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	<title>Comments on: But is it still live music?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/07/23/but-is-it-still-live-music/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/07/23/but-is-it-still-live-music/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Tony Coyle</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/07/23/but-is-it-still-live-music/comment-page-1/#comment-47394</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Coyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=8238#comment-47394</guid>
		<description>Erich

Maybe I should have read the entire post [blush]

I don't like auto-harmonizers... overused you can end up with the 'autotune' sound (cher comes to mind!).

That said -- if your music is enhanced by simple harmonies, go ahead. Used sparingly (as you plan) I don't see any problem -- audiences are a little more used to electronic assistance these days.

And with regards to using 'effects' to beef up your sound -- there are very few singers who don't use some form of reinforcement, equalization, or compression to ensure their voice stands out in the mix (even against a single guitar).

Enjoy your gig... I'm jealously thinking about you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erich</p>
<p>Maybe I should have read the entire post [blush]</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t like auto-harmonizers&#8230; overused you can end up with the &#8216;autotune&#8217; sound (cher comes to mind!).</p>
<p>That said &#8212; if your music is enhanced by simple harmonies, go ahead. Used sparingly (as you plan) I don&#8217;t see any problem &#8212; audiences are a little more used to electronic assistance these days.</p>
<p>And with regards to using &#8216;effects&#8217; to beef up your sound &#8212; there are very few singers who don&#8217;t use some form of reinforcement, equalization, or compression to ensure their voice stands out in the mix (even against a single guitar).</p>
<p>Enjoy your gig&#8230; I&#8217;m jealously thinking about you!</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Coyle</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/07/23/but-is-it-still-live-music/comment-page-1/#comment-47392</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Coyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=8238#comment-47392</guid>
		<description>Erich:  good luck with your gig

I'll echo Hank's comment -- just get out and sing.  Practice doesn't make perfect, but it does make for far more comfort!

One thing I recall reading... some people who think they have a "bad voice" have never really heard themselves as others hear them.  They only ever hear their voice through bone-conduction and reverberation through the sinus passages.  It's like listening to music on a 60's cassette player, turned up to the max, whilst muffled buy a pillow.  You get no sense of the actual harmonics that deliver the tone.  All you get is mud.

So try recording yourself.  Just belt it out, singing only for yourself. There are many DAW applications available for use that let you add effects (like reverb) so you can hear what you might sound like through a PA in a real room...

Honestly -- I thought I had a great voice... until I heard myself on a recording (pretty much in tune, but I sound like a basso-profundo version of the proclaimers)

Having said that -- I've always had fun at open mikes... it's fun doing songs everyone knows... but in a weird accent! (hounddog, as sung by a scottish version of barry white, imitating a nawrleans accent, badly)


If you're worried that your voice is weak - ask the sound guy to add a little reverb, or to boost the mids &amp; lows.  You'll be surprised what that can do to fill out even a weak delivery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erich:  good luck with your gig</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll echo Hank&#8217;s comment &#8212; just get out and sing.  Practice doesn&#8217;t make perfect, but it does make for far more comfort!</p>
<p>One thing I recall reading&#8230; some people who think they have a &#8220;bad voice&#8221; have never really heard themselves as others hear them.  They only ever hear their voice through bone-conduction and reverberation through the sinus passages.  It&#8217;s like listening to music on a 60&#8217;s cassette player, turned up to the max, whilst muffled buy a pillow.  You get no sense of the actual harmonics that deliver the tone.  All you get is mud.</p>
<p>So try recording yourself.  Just belt it out, singing only for yourself. There are many DAW applications available for use that let you add effects (like reverb) so you can hear what you might sound like through a PA in a real room&#8230;</p>
<p>Honestly &#8212; I thought I had a great voice&#8230; until I heard myself on a recording (pretty much in tune, but I sound like a basso-profundo version of the proclaimers)</p>
<p>Having said that &#8212; I&#8217;ve always had fun at open mikes&#8230; it&#8217;s fun doing songs everyone knows&#8230; but in a weird accent! (hounddog, as sung by a scottish version of barry white, imitating a nawrleans accent, badly)</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re worried that your voice is weak - ask the sound guy to add a little reverb, or to boost the mids &#038; lows.  You&#8217;ll be surprised what that can do to fill out even a weak delivery.</p>
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		<title>By: Hank</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/07/23/but-is-it-still-live-music/comment-page-1/#comment-47378</link>
		<dc:creator>Hank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 01:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=8238#comment-47378</guid>
		<description>I'm sure you'll whip it good out there Erich! I've heard your improvised soloing and you clearly have the ear required to sing well. Now, as Leslie told you, the best thing to do is sing a lot and get used to how you sound. I hated how I sounded when I started singing at 15, but you have to think around that and push on. I didn't really like how I sounded until I was past 20! Your vocal chords and all associated musculature are like any other muscle (and your brain) in that they strengthen, loosen up and improve with usage, so get out there and hit it. Hopefully Tim can sneak some video for us ...

As far as the gadgets go, well, they definitely have their place. My band is a four-piece - drums, bass, guitar, vocals. We have a much larger sound than that though, thanks to our guitar player programming synthesized strings, horns, keyboard lines and electro drum loops that we play along to (our drummer has his own headphone channel from our robot with a click track so we stay in time). On our album, we had all those strings and horns and many synth/key parts recorded by live players and we now use those masters in our live show. It really adds to the drama and scale of the music we're trying to put out there and people seem to really respond to it. At our core we're still a tight little four-piece rock band, but we have this swirling sonic backdrop which enhances the live sound and goes some way to reproducing the recorded sound. We don't consider it cheating though and neither do many of the biggest bands in the world (eg Muse - they use sequences even they though could afford full orchestras every night). Besides, it would be impractical for us to have six horn players and a string quartet plus a keyboard player and up to three backing vocalists at each show.

There are caveats, though. I would never sing along to prerecorded or real-time electronically generated vocal harmonies. I've seen bands that do that and it really turns me off - it seems lazy, especially when there are three or four other musos up there who could be doing those harmonies! Plus if the singer's flat or just not having a good night, the pre-recorded harmonies will expose that very quickly. If there's only one person with a mic in his face you should only hear one voice. None of my band sing live generally and it definitely puts more pressure on me to sing well, but I like that pressure and I like the control &amp; ownership that it gives me. In the studio you have the luxury of recording multiple takes, harmonies and backing lines and then being able to edit the best bits together (like putting together a film) so you can take your time. On stage you've got one chance to nail it (like theatre) so you have to be prepared. Noone expects a carbon copy of the seemingly perfect recorded vocals but any singer worth his salt should be able to convey the same mood as his recording and with a comparable level of skill.

Ditto guitars - guitar solos should be live, always. Second guitar parts during solos should only be there if your band has a second guitarist. Essentially I think sequenced or pre-recorded tracks should be an enhancement to your band's live sound and not be a featured or lead instrument. Any instrument or voice being used on stage really shouldn't need a sequenced counterpart. 

Having said that though, playing a one or two-man show at an open mic night or afternoon cafe session is on a completely different pitch to playing loud bar shows on crowded Friday or Saturday nights. For each different kind of show there are different expectations from each corresponding audience and venue.

Erich, I will say this though: most punters (non-musically literate music-lovers) don't actually care, if they even notice at all, if a band or solo performer uses a lot of sequenced material as long as the players and singers are good at what they do, so go for your life :) We in FTA only care because we're purists! We're actually getting some horn players and backup singers in for a few songs at our official album launch gig next Friday - I'm looking forward to it, but I'm not sure where they're all going to stand...fingers crossed the video and live sound mix turn out ok!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll whip it good out there Erich! I&#8217;ve heard your improvised soloing and you clearly have the ear required to sing well. Now, as Leslie told you, the best thing to do is sing a lot and get used to how you sound. I hated how I sounded when I started singing at 15, but you have to think around that and push on. I didn&#8217;t really like how I sounded until I was past 20! Your vocal chords and all associated musculature are like any other muscle (and your brain) in that they strengthen, loosen up and improve with usage, so get out there and hit it. Hopefully Tim can sneak some video for us &#8230;</p>
<p>As far as the gadgets go, well, they definitely have their place. My band is a four-piece - drums, bass, guitar, vocals. We have a much larger sound than that though, thanks to our guitar player programming synthesized strings, horns, keyboard lines and electro drum loops that we play along to (our drummer has his own headphone channel from our robot with a click track so we stay in time). On our album, we had all those strings and horns and many synth/key parts recorded by live players and we now use those masters in our live show. It really adds to the drama and scale of the music we&#8217;re trying to put out there and people seem to really respond to it. At our core we&#8217;re still a tight little four-piece rock band, but we have this swirling sonic backdrop which enhances the live sound and goes some way to reproducing the recorded sound. We don&#8217;t consider it cheating though and neither do many of the biggest bands in the world (eg Muse - they use sequences even they though could afford full orchestras every night). Besides, it would be impractical for us to have six horn players and a string quartet plus a keyboard player and up to three backing vocalists at each show.</p>
<p>There are caveats, though. I would never sing along to prerecorded or real-time electronically generated vocal harmonies. I&#8217;ve seen bands that do that and it really turns me off - it seems lazy, especially when there are three or four other musos up there who could be doing those harmonies! Plus if the singer&#8217;s flat or just not having a good night, the pre-recorded harmonies will expose that very quickly. If there&#8217;s only one person with a mic in his face you should only hear one voice. None of my band sing live generally and it definitely puts more pressure on me to sing well, but I like that pressure and I like the control &amp; ownership that it gives me. In the studio you have the luxury of recording multiple takes, harmonies and backing lines and then being able to edit the best bits together (like putting together a film) so you can take your time. On stage you&#8217;ve got one chance to nail it (like theatre) so you have to be prepared. Noone expects a carbon copy of the seemingly perfect recorded vocals but any singer worth his salt should be able to convey the same mood as his recording and with a comparable level of skill.</p>
<p>Ditto guitars - guitar solos should be live, always. Second guitar parts during solos should only be there if your band has a second guitarist. Essentially I think sequenced or pre-recorded tracks should be an enhancement to your band&#8217;s live sound and not be a featured or lead instrument. Any instrument or voice being used on stage really shouldn&#8217;t need a sequenced counterpart. </p>
<p>Having said that though, playing a one or two-man show at an open mic night or afternoon cafe session is on a completely different pitch to playing loud bar shows on crowded Friday or Saturday nights. For each different kind of show there are different expectations from each corresponding audience and venue.</p>
<p>Erich, I will say this though: most punters (non-musically literate music-lovers) don&#8217;t actually care, if they even notice at all, if a band or solo performer uses a lot of sequenced material as long as the players and singers are good at what they do, so go for your life <img src='http://dangerousintersection.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> We in FTA only care because we&#8217;re purists! We&#8217;re actually getting some horn players and backup singers in for a few songs at our official album launch gig next Friday - I&#8217;m looking forward to it, but I&#8217;m not sure where they&#8217;re all going to stand&#8230;fingers crossed the video and live sound mix turn out ok!</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/07/23/but-is-it-still-live-music/comment-page-1/#comment-47317</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=8238#comment-47317</guid>
		<description>Tim: I don't know if I should tell you when and where I'll sing.  You might clap too much and embarrass me. 

ps. I will give you fair warning. I cannot sing like Hank (&lt;a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/06/18/and-now-for-something-completely-different/" rel="nofollow"&gt;go here for more on his group, "From the Ashes"&lt;/a&gt;).   I'm the singing equivalent of a person on training wheels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim: I don&#8217;t know if I should tell you when and where I&#8217;ll sing.  You might clap too much and embarrass me. </p>
<p>ps. I will give you fair warning. I cannot sing like Hank (<a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/06/18/and-now-for-something-completely-different/" rel="nofollow">go here for more on his group, &#8220;From the Ashes&#8221;</a>).   I&#8217;m the singing equivalent of a person on training wheels.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Hogan</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/07/23/but-is-it-still-live-music/comment-page-1/#comment-47271</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Hogan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=8238#comment-47271</guid>
		<description>Dude, you rocked the house! 

I think I remember that gig from the photo as being a "Battle of the Bands" at the now defunct Northland Shopping Center. You guys finished second, the band that won did a Tower of Power bit, and the judge was wearing a Tower of Power t-shirt. 

You fought the Power even then and keep on!

I think everyone has music in their souls, some just are unknowing or too timid to let it out. That's why I sung my kids to sleep every night for their first five years (sometimes via long distance when I traveled!). 

My daughter sings in a children's chorus she has to audition for each year. My song has a beautiful sporano voice that when he's not thinking about what he's doing sounds angelic. My wife has finally caught on, she has a low alto, almost tenor voice that is catchy. I still make up songs as I drive, used to make them up as I traveled by hitchhiking around the country, and dream of writing for some of my favorite perfomers.

Erich, you can do this, it just requires you to apply the same will you have to making yourself who you are for your family and friends, and the dedication you've show in so many other aspects of your life. Do it! 

Now, when's that first gig, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dude, you rocked the house! </p>
<p>I think I remember that gig from the photo as being a &#8220;Battle of the Bands&#8221; at the now defunct Northland Shopping Center. You guys finished second, the band that won did a Tower of Power bit, and the judge was wearing a Tower of Power t-shirt. </p>
<p>You fought the Power even then and keep on!</p>
<p>I think everyone has music in their souls, some just are unknowing or too timid to let it out. That&#8217;s why I sung my kids to sleep every night for their first five years (sometimes via long distance when I traveled!). </p>
<p>My daughter sings in a children&#8217;s chorus she has to audition for each year. My song has a beautiful sporano voice that when he&#8217;s not thinking about what he&#8217;s doing sounds angelic. My wife has finally caught on, she has a low alto, almost tenor voice that is catchy. I still make up songs as I drive, used to make them up as I traveled by hitchhiking around the country, and dream of writing for some of my favorite perfomers.</p>
<p>Erich, you can do this, it just requires you to apply the same will you have to making yourself who you are for your family and friends, and the dedication you&#8217;ve show in so many other aspects of your life. Do it! </p>
<p>Now, when&#8217;s that first gig, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/07/23/but-is-it-still-live-music/comment-page-1/#comment-47270</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=8238#comment-47270</guid>
		<description>Quick and easy suggestion:
Get a harmonica and one of those harmonica holster things that goes around your neck. You don't even have to play it (nobody actually likes hearing the harmonica).It will help you achieve the illusion of a one-man-band. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quick and easy suggestion:<br />
Get a harmonica and one of those harmonica holster things that goes around your neck. You don&#8217;t even have to play it (nobody actually likes hearing the harmonica).It will help you achieve the illusion of a one-man-band. <img src='http://dangerousintersection.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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