Imagine for a moment that you go into your neighbor’s home one day and discover a large homemade bomb sitting in the middle of his living room. “Don’t touch that.” your neighbor tells you, “If you do, the bomb will explode and our entire block will be destroyed.” How would you react? If you have an ounce of common sense, you would probably think your neighbor was the biggest nutcase you have ever met, and you would probably say something like, “Why in the heck did you build that bomb and put it in the middle of your living room, just waiting to go off and incinerate us and the rest of our families? Then you’d probably call the police and demand that the bomb be removed and your neighbor be arrested.
Now, imagine you go to work and discover a bottle of deadly nerve gas sitting on your disk “Don’t touch that bottle of nerve gas,” your boss tells you, “because, if you break the seal on the bottle you will surely die.” Off to the police you go again, screaming in rage at the wantonly dangerous conditions. “What kind of insane world is this? Are these people all idiots?”
Now, let us consider the Tree of Knowledge that God planted “in the middle of the garden of Eden,” intermingled with other trees “that were pleasing to the eye and good for food” (see Genesis 2:8 through 3:6). God placed no fence or other barrier around the Tree of Knowledge, and filled it with appealing fruit that “was good for food and pleasing to the eye.” He then told Adam, “you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it or touch it you will surely die.”
Should we not ask ourselves, “What was God thinking?” Why did God create the Tree of Knowledge, plant it in the middle of the garden of Eden, fill it with attractive fruit, place no fence around it, give Adam and Eve a desire to gain wisdom, indicate that the tree was a source of wisdom, and then merely tell Adam an Eve not to eat of it or touch it? Didn’t God know that verbal warnings are the least effective type of safety precaution, after: (a) safer design, (b) physical barriers, and (3) effective warning labels? Wasn’t the Tree of Knowledge an open and obvious danger — an accident just waiting to happen?
Moreover, how sufficient was God’s verbal warning? God told Adam and Eve that they would “die” by touching or eating of the Tree of Knowledge, but how could they possibly have understood this warning, given that they had no concept of death?
If you were God, and you wanted to protect Adam and Eve from the Tree of Knowledge, would you have done such an inept job? Indeed, according to Genesis, the Fall of Man appears to have occurred on the very same day that God created Adam and Eve. Parents do more to protect their children from matches than God did to protect Adam and Eve from death. Moreover, God is supposedly omniscient — with infinite awareness, infinite knowledge and infinite insight. How is it possible for an omniscient being to have done such a stunningly incompetent job protecting His children from danger?
Here's a technical legal definition for "attractive nuisance" that fully supports your argument:
Liability under the doctrine of attractive nuisance is based on the negligence of the defendant landowner in failing to exercise reasonable care to warn trespassing children of an unreasonably dangerous condition or instrumentality maintained on his or her premises or in failing to render the condition or instrumentality reasonably safe.
From AMJUR, "Nuisances."
Amazing, isn't it, that God did so little to safeguard His loved ones from the unreasonably dangerous condition of His property, especially given His omniscience? Why was the Tree of Knowledge there in the first place — smack in the middle of His garden — when God knew it was so dangerous? He could have planted that tree anywhere else in the Universe, but He chose to put it right under the noses of Adam and Eve. And why didn't God warn Adam and Eve about the serpent in His garden? God must have known what the serpent would do. It's hard to imagine a human landowner being as negligent and inept as God proved Himself to be in designing and managing the garden of Eden. Well, it was the end of His work week, so maybe God was tired.
What I would really like to know is why Christians who claim the literal truth of the Bible (especially the creation story in Genesis), and who are presumably very knowledgeable about the Bible's contents, never mention things like this. The Bible is loaded with such problems, yet when do we hear about them from the people who should know about them?
Any person who has ever had to deal with the issues of dysfunctional families (families in which there is an alcoholic, drug abuser, physical abuser, etc.) recognizes this behavior instantly. It is the signature of abusive parenting. The parent, powerless to affect his/her own life, takes out frustrations on the only people over whom they actually do have power — the children. But it's not always overt. More often than not it's as described in the Tree of Knowledge story; subtle and insidious. The parent "sets traps" for the children, putting them into situations in which they are guaranteed to fail, guaranteed to "disappoint" the parent. The parent can then demonstrate his/her "love" for the child through punishment.
So why don't religious fundamentalists recognize this for what it is? Because staunch religious fundamentalism is yet another form of dysfunction. So many recovering alcoholics and addicts turn to religion, thereby substituting one addiction for another.
Edgar makes excellent points. Indeed, according to the Bible, God does many things to set His children up for failure. The Ten Commandments, for example, which any Christian will tell you are impossible to live by, and that this is why we all need God's "grace" to "forgive" us for not satisfying them. Moreover, especially in the Old Testament, God is also remarkably cruel with his punishments, yet Christians continue to assert that God has "infinite love" for all of us lowly humans (even while He is raining hellfire down upon us).
It would be interesting to know what percentage of Christians are graduates of 12-step programs, and how that number compares to the percentage in the general population. Many Chrisians certainly grew up with abusive parents, so what better substitute parent could they find than an abusive God who calls His abuse "love?"
Of course, the flip side to this is that many recovering addicts and abuse victims say that religion definitely helped them turn their lives around, so this also deserves to be mentioned.
But, who knows, maybe the reason there are *twelve* step programs today, instead of a more common number like ten, is that there were originally twelve apostles. Can this be a coincidence? What if the Last Supper was actually the world's first AA meeting, and the importance of the number twelve just continued: "Hi, my name is Luke and I'm an alcoholic." "Hi, Luke…." And what if Jesus was their social worker and his resurrection was merely a well-staged intervention: "Hi, I'm Jesus, back from the grave, to tell you to give up your evil habits and worship our cruel (but loving) Father…." I say this all mostly in jest, of course, but I do agree that the reason Christianity appeals to so many addicts and abuse vicitims probably does have something to do with the similarity between their parents' behavior and God's as described in the Bible.
As far as I am concerned; in this matter as well as almost every other aspect of the bible, what it comes down to is that I am being intimidated into believing in a God who supposedly is loving and just, but in his infinite wisdom and ability to know what's to come placed us in danger, threw ridiculous amounts of inconsistency and sin into the world he fathered and at the same time gave us the intellect to question his nature and actions. All with the consequence of burning in hell for all eternity if we choose not to follow the path of hypocrisy. So, in fact our own intellect could very well be considered sinful.
Nicely said, Brit. Indeed, the notion that "our own intellect could very well be considered sinful" is, I think, exactly what the story of Genesis is trying to convey with the story about the Tree of Knowledge: the dawning of our intellect coincided with (indeed, caused) the dawning of our sinfulness.
Your comment reminds me of the line in Matthew 18:8, "if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away…." I once actually heard a televangelist apply this same principle to human thinking, by declaring that "if your reasoning causes you to turn away from Jesus, then reject your reasoning."
Fortunately for Christians, the Bible stops short of declaring, "if your mind causes you to sin, cut off your head and throw it away."
Grumpy you make arguments and observations which seem valid to me. When reading what you write, I find myself consistently agreeing with just about everything. One thing I noticed is that you have more knowledge about the Bible than me. You often point out the obvious discrepancies in the Bible in your posts. I wonder (and you probably have too) if by using the Bible as part of your argument you have already conceded defeat in the eyes of many Believers. To me, it seems that even mentioning the Bible tends to weaken just about any argument, because the Bible can (and is) interpreted many ways.
Keep up the good fight 🙂
Scholar
Any story can be deconstructed to mean pretty much anything by altering the context. Add to this technique the multitude of original authors and editors that put together "The Bible", and you have a document that only the deepest scholars can even guess at the original meaning.
Bart Ehrman (Erich's post about Misquoting Jesus) probably has a chance.
The point of the temptation of Man and his exile can be read from any number of points of view.
Consider the prohibition of Tree of Knowledge as a test to see if the original couple was becoming autonomous enough to survive on their own. A child would obey the injunction, but a willful adolescent would taste. Attractive Nuisance versus obedience as a test of maturity.
If you have not already read this book (The Name of the Rose), it is quite good. It takes place in a Old Monastary in the era of the Inquisition. It's exciting, kind of like a Sherlock Holmes mystery, but also has lots of history about religion. It was written by Umberto Eco, some kind of genious (apparently). Anyway, the recent posts about the insanity of the church reminded me of parts from the book…but I don't want to spoil it.
Scholar
Taking into context your discussions alone would really make someone wonder why would God make the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
To understand God, we must put into context the whole (theme) of the Bible, not just Genesis or Moses' commandments.
We also know that God created the Tree of Life. Why would He do these things in the first place? This is where confusions come into play. You see, God did not create those trees just to test our free will. What good is it to Him anyway?
(Like a computer programmer, there must be a problem, before laying out the "plans and tests.")
I'd say that God should have something to prove with "someone" or "something" to justify why He'd make those trees. And that is where the story of Lucifer comes in. You see, before the "test", there was already the serpent. (See Isaiah 14:12-14)
So there is reason behind all of these afterall. And the reason is that from the moment that God has made plans to test if we humans should be part of His family (throne), there already is this spiritual being that has been filled with envy and disgust with us humans that he'd rather see himself as equal to God. So who's to blame really?
Sooner or later (even without the Tree Of Knowledge), the serpent would have crafted ways to "defile" us and make us unworthy of God's grace and love. But then again God has a "Plan B" if I may say. When we are already sinners and still sinning, He sacrificed His own Son (the Word that was with Him during Creation, a God Himself) to absorb all our sins, to make us worthy again. Jesus suffered as a cause of our disobedience to the true God and allowing ourselves being "defiled" by the Evil One.
Also, I'm opposed to the idea that God is omniscient or all-knowing. If He is indeed omniscient, then why bother testing Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? You see God tests us because He doesn't know our "final" decision. I do know that God "knows" our tendencies. Much more like Satan or Lucifer, being spirits that have been existing aeons before we came into existence, they must have known our tendencies, our desires. What good is our free will if God already know what would happen or what our decisions will be? Can't you see how God Himself respects our "inner" privacy? How would God know if you are in (or with) Him or not without laying out (or permitting) some plans/tests (made by the devil). Remember, if Lucifer hadn't become what he is now then perhaps there is no need for these tests/punishments. Everything might have gone the way that God has "planned originally." But Alas, God doesn't control the "free will" of us humans and other spiritual beings!
It is worth quoting a verse from the Bible:
"For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 6:12, NIV)
Ultimately, it is our choice to choose whether to join this spiritual battle (by believing in God, His Son, His Spirit) or just continue your existence as a human being without any realization of God (or any spiritual beings). If you go for the latter, just make sure that every decision or "will" you make is not that which was whispered to you by the serpent.
Those pesky serpents must be working overtime at the National Academy of Sciences where stem cell research continues (against God's will?) …
http://www.nationalacademies.org/
Those pesky serpents must be working overtime at the National Academy of Sciences where stem cell research continues (against God’s will?) …
Did somebody say they are serpents (besides you of course)?
Don't make hasty generalizations. Not all scientists are not without a God of some sort. Same with the military or any army of the State. Indeed, we have "physical" problems as well as "spiritual." So there shouldn't be nothing indeed against people working to help us in our "physical" problems.
See Matthew 8:5-13 on how Jesus commended a centurion, a general of the State, for believing in Him and humbling himself before the Lord. But did Jesus tell him to leave the army? No. Give to Caesar what is to Caesar's. The State (or any physical organization for that matter) that is supposed to help and protect us should continue to do what is "just and right."
(For a good reading see: http://www.answering-islam.de/Main//Authors/Arlan…
Thanks for the vacuous links, Man. Where can I get me a good bible?
I also wonder…
Why won't your cruel God help scientists to reduce Global Warming?
90 percent of scientists agree that *humans* are causing it.
http://english.people.com.cn/200702/06/eng2007020…
What makes me furious is Faux's right-wing spin on the scientific findings.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250980,00.htm…
Cruel god? Depends on what god you are talking to. Besides, the topic delves on why God has made tests for Adam & Eve. And as I've said, it was not necessary until… bear in mind… until we have the most beautiful angel with free-will dreamt of being equal with God hence became His adversary.
Says Lucifer…
"I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (Isaiah 14:14)
And who is the real god of this world (now)?
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
So up to now it there has been this spiritual warfare that has been going on since time immemorial. So what the Father hath said to us (after Lucifer and his angels declared war)?
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" (De 30:19 )
In my opinion, it is not a question why God "does not help" but instead why God "has permitted" undesirable things (like global warming etc.) to happen. Because being God he can just indeed "undo" (or prevent) everything His adversary has done and has been doing to us or, more honorably, show the Evil One that not every human is as hopeless or futile as he thinks (there is a spiritual battle going on until now!)
Instead of asking "why aren't You helping" why just say "thank You for giving me knowledge to help ease some of the problems we are now facing" against the will of Satan (evils of mankind).
I have nothing against scientists, for I am a scientist myself. I am both a geologist and a programmer. I use my knowledge for helping others and I am pretty sure it's not against God's will. In fact, whenever I accomplish something good I prefer not to take credit but instead thank God for it. I am just a tool, a servant. Sometimes though, I did and I do bad things and this is when I was weak and became a tool by the real "cruel" god.
As for where to get a good Bible, well just like you I am still "looking" for a perfect/most complete untainted copy (that's impossible!). But alas (like said in 2 Corinthians 4:3) the original content (language) might be blurred and will be subjected to different interpretations indeed. But the essence is simple all throughout the sacred texts. That is why when Jesus ascended He promise to bestow the Holy Spirit to those who will believe in Him and thereby know the truth on what was written, until He comes back to "overrule" the Evil One who is (mostly) in control right now.
My suggestion is to read whatever Bible you can get hold of and if you don't understand something (discrepancies, vaguity, etc..) then do some research. I believe if God really wants you to know Him, He will help you.
http://www.biblegateway.com
[What makes me furious is Faux’s right-wing spin on the scientific findings.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250980,00.htm…
I agree with you on the above. Since this issue is still unfolding, I just hope (and pray) that whatever the outcome is for the good of all of us. Being "physical" humans, we have a lot of work to do ahead of us to do the right thing about it!
As for the spiritual part, we have a choice to join God against the "cruelty" of His adversary by praying that by exercising our "free will", we can make the right choices about it… choices that are "moral, just, and righteous" and not conceited.
Man from the Midwest, I am still curious as to why your "sadistic" God would allow his people to write bestsellers like these?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_a_christia… http://www.samharris.org/index.php/samharris/prin…
Dr. Smug, if you are familiar with the story of Job, you would have an idea as to why God allows or permits "bad" things to happen. I pray that you don't only get the idea but to "know" the wisdom behind it instead. In the story, there are three main "characters" — God, Job, and Satan.
As for those persons writing against the True God (or belief in Him), it's just a matter of exercising your free will against the will of God, much like what Lucifer did. God allowed but that doesn't mean He consented.
And that is why we need to know God's ultimate purpose to all mankind. And this is where you read the Bible. Not just read, but understand.
Is it not written that things like these would occur (before the Second Coming of Christ)? False prophets, calamities, plagues, sufferings… so issues like these are not new to Christians.
The greatest triumph for Satan is to lure us that God doesn't exist.
Oh by the way, do you really know what is the best selling book of all time?
Read the Bible 🙂
I cannot tell a lie. I hate God. God is a liar. I want to go to hell when I die, instead of just turning into worm food. Please. I curse my soul to hell. The bible is a book of lies. May lightning strike my hard-drive right now and zap me, if I am lying about hating God. Zap! Ow. You win. 🙂
The best selling hamburger is McDonald's. This does not mean it is good for you.
The old testament doesn't mention a second coming of a Messiah. Only the first coming, soon after which comes a golden age. If Jesus was the Messiah, then we are already in that paradise. If not, then he matches the definition of false prophet. Either pick one, or openly deny the validity of the Old Testament.
Some Christian denominations are based on picking the date for the return of Jesus, and resetting the clock every generation as it fails to happen. Others simply know that it will be imminently (and have known it for centuries). Still others don't worry about it at all, but celebrate the life teachings of Jesus rather than the death cult of Jesus.
Atheism is a non-prophet faith. We have no worries about backing the wrong horse, because we're not even expecting any horse to come in.
Just a Man writes: "Is it not written that things like these would occur (before the Second Coming of Christ)? False prophets, calamities, plagues, sufferings… so issues like these are not new to Christians."
Is THAT the best argument you can make in support of your religion? Revering a book that predicts that things which have happened *continually throughout human history* will continue to occur? Oooh, what an amazing revelation. It is on par with predicting that all teams except one will win the Superbowl next year, or that someday the stock market will crash again, or that every one of us will someday get an illness, or have our heart broken. Come on, everyone, let's fall on our knees and worship God for predicting that humans will continue to worship imaginary deities, and that we will suffer and die, just as we have done for tens of thousands of years.
Point well taken Mr. Dan. But as you said "some" people who call themselves Christians don't understand the wisdom behind the scriptures that is why they are very open to criticisms and belittling. Much as to atheists either, they may not know about what they truly believe or do not believe.
Dr. Smug, let me expound a little further…
How come you hate a "God" when you don't believe in Him in the first place? And do you also believe in hell? No God but there is hell? If you don't believe in God, then don't believe in your soul or spirit anymore. And yup, just affirm that you will be worm food indeed. Nothing more. Do you ever ponder what's the point of existing when we will just fade away someday? You can say, just live a life to the fullest, no worries. I have tried to live like that, but somehow I feel empty inside. What's the point in all these things when it's only "worms" to look forward to?
But again, if you do believe in a God, but just hates Him because of what you think He is, then how hopeless our case really is huh? We got hell besides worms to look forward to. But being someone who believes in Him, I know He loves us, and you know what, I will definitely pray that He hears our anguish and give us comfort and contentment.
If you read the links which Dr. Smug has posted, you can see the reviews about the books and it is still not one-sided. You have a good review and criticisms as well. But being fair also, I would like to have a copy of them as well. There's nothing bad to study and read it anyway. (Another author earning big bucks by just the mere mention of "god" in it, thank "god".)
As for the Bible, Jesus says it's good for your soul, it is good for your very being. McDonald's doesn't say anything about their burgers that it's good for your health or something like that. But yeah, I still eat them once in a while 😛
The Old Testament have prophets telling the coming of a Messiah (says Isaiah etc…)
The New Testament is all about Jesus and He taught about the second coming. Being "The Word of God" he has the authority to say it so. He 'was' a God Himself before He humbled Himself as a human.
John 14:6-7 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.
See also Matthew 11:1-4
Just a man wrote: "Do you ever ponder what’s the point of existing when we will just fade away someday?"
Why do you think you need to have a POINT to your existence?? What's so special about YOU that your essence needs to live on and on forever?! What conceit! Just exist for a while and be nice to everybody! Then later when you die, DON'T exist and have them remember you fondly…is that so terrible?
The pomposity of religion is that it attempts to convince us that we are not insignificant in the universe when, in fact, we are. Sorry, Man, if that bums you out. Who we ARE significant to is our friends and family and others we meet. Treat them well.
So does it mean that anyone who comes to the "realization" the he has some "essence" or "soul" or "spirit" means he is conceited and isn't nice to anyone? What a hasty generalization. Don't you worry, I still love you 🙂
I'm just sharing my thoughts (like Dr. Smug says so boldly about what he thinks otherwise) that I don't believe I will just be worm food when I die. Now, is that so terrible?
You are correct though… may I add that you treat well not just your friends and family, but even strangers (be a good samaritan) and even in some cases… your enemies (a Christian teaching).
And looking at the way you replied rather "repugnant" to my posts, it seems like you were the first one to be "bummed out" as you said. Sorry?
To Just a Man:
That post was written rather hastily, so I apologize if it came off as "repugnant".
I neither did I mean to imply that you don't treat your friends and family well. In fact, I suspect that you do. I was just making the point that how we live here and now is important for the here and now, not for some fanciful otherworld that we are promised to retire to, and the knowledge that we can make the lives of others better should be enough reward.
I am not bummed out by any of this. I have long ago accepted that my existence may be finite. Rather, I am continually astounded at the clinging to an infantile longing for the reassurance of our specialness that religion seems to provide. You can't deny that you NEED to have a point to your existence. You NEED to think that you will not die. So therefore you have a "realization", and you back it up by pointing to a thick book that is clearly (to me, at least) a pastiche of fabrications.
I still contend that the bible fuels the innate conceit that we all share. I too would love to believe that I am special and being watched over by a benevolent father. But that book does little to convince me of that.
I love you too and hope we can continue to explore this fascinating subject.
Dr. Smug responds to questions from a Christian Child:
Question: How come you hate a “God” when you don’t believe in Him in the first place?
I did believe in Him in the first place, I used to be a Christian Child too, now my belief is that mother nature is the one in control. The hate part was a stretch, I was just trying to make my point that God does not exist, so obviously He won't care about me cursing Him. Further, I am convinced that no harm will come to me as a result of cursing God. Of course, I started small, first by trying to pray, then by just calling God a big fat liar, then eventually I felt comfortable knowing (believing) that God is just like all other fairy tales. Therefore, I can say with ease… I hate God, God is a Turdmuncher.
Question: And do you also believe in hell? No God but there is hell?
I am pondering the concept of Hell. I would be willing to trade my casket of *worm food* for an eternity of suffering. Yes, I think that would be preferable to just turning into dust. If you can arrange any sort of after-life for me, whether its 56 virgins (70 would be overkill :)) or Heaven, or Vishnu, I will be willing to accept your offer. Even if it were to be an offer from SATAN for an after-life, I would prefer that over my lonely coffin when I die. This example is merely to explain to you (Just a Man) how I truly feel about God and religion, and the truth is… anybody who believes in Heaven OR Hell is *barking* insane.
Question: What’s the point in all these things when it’s only “worms” to look forward to?
Wow, you are actually using your brain now, consider that a compliment 🙂
You ask a deep, wonderful, philosophical question. Think how hard it is for me, a person who knows to their innermost core that God does not exist, to do what is *right*. Sometimes I fail. I try to be nice, and honest. I keep in touch with my parents. I try and do the best that I can. I (occasionally) feel guilty about my life of relative affluence, I intend to make a difference, someday.