everything so Christians trust (faith) in God for absolutely everything.
You wrote “In conclusion, this seemed like it would be a great church to join for anyone who believed in the stories of the Bible. Unfortunately, I do not believe such stories (for the reasons I’ve stated throughout this blog).”
Just because you have never encountered God and had Him change your life does not mean that He is not real. He has changed murderers men and women of God who sacrifice everything to make disciples (followers of Jesus Christ). How can you explain that away? I was completely changed/transformed/born again, however you want to call it through the power of God. You may believe with all of your heart that it will not be cold in St. Louis in January but all of your belief does not change the fact that it will be very cold. God is real even if you do not believe it.
You wrote “A thought continues to tantalize me: why not just give up the many oxymoronic belief and establish a church where people simply come together to coordinate their efforts to do good in the community?”
That would be a country club because God is not in it. Also the people of a club like that would still be slaves to sin and they would not be able to help humanity with its greatest problem, its slavery to sin.
Eric:
You are often explaining the Bible by reference to the Bible. I find this circular. I don't deny that sincere believers have rationales for many religious conundrums. It's a technique used by followers of all religions, however. I'm sure that you would resist allowing a Hindu to convince you of the truth of Hindu doctrine by asking you to first simply accept the truth of the Hindu sacred writings.
If the word "fear" doesn't mean "fear," (if it really means awesome, reverence, respect), then the people who translated this passage are guilty of blatant malpractice. I suspect that it's not as simple as you are suggesting, and that the English translators chose the word "fear" for a reason.
Regarding your "country club" point, consider that many European countries are famous for their generous social policies, even though these policies are not based on religious doctrine and even though most of the citizens are atheists. Compare that to the U.S., where many of our most most religious communities are the most socially dysfunctional. In my experience, whether a community is religious (however one might define it) has an extremely tenuous relationship to whether that community takes care of its members.
To me, the bottom line has nothing to do with whether someone believes in Jesus or any other alleged deity. It is whether that person is intelligent, sensitive, kind and decent–and acts on those impulses.
"Fear" of God/Yaweh/Lord is the word that all the English translations use. It is unlikely that any church intends it to be interpreted otherwise.
http://bible.cc/proverbs/1-7.htm (see many translations here).
Although some commentaries there do try to explain that fear is the basis of piety, and of respect. Again, I have to side with Erich in that this is a poor form of piety or respect, much less knowledge.
Keep in mind that Christianity is all about instilling the fear of a capricious and vicious father figure and his ultimate punishment, and subsequent rescue from him by an asexual big brother who suffered more, yet is also that same father.
You wrote “You are often explaining the Bible by reference to the Bible. I find this circular. “
So you say that you cannot use the Bible to explain the Bible, correct? That is a really weak argument that people hold. I could say that a watermelon is green on the inside until it is cut and then it turns red or yellow once cut open, now prove me wrong. The only way to see inside is by cutting it so in sense you could say that the inside is any color that you want and according to your regulations you cannot be proven wrong. If you study logic, stacking the deck is not a logical argument.
You wrote “I’m sure that you would resist allowing a Hindu to convince you of the truth of Hindu doctrine by asking you to first simply accept the truth of the Hindu sacred writings.”
I am not asking one to simply “believe” the Scriptures, I want people to be open minded to studying the Bible for what It is, throwing out all of the preconceived ideas and just seeing what It says, using good study methods (context). I was once a skeptic, thinking that I knew what the Bible said. I began to study the Bible leaving out my preconceived ideas and I was shocked to see how much I had been influenced by outside sources. My life was radically changed. I challenge others to do the same.
You wrote “If the word “fear” doesn’t mean “fear,” (if it really means awesome, reverence, respect), then the people who translated this passage are guilty of blatant malpractice. I suspect that it’s not as simple as you are suggesting, and that the English translators chose the word “fear” for a reason.”
I gave you the etymology of the original Hebrew word and this is your rebuttal, please bring a little stronger argument next time!!!
You are basing Christianity on what you see in the 21st Cent when in fact Christianity is based on what is written in the Bible. If some 21st Cent supposed Christians have dropped the ball that does not mean that the Bible is wrong. For example when Jesus ministered He met the physical needs of people (not for all) in order to get to the deeper issue, their slavery to sin. He also used the social issue to teach them the Word of God (He is the Word so He taught Himself, basically). If you deal with the social issue only then you really have not helped anyone out in the long run because the problem of sin has not been dealt with.
You wrote “To me, the bottom line has nothing to do with whether someone believes in Jesus or any other alleged deity. It is whether that person is intelligent, sensitive, kind and decent–and acts on those impulses.”
Mankind is inherently wicked, born into sin. You do not have to teach a child to lie, you have to teach him not to do it, or steal etc. Even when a non Christian does good works the motives are still impure because the heart is, God must change the heart first and then the good works will have value because they will lead to the proclamation of the Gospel (Good News, man can be set free from his slavery to sin), and people will have a chance to be set free.
You wrote “Keep in mind that Christianity is all about instilling the fear of a capricious and vicious father figure and his ultimate punishment, and subsequent rescue from him by an asexual big brother who suffered more, yet is also that same father.”
My friend, Christianity is about setting people free from their slavery to sin, something that nothing else in this world can do, not religion, mode of ethics, etc. because they do not change the heart/mind. Through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to Him God changes your mind and sets you free from slavery to sin, you now have the ability to say no to sin every single moment of every single day!!! Get your facts straight. If you would study the Bible instead of what others say about the Bible then you might know this.
Erik, I fear that Erich and Dan are being rather naive here in their approach to language, meaning, and textual analysis. (Note that "fear" in the previous sentence conveys no emotion other than a slight regret mingled with disapproval.)
You say:
I'm curious as to how you know this to be true. Are you suggesting that a human infant is capable of intentionally committing a wicked act? I agree that children have to be socialized, but I see no reason to label them as inherently evil. In fact, I see a good reason not to, because parents who interpret age appropriate-behavior as intentional wickedness may be more prone to child abuse.
What about those of us not enslaved by sin? One needs to believe in the Christian Bible to be a sinner. Jews, Hindus, Atheists, Shintos, Buddhists, etc have no fear of hell in the afterlife. Nothing to need saving from.
You wrote “I’m curious as to how you know this to be true.”
If I say the Bible says so then that will probably not be enough for you. As I mentioned earlier, you do not have to teach a child how to lie, you have to teach them not to lie. You do not have to teach children to steal, you have to teach them not to steal. The desire to sin is inborn no matter where you are born or grow up. Why do we have laws? Because there is appropriate and inappropriate behavior. We as people know how to act inappropriately but we must be taught how to act appropriately.
You wrote “What about those of us not enslaved by sin?”
Everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. You want to say that you have never lied, stolen, had sexual thoughts about a person who was not your spouse, hated someone etc.? I do not believe that for one moment. You say that you do not believe in sin, so why not murder someone? Why not steal from people’s homes? You see that everyone believes in sin whether admitted or not! Again, you do not have to believe that it is cold in Siberia in the winter time but that does not change the facts!!!
Murder, perjury, and theft are anti-social behaviors. They are avoided and punished by all social species. White lies, sexual thoughts, and resentment toward oppressors are pro-social behaviors, rewarded by feedback from others in all social species. That the Bible apparently considers both of these groups of behavior sinful is a sign of the backwardness of the thinking of the many authors and editors of that tome.
I do not believe in sin. I understand productive and destructive behaviors among members of social species. Many actions that the Bible declares to be sins were proscribed in writings from many centuries earlier than Moses, who supposedly lived many centuries before the Torah was first anthologized, but after the pyramids were already old.
Man (in the gender-neutral sense) is not inherently sinful, he is inherently selfish. It takes a village to teach him to coexist with a village. Those who adapt will thrive.
I do not believe in sin, since sin is an affront to a God who a priori knows every action of everyone. How can he possibly be offended? In a deterministic world view, our every action was pre-ordained, an inevitable result of God's own first action. A free-will point of view implies that God is not all-knowing. Can't have that. Well, his non-existence helps me with that one.
Actually, Erik, it can take years of training before a kid is even ready to knock over a convenience store. As for more complex jobs like robbing future generations in order to finance an illegal war, that takes an advanced degree in Reagonomics and neo-conservative ethics.
Seriously, Erik, you might want to brush up on child development, as well as a number of other topics. From the point of view of a small baby, objects simply occur, and the baby's developmental task is to grasp and investigate them. The concepts of "stealing", and "not stealing" only arise when the child learns that he is a "me", separate from other "me's". She learns that others have a concept of "mine" that is felt as passionately as her own concept of "mine." So while I guess you could characterize an infant's drive to grasp interesting objects as "knowing how to steal," I don't think it's particularly helpful. Also consider that as soon as they are able, children love to play games that involve sharing and reciprocity. Soon after they learn to reliably grasp and manipulate objects, they start offering objects to caregivers to hear the response, "Oh, you're sharing your toy with me. Thank you very much!" Then the caregiver might mime some action with the toy, and hand it back to the baby with some additional comment. The baby imitates the caregiver's action with the toy, and offers it again, and so on. Usually the caregiver tires of this before the baby.