Once in a while, I tune into KJSL, a St. Louis Christian talk radio station. I do this as part of a conscious effort to make myself listen to people with views that are dramatically different from my own. Perhaps I will understand those views better if I take the time to listen more.
While I was driving last week, the station featured a show called “News and Views,” hosted by a man named “Dr. Larry Bates.” The host repeatedly painted the future of the US as bleak, thanks to irresponsible financial policies by the federal government. Because I have some sympathy with that general conclusion, I continued to listen. It turned out that Bates was predicting the imminent financial collapse of the United States. Although I doubted that conclusion, I continued to listen.
Bates then indicated that he is also a big proponent of religious “End Times.” In short, he believes that Jesus will soon be returning to Earth in order to sort things out. I have no sympathy for this religious view. In fact, I find End Times beliefs to be irresponsible and destructive for the numerous reasons. For example, I do not hold the Bible to be inerrant. Based on my study of the Bible, although it offers some good stories and some reasonable moral instruction, it is also rife with bad advice, contradictions and senseless violence.
“Dr. Larry Bates” wears many hats. He claims to be an economist, publisher, editor, former member of the Tennessee House of Representatives, former bank CEO and a “nationally recognized expert on political systems and the Federal Reserve.” Bates is also the President of First American Monetary Consultants, Inc. (FAMC), an organization that allegedly does “economic and market forecasting, in addition to offering a wide variety of other End Times services. “News and Views” is a syndicated radio show, available dozens of radio stations across the U.S. Larry Bates is thus well known in some circles.
After listening to Bates for only a few minutes, I learned that the United States needs to immediately and mercilessly bomb Iran because of what “those people” have done to “support terrorism.” I also learned that we need to support Israel without question, based upon what the Bible says. I persevered to the end of the show, saddened by and frustrated with the flimsy manner in which Bates attempted to support his conclusions.
At the end of the show, it was announced that Bates was going to be featured at a half-day conference in St. Louis, I took the bait. I thought it would be interesting to better understand the basis for the views of End Times (both economic End Times and religious End Times) proponents. The conference was called “Perilous Times: Significant End Time Events.” I paid $20 and showed up at the Crystal Ballroom of the Renaissance St. Louis Grand and Suites Hotel in downtown St. Louis. Here’s my ticket:
At the registration desk, I received a folder full of information. One of the pamphlets advised me that legalized gay marriage is a major obstacle to democracy:
When the US Supreme Court ruled in Lawrence v. Texas last year that sodomy is a constitutional ‘right,’ the director of the lambda legal fund-a radical homosexual-agenda of pressure group-gleefully explained that this marks the beginning of the end to traditional marriage.
Another pamphlet advised that the United States is officially a Judeo-Christian nation. It quoted William Penn: “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” This pamphlet, printed by FAMC, “proves” that the United States is a Christian nation based upon the fact that the Constitutions of many of the states mention “God,” or “the Creator.” As though non-Christian religions don’t believe in a “God” or a “Creator.”
There were numerous products displayed and advertised at the conference. These products are the sorts of things you’ll need to have if you are going to be prepared for the economic and religious End Times. If you want to prevent cancer, you need to load up on Glutathione. The pamphlet says “your life depends on Glutathione.” To buy it, contact FAMC, according to the pamphlet.
What if you just want to make sure that you have access to “the most universal antibiotic” known to man, colloidal silver? It’s a “tasteless, odorless, non-toxic, purer, natural substance consisting of submicroscopic clusters of silver particles suspended by a tiny electric charge placed on each particle.” According to the pamphlet, you drink it. It kills all those pesky pathogens and protects all your good cells. According to the pamphlet, it is useful for treating allergies, boils, herpes, stomach flu, lime disease, gonorrhea, bladder irritations and chickenpox. The list goes on and on. Colloidal silver can be used vaginally, anally or dropped into the eyes.” You can even make your own colloidal silver out of silver wire, using the $189 generator you can buy from FAMC.
Another pamphlet advised me of my right to participate in jury nullification whenever anyone is being prosecuted for a gun crime. That is because “corrupted, anti-gun prosecutors and judges are common.” This information is distributed by the Fully Informed Jury Association.
After the economic collapse, you’ll need to make better use of all that expensive gasoline that all of us are going to need. Therefore, make sure you buy the “Power Plus Mpg” additive. Using this Power Plus, you can save 25 to $.50 per gallon. During his talk (which I’ll discuss in detail further down), Larry Bates bragged that his 5 mpg SUV improved its mileage 50% (to 7.5 mpg) after he started using this Power Plus. Those attending the conference were even invited to sign up as Power Plus distributors.
Additional Pamphlets were available advising how to support efforts to find those “30,000 POWs [who] were known to be behind alive after WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf and War on Terror.” There was also a table full of conservative-message bumper stickers.
The nice old fellow minding that table offered me a chance to take any one of those bumper stickers for free. I really struggled to find anything that didn’t offend my politics (maybe I am a liberal). After searching for a full minute, I picked up Smoke – Choke – Stroke – Croak.
I wasn’t really at the conference to dwell on the End Times products, however. I was there to listen to “Dr. Larry Bates,” just like the 200 other people who attended. Although the crowd included a handful of young adults, most of those attending were in their 60s or 70s. As is often the case with groups of conservative Christians, this was an extremely polite and orderly group. People held doors for each other and took time to exchange pleasantries.
Dr. Larry Bates introduced himself and then introduced a local preacher who opened the meeting with a prayer. Almost everyone bowed their heads respectfully. Then it was time to offer a few door prizes. The winners had a choice of two books: The Coming Financial Wipeout or America’s Christian Heritage.
Then it was time for four-hours of lecture. Bates bemoaned the lack of pastors in the audience. He complained that too many church leaders were “eating the sheep rather than feeding the sheep.” He asked for a show of hands of those who believe that we were in the last days, and perhaps a third of the audience raised their hand. When he asked whether we were in the very last days, 15% raised their hands.
Bates informed the audience that their job was to “raise up wisdom.” This has to be done by taking back the media, he explained, although “Fox news is one of our best news channels.”
He explained that the next election is the most important one ever. It will be about “class warfare.” The election whether we’ll have less government and bigger government. It’s between monopolistic versus competitive capitalism. Although the Republicans are imperfect, according to a distressed Bates, the only real choice in this upcoming election is Republican. More on this further down.
The United States is under attack by economic and political elitists who want to keep the middle class trapped as pawns and serfs in this elitist version of a caste system. These are desperate times, because “There are only two countries in the entire world where the middle class runs the government or has the opportunity to run the government: the United States and Israel.”
The elitists are “One World Socialists” according to Bates. They want to level everyone out to make everyone equally poor, except for themselves. A repeated target of Bates was the Federal Reserve, which “only looks federal and has no reserves.” Bates could barely contain his scorn for the Federal Reserve, which, he repeatedly emphasized, was totally owned by private bankers.
Bates is highly suspicious of George W. Bush’s “New World order.” It is a conspiracy against the people of the United States, and it amounts to “one world socialism,” an attempt to make everyone poor except for an elite ruling class. He exhorted that the creation of the Federal Reserve was a conspiracy to rob the American middle class. The Federal Reserve is a “criminal syndicate.” According to Bates, the head of the Federal Reserve is more powerful than the president of the United States. In all earnestness, he told the crowd that the 1938 panic-provoking radio adaptation of “War of the Worlds” was not entertainment. It was a test by the government elite to see if the federal government could maintain control over the New World Order.
What are the elitists trying to do? They are trying to create a North American Union. They want to merge the United States, Mexico and Canada and to destroy the sovereignty of the United States. That’s why we have a lax immigration policy, he warned. What’s the solution? “Build a fence and keep them out.” If the rate of immigration exceeds your rate of assimilation, “you lose your country.” Throughout his talk, Bates insinuated that the impending economic collapse will coincide with the religious Second Coming.
The Democrats are the party of big government, militant homosexual “rights and domination.” The Democrats are Socialists, from the party of Karl Marx, where the government owns and controls everything, including all means of distribution and production. “Liberals hate property rights.” Bates drew numerous parallels to the Soviet Union, where people had to wait in long lines for everything. That’s what the Democrats would bring us, he urged.
He warned that you can’t overlook the Republicans just because are imperfect. He understands that “Jesus Christ is not on the ballot.” If you hurt the Republicans, “you hurt yourself.” “Dingy Harry Reid “is corrupt and Nancy Pelosi is “a disaster.” Whenever you have a strong economy, you’ve got limited government. “It’s that simple.” Are there any litmus test for politicians? Absolutely. Don’t vote for anybody who believes in any right to abortion. “Nothing tells you more about politicians that sanctity of life. If they don’t get this right, they get nothing right.”
What else did he think about some the candidates? There was no holding back. Hillary Clinton shouldn’t be president because God has a natural order for things. Bates paused to caution the audience, “I’m not a chauvinist.” Then he forged on: “God is the head of man and man is the head of women. A two-headed family is a freak.” He offered this evidence of his position: Indonesia is struggling because it is a matriarchy. To allow women to run the country is to violate God’s order. God says there should not be a woman president. It is as aberrant as “letting children run a household.”
According to Bates, “Barack Hussein Obama” (he repeated this full name several times) is a radical muslim who was educated in a radical muslim school. His Church is full of people who, according to Bates, hate white people. [For those who are concerned about Obama based on Bates’ outrageous claims, check out this and this].
Are there some good Republican candidates? You bet, according to Bates. For instance, Tom Tancredo got it right when he recently got tough with Muslims. Bates described it like this: “if you use a nuclear device in the United States, then we will use a nuke to take out Mecca and Medina . . . [applause] . . . Brutal force is the only thing these birds understand.” Upon hearing and seeing this, I was stunned. Though I tried, I couldn’t recall the particular verse of the Bible where Jesus said, “If someone shits on you, shit on them.”
But Bates wasn’t done with the Muslims. According to Bates, the goal of Islam is “world domination under sharia law.” There are three types of followers of Islam, according to Bates. Type 1 is a revolutionary who sets off bombs. These people are terrorists. The second type is an evolutionary follower, distributing propaganda and prolifically “breeding.” The third type is a westernized Muslim who probably hasn’t even read the Koran. Nonetheless, those westernized Muslims will fall right in line, especially when those other Muslims threaten to cut off their heads or attack members of their families. The Koran “tells you “to kill and who to kill,” according to Bates. It tells you to kill Christians and Jews.
According to Bates, Sam Brownback of Kansas is misguided (too liberal) on immigration, perhaps because of his Catholic conversion. He doesn’t understand that we’ve simply got to keep those immigrants out.
What are some of the big issues of the upcoming election? National health insurance is a big issue. If we have national health insurance, it will “ruin the country. The country ends when we enact national health insurance.” What’s the evidence for this dramatic prediction? Tennessee has free government medical care, yet (according to Bates) nobody signs up for it. Therefore, there’s no need for national health insurance. Under national health insurance, Bill Clinton would have had to wait six weeks to get an appointment and six months to get his necessary surgery. National health insurance involves the “efficiency of the post office and the compassion of the IRS.” Furthermore, it will “drive the cost of health care way up.” National healthcare will bankrupt the country: “The government that can give you everything you want must, by definition, take everything you’ve got.”
Bates warns that people need to quit concerning themselves with the healthcare establishment. In fact, he’s suspicious of the healthcare system. People need to focus on preventing disease rather than treating it. They need a laugh more. “Laughter is better medicine.” People would “rather be victims-our diseases are other people’s faults.” People need to take responsibility for their own good health, said Bates, who looks to be a few pounds overweight. It all starts “with what you put in your body.” Bates then spent a serious chunk of time touting the healthcare products displayed on the tables in the lobby.
Bates explained that churches will need to get more into the healthcare business, because they have more to offer than the healthcare establishment. Churches have the courage to “tell the bums that they are bums” (I wondered what the bum lobby would think of this statement.
We have too much Blue Cross and Blue Shield. We depend too much on man and not enough on God. We’ve replaced God on the throne with government on the throne. We look to Jehovah government instead of God.
Bates announced that if anyone gets sick, it’s that person’s own fault. There are plenty of things you can do so that you don’t get sick, according to Bates. You can take regular doses of that colloidal silver I first learned about from the handouts. He announced that colloidal silver kills all bacteria. Someone in the back of the room then announced “Amen!” Gee, Larry, I wondered. Are you sure you want to kill all the bacteria in your body, including the beneficial bacteria that reside in your gut? He marched on, undeterred. Bates claims that he puts silver in his milk to keep it from spoiling. It will never spoil as long as you put silver in your carton of milk. He urged the audience to buy the colloidal silver generating kit, so they can make their own colloidal silver. He warned the audience that the FDA does not want people to know about the amazing healing powers of silver. The FDA doesn’t want the competition—it would put some big pharmaceutical companies out of business. In fact, the FDA is about to try to outlaw the use of silver as a medicine. Modern pharmaceuticals are “witchcraft.”
What else can you do to stay healthy? If you’ve got cancer, make sure you consider getting vitamin C injections. These have been phenomenally successful, according to Bates. This new knowledge about the healing powers of vitamin C reminded him that the Bible predicted “God’s plan of healing.” This kind of “new important knowledge” is another sign of “the last days.” We need to be the “salt” (disinfectant of the evil people) and the “light” (spreading wisdom). Bates warned that many believers are going to have to do God’s work on their own because churches “have been corrupted by world government.”
What would you do if you’re laid-off in the impending economic collapse? You need to get a trade. You need to do something with your hands, such as plumbing or electrical work. “The time will come when you have to barter your skills for someone else’s skills.” The End Times are apparently not going to be pretty.
The last section of the presentation was an indictment of US monetary policy. Bates pointed out that the United States now has $25 trillion in domestic debt which must be serviced, whereas the M2 money supply is only $7 trillion. This sets the stage for the economic End Times. The government can either go into default work or print fake money to dilute real wealth. He warns that the U.S. is busy printing lots of fake money. That’s what the recent $300 billion injection of “new money” was. It was used to allegedly stabilize the stock market. He warns that it would take a 7.1% added payroll tax to service our current debt, an amount that would break the backs of most families. Bates sees a massive restructuring of the social security system forthcoming, including raised taxes and reduced benefits, as well as means tests.
What can we do about the impending economic collapse? One thing is that we can make sure that no one takes away our guns, said Bates.
There will be no total economic collapse until there is total gun control. The tyrants don’t want to deal with an armed populace. The enemies of liberty hate your guns. The Second Amendment protects the First Amendment.
Here’s what else you can do, according to Bates. Elect people who will build fences to keep out the immigrants. Hone your communications skills, because the upcoming wars will be wars of world views. According to the Bible, “when you see the enemy, you’ll need to warn the city.”
As far as protecting your assets, Bates gives this advice: Stay away from “Loanership” assets, such as Money Market funds, T-bills and CD’s. They are “pieces of paper: IOU’s. Beware of real estate, in this age when the government is taxing it heavily and abusing eminent domain. Instead, load up on precious metals, such as gold and silver coins. This is especially important, given that the U.S. has long been off the gold standard, which has invited the dollar’s slide versus most currencies. He claims that you should not get gold or silver bullion because federal law gives the government the right to confiscate these in times of economic emergency.
Who’s going to buy your precious metal coins in the time of economic collapse? Bates is convincing to me when he answers that question with another question: “Who is going to buy your paper dollars?” He characterizes gold and silver as “money.” Everything else is only “credit.”
So Bates’ program includes both saving and eating silver! Where are you going to get all of those precious metals? From a reputable company like FAMC, of course. Bates tells you to buy precious coins and his company is happy to sell them to you. He told the crowd that precious metal coins are “real money” and that they will be exchangeable until the absolute end of time. Didn’t the Bible say that people will throw their gold and silver into the street? Absolutely, says Bates. But that will be toward the end, when we’ll see a “large scale transfer of wealth from the wicked to the righteous.” It’s all in the Bible, according to Bates. Up until those End Times, then, rely on precious metals, says Bates, citing Ezekiel 7:19 (“Precious metals very valuable until the time that God’s wrath is poured out”) and Haggai 2:6-9 (End time transfer of wealth using precious metals”).
Bates is not embarrassed about having money. “God doesn’t mind if you have nice things.” You should use and enjoy your money, he stresses. Have as much of it as you need, even if you use it to buy expensive houses, cars and vacations. No problem. It’s only the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. His literature cites Proverbs 28:20 (“Eager to get rich; will not go unpunished”), Ecclesiastes 2:26 (“One who pleases Him receives wealth”) and Genesis 2:11-12 (“God put gold in the earth for a reason”).
—
It’s hard to know how to sum up this Perilous Times Conference. The lessons taught by Bates are laced with radical conservative values, that is true. His characterizations of both Republicans and Democrats are cartoonish. His xenophobia and racism (especially toward women and people from the Middle East) are intense. His plan to capitalize upon the fears he drums up, both economic and religious, is predictable and obvious.
Bates has a ready and willing audience, because his targets are big and fat. Anyone with energy and creativity can vigorously hack away at pharmaceutical companies, drug companies, bankers, politicians and bureaucrats. If you can convince your audience that it might lose much of what it has worked for, you could readily stir up their deep fears about out-groups such as gays, women, atheists and immigrants.
Bates is playing a game that is played by many people who have some legitimate credentials. During the final portion of this conference Bates sometimes sounded like someone who was giving some reasonable economic advice based on sophisticated training. He sometimes spoke as person who relied on his training and experience in economics and banking. I am not an economist or a banker, and I have not read nearly enough to know the extent to which Bates is giving decent economic advice, though what I have read about United States fiscal policy also concerns me greatly. I’ve seen similar admonitions regarding the United States fiscal policy on “liberal” shows such as Bill Moyers. I think it is this part of the show that gives Bates the foot in the door with his audience.
Nonetheless, it is a standard trick to parlay one’s legitimate credentials far beyond the realm of one’s expertise. When Bates talks with ultra-assurance of the alleged Second Coming of Christ or when he touts the medical quackery he is so happy to peddle, he looks both naïve and devious. Shame on his audience members, though, if they really step up to buy that little bottle of fuel additive that will allegedly make their humongous SUVs get 50% better gas mileage. Shame on the people who think that the FDA is trying to outlaw silver potions because drinkable silver is so incredibly good that it would put pharmaceutical companies out of business. Shame on people who trust people who sell snake oil.
I couldn’t help but conclude that there is much in common among the sorts of people that listen to Bates and the sorts of people with whom I more commonly associate. We are all worried about our corrupt government, our poisoned food and water, our shortsighted fiscal policies, our many failing schools, our own deaths, about numerous people illegally pouring over our borders, about the many people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol and about a media with an agenda secretly dictated by those who hold disproportionate power. Many Believers and non-Believers are downright suspicious of organized religions. We differ profoundly, however, in the ways in which we would address these threats. What Bates offers is a bomb-shelter mentality. He relentlessly warns his audience of the need to hunker down and protect one’s own and let everyone else be damned.
As I left Perilous Times Conference, I wondered whether it would be an impossible task to convince the people in that audience to put down their Bibles and roll up their sleeves when they discuss politics. I wondered whether these people would ever be willing to open their minds to diverse ideas from people who might look and act differently than they do. I wondered whether Bates’ fans would ever be willing to look at their own cherished ideas as skeptically as they look at the ideas of others. I wondered whether they would ever be capable of pretending, even for a moment, that they were not under attack by all of those people of the world who they don’t know well. I wondered whether they could ever be convinced to consider that strangers are, for the most part, people with hopes, dreams and fears much like their own.
After mega-doses of Larry Bates, is it even possible for people to consider that there is a vast commonality all people share and that this could really be a starting point for a functional world view, one that is not based on paranoia?
Well, well grumpy pilgrim…I offered proof, but you just blabber how equal I am with radical Islam when you offer no proof. The Arab world had many great inventions and thrived in trade until, radical islam came along and oppressed women and the rich culture that was once beautiful.
Here is some more proof about radical islam. At least in America and the rest of the free world you can name your Teddy Bear "Muhammed". Boy I hope I do not get death threats from these muslim clerics that wanted to punish a teacher that let the classroom name the bear.
It's people like grumpy pilgrim who probably couldn't live under "sharia law", but most Christians could. Grumpy, try living in muslim countries who follow that style of law and tell me I'm steroetyping. I have ate with Saudi muslims, my sister taught a Saudi man College math, I have schooled with Arabs and most like freedom from an oppressive religion sir!
Wake up people!!
Rafe's previous comment provides all the "proof" he demands in his second comment: he uses the terms "Muslim world" and "radical Islam" interchangeably, thus equating all Muslims with radicalism. Muslim extremists are a tiny, tiny percentage of the "Muslim world," just as the Ku Klux Klan is a tiny, tiny percentage of the Christian world.
Rafe goes on to mention this week's well-publicized example of Muslim extremism: a grade school teacher convicted of blasphemy for allowing her class to name a teddy bear, "Mohammed." Again, I will point out that Christianity provides many examples of much more bloody persecution: the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, the Crusades, etc. The problem is not "radical Islam," the problem is religious intolerance, whether by Christians, Muslims, Hindus or others. Even today there is considerable Christian radicalism, but people in the western world don't always recognize it. The Branch Davidians in Waco, TX. The Mormon polygamists in southern Utah. The Bushites in the White House (who are responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Iraq). Just google the word "dominionism" and you'll find still more examples.
Rafe also talks about living under sharia law, but Christian law can be just as brutal: e.g., stoning children to death for disobeying their parents, stoning women to death for having pre-marital sex, burning people at the stake for "heresy," etc. Remember, it was Christians who condemned Galileo to lifetime house arrest for suggesting that the sun, not the earth, was the center of our solar system. I shudder to think what America might become if fundamentalist Christians were to get any more political power than they have already — forced prayer in schools, corporal punishment, laws against rape and incest victims aborting their fetuses, etc. And let us never forget how eagerly Bush and his Christian pals have embraced the tools of torture, imprisonment, misleading propaganda, etc., to advance their political agenda. They've created their own little version of the Inquisition right here in the 21st century.
Anyway, back to Rafe's comment, we all need to carefully avoid branding entire (religious) populations by the deeds of a few radicals who cloak themselves in religion to justify their pursuit of power. Whether they call themselves Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, or something else, they are oppressive sociopaths and should be treated as such.
I understood Rafe's comment as criticism of radical Islam, not of Islam?
projektleiterin writes: "I understood Rafe’s comment as criticism of radical Islam, not of Islam?"
I'll quote Rafe directly: "That is why our freedom is important; to filter and test all things, to seek the truth, so that the truth will set you free. Something the Muslim world doesn’t understand.
Fact, most problems in the world have something to do with radical Islam…."
Rafe made a sweeping (and absurd) generalization about "the Muslim world," and in the very next sentence asserted that "most of the problems in the world have something to do with radical Islam." Nowhere in either of Rafe's comments does Rafe define "radical Islam," nor distinguish it from "the Muslim world." To the contrary, by using the two expressions in back-to-back sentences, without ever distinguishing them, Rafe creates the impression that "the Muslim world" and "radical Islam" can be used interchangeably.
In any case, we should not speculate, but, instead, ask Rafe to define "radical Islam" and explain how it differs from Rafe's definition of "the Muslim world."
Wow grumpy, do you really think the Spanish (Catholic) Inquisition, the Branch Davidians or a small sect of Mormons are the true Christian Church or is it you have a bias against Christianity? One must be honest why they support their views. I'm not apologizing for Christian wrongdoings and am not ashamed of being a Messianic believer. If you have a problem with Christians and Jews take it up with G-d!
How could I forget, about the Jews, who follow Torah and the early Christian church who suffered on crosses, stakes and eaten by starved lions to entertain Romans. We could do this all day long…but we live in the now grumpy, remember 911? Oh yeah, that was Bush's fault. Global warming…Bush's fault. Worlds' opinion of the United States…Bush's fault.
Stubbed my toe…Bush's fault.
I am sure thankful for the country I live in, because our founding, slave owning fathers used Judeo-Christian tenets to give us our Constitution. Christian men died to free slaves, free people from Nazism, free people from Communism and will free people from Islam. Hallelujah!
Ok, grumpy, just say it, "q.e.d." 😀
Rafe asks, "…do you really think the Spanish (Catholic) Inquisition, the Branch Davidians or a small sect of Mormons are the true Christian Church…?"
Rafe's question can only be answered with another question: upon what basis are we to *objectively* identify "the true Christian Church?" Given that the Spanish Inquisition lasted for more than 350 years, that the Branch Davidians martyred themselves for their beliefs, and that the Mormon church has withstood more than a century of persecution, upon what basis are we to declare none of them to represent "the true Christian Church?"
Regardless of the answer to that tangential question, my point is that a lot of bad things have been done in the name of Christianity, just as a lot of bad things have been done in the name of Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, etc. Indeed, I'll ask the same question about Islam that Rafe asked about Christianity: if the Spanish Inquisition does not represent "true" Christianity, then why should we believe Rafe's assertion that the 9/11 attack by al Qaeda does represent true Islam?
As regards Rafe's attempted defense of Bush, Rafe has conspicuously failed to address the fact that Bush and his Christian pals not only *did* sanction torture, imprisonment, misleading propaganda, illegal wiretaps, etc., but they continue to try to defend these blatantly immoral actions. If a foreign government were to treat captive Americans the way Bush has treated his "enemy combatants," Americans would be screaming for military action. But when Bush and his Christian pals do it, self-described "Messianic believers" (like Rafe) jump to defend it. If Rafe considers him(her?)self to be a member of the "true Christian Church," yet nevertheless approves of immoral behavior, then Rafe has obviously proven my point: the problem is not "radical Islam," the problem is extremists (like bin Laden, Bush, Rafe, etc.) who cloak themselves in religion to try to justify their pursuit of power, even if that pursuit includes the use of blatantly immoral deeds — deeds that not only violate domestic and international law, but also the very same religious principles they claim to uphold. It is naked hypocrisy.
Indeed, to anyone outside Rafe's cult of "Messianic believers," Rafe's desire to "free people from Islam" displays the exact same intolerance and religious persecution that Rafe equates with "radical Islam." Notice, in particular, that Rafe wants to "free people from Islam" and not from *radical* Islam — again equating these two obviously different belief systems. To people like Rafe (people blind to their own radical religious bigotry), believers of other religions are *all* extremists to be conquered, just as believers in slavery, Nazism and communism were conquered. Perhaps this is why Rafe has such irrational beliefs about Muslims: being unaware of his/her own religious bigotry, Rafe, instead, pins this flaw on Muslims — declaring them all to be supporters of "radical Islam." How convenient for Rafe that Muslims are all radicals, while even Messianic Christians are not.
I will close by, once again, pointing out that the problem is not "radical Islam," the problem is religious intolerance — a distinction that I am now thankful to Rafe for so clearly illustrating.
Grumpypilgrim, Let me take a stab at your 'answer with a question'
You asked,"Upon what basis are we to *objectively* identify “the true Christian Church?”
On the basis of the Bible. Men will interpret the Scriptures to carry out their evil deeds, but at the end of the day, the Hebrew Srcriptures will always come out on top with the clear and ethical way to proceed. History proves that the Bible can end slavery, nazism, or Bushism. Men are most definitely screwed up, but the Hebrew Scriptures has the power to change lives and communities for the good.
I do question the Koran, because I don't see the good they bring to the world at this time.
Samar:
Sorry, but reading your quote I have the same feeling I would get watching a train wreck about to happen, knowing how some people around here are going to rudely awaken you to the nature of some of the "moral lessons" of the bible especially the old testament.
This site illustrates Bible stories with Legos, but be careful, it uses all the actual stories so some scenes are nor appropriate for family viewing.
Vicki: That Lego site is quite elaborate. They even detail the death and misery of the great Flood: http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/the_floo…
Here are a few things for Samar to review while he comforts himself with the idea that the Hebrew Scriptures are the perfect guide to clear and ethical living:
http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=732 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1667 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=846 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1550
Samar: "the Bible can end slavery"? Have you read Exodus 21? That's the second of the 2 tablets Moses brought down from the mountain. Note the rules about proper care of slaves.
The Koran pays as much or more homage to the Hebrew scripture than does the Christian testament. Islam stayed more true to the middle-Eastern morality of the Old Testament then does Europeanized Christianity.
Moral people in a culture that can afford to end slavery are what ends slavery. That some of these believe in the Bible is beside the point.
For once, Vicki and I are in total agreement: Samar needs to more carefully read the Bible. I nearly laughed out loud when Samar suggested, "…the Hebrew Srcriptures will always come out on top with the clear and ethical way to proceed." If only that were even remotely true! Unfortunately, the OT is full of contradictions, not to mention God's approval of things like rape, slavery, incest, infanticide, public stoning, murder…the list goes on. Almost anything you can name that we consider immoral or criminal today was either approved of, or committed by, the god of the OT.
Samar should also read the Koran, because, as Dan rightly points out, the Koran is indeed more true to the OT than is modern Christianity.
One other comment I want to add about this topic is that when I said, "the problem is religious intolerance," I should have said that our inquiry should begin with religious intolerance but not end there. Obviously, many factors contribute to Islamic-inspired (or, more broadly, religious-inspired) violence. (Notice I prefer the phrase "religious-inspired violence" to the phrase "radical Islam," because I don't think anyone agrees on what the latter phrase means.) If we dig into the roots of Islamic-inspired violence, we will find all sorts of issues that conveniently escape mention in western media. Issues such as the fact that the western world can probably never "win" the so-called "war on terrorism" until it stops funding *both sides* of the war. At least some (probably most) of the money that pays for Islamic terrorism against the West comes from oil profits supplied by the West. As long as the West keeps pumping trainloads of money into unstable Mid-East countries, some of that money will likely reach the hands of violent people. Why else do we find Islamic-inspired terrorism a serious problem just fifty years after oil was discovered in the Mid-East, even though Islam has existed for a dozen centuries?
Likewise, the existence of theocracies is almost certainly another cause of religious-inspired terrorism. When we look around our world for the worst trouble spots — Sudan, Israel, Kashmir, Indonesia, Northern Ireland, Iran, Afganistan, etc. — we almost aways find a theocracy; i.e., state-sanctioned religious intolerance. Someday, perhaps far in the future of our species, we will conclude that theocracies just don't work and that separation of church and state is a necessary condition for a peaceful world, but we're just not there yet. Even in America, most of the calls for Bush to project violence around the world have come from fundamentalist Christians. Bush's invasion of Iraq, fundie pastor John Hagee's call for Bush to pre-emptively bomb Iran and fundie pastor Pat Robertson's call for the assassination of Hugh Chavez are some of the examples that come to mind. Simply put: theocracies appear to be inherently dangerous, unworkable political systems that should be abolished, regardless of which religion they claim allegiance to — Islam, Christianity, Hindi, Judaism or other.
Anyway, my ultimate point here is that no religion yet invented has succeeded in setting clear, sensible moral rules. To the contrary, religion merely provides rules that are either: (a) codified versions of long-standing truths that need no religious support, or (b) arbitrary rules that have little relationship with common sense. We don't need religion to tell us that murder and thievery should be crimes, while rules against things such abortion and stem cell research are plainly arbitrary and nonsensical. Religion merely transfers to some minority-appointed religious authority a decision that rightfully belongs either to individuals or to the broader society.
Vicki, Dan, and G.Pilgrim.
You, like most Christians are woefully, and I do mean woefully ignorant of the Hebrew Scriptures. You all have a sunday school, elementary, understanding of what the Torah is. You gloss over the deeper meanings and claim authority of the very book you are so ignorant of, like most Christians.
You claim man's common sense is the source of moral code. Give me a break. American native culture condoned thievery from other tribes. Are your truths more true than the native American truths? Oh, I get it, your intellectually more superior than the Americna natives were.
God has laid out the moral code. Which code offends you so? I will sincerely try and answer any contradiction you find in the Torah. The Jewish people have maintained the Oracles of Yahweh, which was given to them for safe keeping. They have done a wonderful job. Shalom.
Well I think it at this point, it is unfair that grumpy pilgrim and the other "infidels", (not a Christian word), never show their cards. What do you believe? The manifesto to what they right clearly shows they do not know the Hebrew Scriptures or the Koran.
So, I will ask, Why is Islam the "sacred-cow"? If someone like Salman Rushie writes a cartoon, book or says something that challenges Islam, it is evident that Islam has roots of anger and hate, not tolerance. Practising Muslems in America do not speak out, because they're families back home will suffer persecution.
If you call my G-d (Yahweh)or His Son (Yeshua) a bad name or say that He is contradictive to His word and is unfair and hateful, you do not see crazies in the street calling for your heads! That is on you and you will have to answer to your creator.
Grumpy writes,"Someday, perhaps far in the future of our species, we will conclude that theocracies just don’t work and that separation of church and state is a necessary condition for a peaceful world"; Question, if you believe in evolution then you should not have a problem with any "species" of mankind killing one another, because the strong survives and adapts to carry on those precious genes. I know what you'll say, it is by reason that we do not kill, rape, steel, lie, dishonor your mother and father and create idols, love the Lord with your whole heart, etc…I guess I just don't have enough faith in macro-evolution.
No to religion, but yes to faith in a merciful God who created you all and sent His Son to die for our filthy sinful life so we will have eternal life!
Vicki,
http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/sodom_an…
Is this really true?? Also what he said about them taking his virgin daughters instead of the men?
This is freaking me out! 😀
Proj: For a bit of balance, try the multi-version bible: http://bible.cc/genesis/19-5.htm. My father (who read the bible in Hebrew, Greek, German, and English) told me that this particular "know" that several translations made into "have sex with" actually simply meant, "find out about". After all, mysterious foreigners come in and this guy takes them in and treats them as VIP's. Suspicious, nyet?
But the part about him trading his daughter's virtue for an evening of peace is dead-on. Good behavior with God's seal of approval.
Samar claims that we are out of touch with the "deeper meanings" of the Bible. "Deeper Meanings" is a synonym for "unexpressed ideas" or "deconstructed interpretations".
If, as some narrow-minded Christians maintain, the Bible is literal and perfect, then these unwritten mandates must be ignored for the greater truth.
If, as Jewish and Muslim believers maintain, the Bible is largely a collection of poetic allegory, then multiple interpretations of every line may (nay must) be entertained. Both sides of any issue can be justified by it.
As for my own interpretations, I was raised by the son of an Israeli Temple elder. My father read the Old Testament and the Talmud in Hebrew and the Lutheran texts in German, his twin birth languages. He read the New Testament in Greek and in at least one English version as well. I generally accept his interpretations as more valid than those of people who have only read it in one language. Especially if it is English translation from the Greek version that actually was translated back from the Latin for passages that never existed in Greek before. All English versions have this flaw. See <a rel="nofollow" title="Misquoting Jesus post" href="http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=668"> <a href="http://;http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=668” target=”_blank”>;http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=668
As for "American native culture condoned thievery from other tribes." So does the Bible. What did the Hebrews do to Jericho? Many other examples of righteous taking and slaying and raping are justified by God in the Bible. The same God who nominally forbids this behavior.
Any sociologist can show in detail how morality necessarily evolves to suit environmental conditions. It doesn't come from a book.
Thanks for the link, Dan.
If the part of giving away his virgin daughters is true though, I find it a bit more likely that the men outside were not only interested in getting to know the guests. I mean, even if women were not considered to be equal, handing out your virgin daughters to a bunch of men strikes me as something extremely drastic, not something that you would (or even could) do every day. He would also have to justify his action to his future son-in-laws. I think the only reason he would do so was if there was indeed a real danger to his guests whom he felt obliged to protect as part of the hospitality he had offered them. I assume, in this case his daughters were expected to do their part as the hosts?
Maybe the translation that they wanted sex with the guests is not the correct translation, but I do not assume that they had only been out for a chat. Maybe it was more like a euphemism and the translation was a bit more explicit.
Dan,
The Hebrews were not allowed to take anything from Jericho. So it cannot be compared to a culture of thievery. The deeper meaning to Jericho is the Firstfruits always belong to God. Jericho was the first city (the fruitfruit). Anyway, I understand your points. I understand that men will claim an interpretation and use it to their own gain.
Even though the Scriptures have been used to perpetrate evil, the Torah will always untwist the Scriptures that the Gentiles are so good at twisting. The God of Israel is always for the widow, the poor, and the orphan. The Torah is very clear about that.
To put morality in the hands of 'evolving' humans is a grave error in judgement. Mob rules. Humans without a healthy fear of God are no more than the unmerciful opportunists we witness in nature. Men will pray on the widow, the poor, and the orphan because they are the weakest.
Dan writes, "Many other examples of righteous taking and slaying and raping are justified by God in the Bible. The same God who nominally forbids this behavior". You are horribly wrong, God(Yahweh) punished those who did not follow his instructions. It is impossible for Him to contradict Himself.
Paul (Saul)writes,
2Thessolonian 1:5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
1 Cor 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I will end with this quote, 1 Cor 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned".
It was fun, and I hope you all do not hate me for my earlier sarcasim.
Peace and goodwill, Rafe.
Shorter Rafe: You're wrong, and you will burn in hell for disagreeing with me. Have a nice day!
Samar: I agree that there is value in ancient traditions, especially if the historical context is taken into account. But if to "put morality in the hands of ‘evolving’ humans is a grave error in judgement," does it show much better judgment to leave the interpretation of god's law up to humans? Seems like we're always going to have to go with our best guess of what's the right thing to do, based on a combination of our critical faculties and gut intuition, whether or not we also use an ancient text as a guide.
Vicki,
It would show good judgement, in my opinion, to allow the interpretation of God's laws to be handled by those He gave it too. The Jewish people and those who follow Torah. The Torah is slowly being restrored to the followers of the Jewish Messiah. The original church was Jewish. The greatest evangelist were Jewish (Paul, Peter, James, etc). The gentiles are starting to abandon the traditions of their forefathers and accept their Jewish roots. Sorry, I'm rambling.
I agree, we need to do our best. In a nutshell this is Torah: "Do not do to anyone, what you hate. Now, go learn the rest of Torah." Shalom.
Samar –if you are around– check out the Jewish Ethics project on Facebook. fascinating
Uh oh. Now I have the same feeling I would get watching a train wreck about to happen . . .
Samar – not really following you. Seems like instead of solving the problem I posed – which interpretation of god's law to choose – with another problem: which of god's "chosen people" to choose, so to speak. To me, it's seems rather arbitrary to restrict ourselves from among the various "chosen people" of the Judeo-Christian tradition. There are lots of other ethnic groups who believe they have a special contract with the universe. I once saw a show on PBS about a tribe in the Andes who believe that the world continues to exist because of a certain kind of singing they perform. To me, this is a much more aesthetically pleasing version of "chosen people" myth. I am all for supporting this tribe's right to continue practicing their traditions on their ancestral lands, so the world can continue to exist.