Comments on: My first time getting caught by photo enforcement of a traffic violation. http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/ Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:14:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-2/#comment-63836 Erich Vieth Sat, 06 Feb 2010 22:01:57 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-63836 CN: I suspect that these devices are illegal, based upon arguments that were raised by a state judge who recently contested a ticket (the City of St. Louis didn't pursue the case on appeal after Dierker apparently prevailed in traffic court at trial, after losing an earlier motion to dismiss- here's a description of the case http://www.timesnews.net/user_profile.php?profile=15599&action=comments ). Notice how the traffic court judge sealed the court filed. Interest, given that Dierker undoubtedly wrote a well-reasoned argument that let to the dismissal--if it would be made public, it would be a likely prescription for victory by anyone receiving a photo ticket, at least where the driver of the car can't be identified by the photos, even though the car CAN be identified. The argument likely has to do with burden of proof. Many of the photo cameras don't show the face of the car's operator--therefore, whenever there is argument that someone other the defendant was driving (this is a big issue where the household has more than one person licensed to drive). The real question, however, is whether you want to spend your valuable time and hard-earned money fighting a photo ticket rather than just paying the $100. I paid mine, even though I am an attorney and I wouldn't have had to pay out any fees to an attorney to handle the matter. I still thought it not worth my time to fight the ticket. I'd be happy to represent someone who wants to pay me to do so, but it might take a few dozen hours if the case were appealed. Even at $200 hour, this could amount to many thousands of dollars to fight a $100 ticket. Our you could represent yourself--everyone has the right to do so, if you're willing to risk the many legal pitfalls of litigating without legal training. CN: I suspect that these devices are illegal, based upon arguments that were raised by a state judge who recently contested a ticket (the City of St. Louis didn’t pursue the case on appeal after Dierker apparently prevailed in traffic court at trial, after losing an earlier motion to dismiss- here’s a description of the case http://www.timesnews.net/user_profile.php?profile=15599&action=comments ). Notice how the traffic court judge sealed the court filed. Interest, given that Dierker undoubtedly wrote a well-reasoned argument that let to the dismissal–if it would be made public, it would be a likely prescription for victory by anyone receiving a photo ticket, at least where the driver of the car can’t be identified by the photos, even though the car CAN be identified. The argument likely has to do with burden of proof. Many of the photo cameras don’t show the face of the car’s operator–therefore, whenever there is argument that someone other the defendant was driving (this is a big issue where the household has more than one person licensed to drive).

The real question, however, is whether you want to spend your valuable time and hard-earned money fighting a photo ticket rather than just paying the $100. I paid mine, even though I am an attorney and I wouldn’t have had to pay out any fees to an attorney to handle the matter. I still thought it not worth my time to fight the ticket. I’d be happy to represent someone who wants to pay me to do so, but it might take a few dozen hours if the case were appealed. Even at $200 hour, this could amount to many thousands of dollars to fight a $100 ticket. Our you could represent yourself–everyone has the right to do so, if you’re willing to risk the many legal pitfalls of litigating without legal training.

]]> By: CN http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-2/#comment-63662 CN Sat, 06 Feb 2010 00:57:38 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-63662 Last night, my husband received this "photo enforcement traffic violation". $100 fine. This is the second time he got this. He's thinking of not paying this time. Atty. Vieth, is it a good idea not to? What will happen if he doesn't pay this $100 fine? Would he get into a bigger trouble? Last night, my husband received this “photo enforcement traffic violation”. $100 fine. This is the second time he got this. He’s thinking of not paying this time. Atty. Vieth, is it a good idea not to? What will happen if he doesn’t pay this $100 fine? Would he get into a bigger trouble?

]]> By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-2/#comment-63026 Erich Vieth Tue, 02 Feb 2010 04:41:19 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-63026 allenb: Based on what I've been hearing, you are entirely correct. And yes, I've heard that there are a lot of rear-enders at photo-governed intersections for exactly the reason you've described. allenb: Based on what I’ve been hearing, you are entirely correct. And yes, I’ve heard that there are a lot of rear-enders at photo-governed intersections for exactly the reason you’ve described.

]]> By: allenb http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-2/#comment-63025 allenb Tue, 02 Feb 2010 04:08:59 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-63025 It is my understanding that no points can be assessed for these photo tickets and if you do not pay them, they can do nothing about it. There is debate about their constitutionality but no question they are a big money maker for municipalities. Myself, I rear ended a little lady who MASHED on her brakes after entering an intersection because she thought the camera was going to give her a ticket ! Of course the police don't record any 'incidents' related to this so that the cameras won't have to be removed. It is my understanding that no points can be assessed for these photo tickets and if you do not pay them, they can do nothing about it. There is debate about their constitutionality but no question they are a big money maker for municipalities. Myself, I rear ended a little lady who MASHED on her brakes after entering an intersection because she thought the camera was going to give her a ticket ! Of course the police don’t record any ‘incidents’ related to this so that the cameras won’t have to be removed.

]]> By: Niklaus Pfirsig http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-2/#comment-62287 Niklaus Pfirsig Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:38:23 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-62287 A couple of things. A town in Tennessee, near Nashville a few years ago began citing drivers for running yellow lights, using photo enforcement as evidence. Recently, Tennessee lawmakers have started to consider a moratorium on traffic enforcement cameras due to the lack of any standard policies concerning the operation. One point to study is that the traffic citations are being issued by employees of a private company, which may be in violation of Tennessee law. A couple of things.

A town in Tennessee, near Nashville a few years ago began citing drivers for running yellow lights, using photo enforcement as evidence.

Recently, Tennessee lawmakers have started to consider a moratorium on traffic enforcement cameras due to the lack of any standard policies concerning the operation. One point to study is that the traffic citations are being issued by employees of a private company, which may be in violation of Tennessee law.

]]> By: Greg http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-2/#comment-61993 Greg Wed, 27 Jan 2010 03:03:35 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-61993 Brenda, that's nice for whoever the photo ticket was intended for. Someone else did the crime and you got send the fine. I got my picture taken this morning...I'm sure it will come in the mail some time soon. But the car is in my dad's name, but I don't know if he will be willing to pay the ticket. I suppose if I refused to pay it he will have to or face the consequences, but what an awful thing to do to dad. Brenda, that’s nice for whoever the photo ticket was intended for. Someone else did the crime and you got send the fine. I got my picture taken this morning…I’m sure it will come in the mail some time soon. But the car is in my dad’s name, but I don’t know if he will be willing to pay the ticket. I suppose if I refused to pay it he will have to or face the consequences, but what an awful thing to do to dad.

]]> By: Brenda Porter http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-1/#comment-56918 Brenda Porter Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:38:47 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-56918 We just received a Notice of Violation. We were not in that area on the date specified and the photo depicts a vehicle we do not own -- with a license plate one number different than ours. I'll send in the affidavit of non-respnsibility, of course. I drive a rental so often that I assumed this was valid and just prepared to pay the fine. Glad I looked a little closer. This is sloppy work on the part of the photo enforcement personnel. We just received a Notice of Violation. We were not in that area on the date specified and the photo depicts a vehicle we do not own — with a license plate one number different than ours. I’ll send in the affidavit of non-respnsibility, of course. I drive a rental so often that I assumed this was valid and just prepared to pay the fine. Glad I looked a little closer. This is sloppy work on the part of the photo enforcement personnel.

]]> By: Robert Merchant http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-1/#comment-56627 Robert Merchant Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:20:30 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-56627 This one comes from Washington.I to have received the rolling right turn tickets,15 to be exact.Here's the twist,I found out from a collection company,but only on the first five,it wasn't until I called redflex that I found the others.It seems they overlooked the fact I use a P.O.box for mailing,and yes it is on file with DMV.Improper notice will be my defense when I get to court.Yes big brother is watching,but who's watching big brother???? And yes Curran there are law firms out there fileing class actions, Ive signed on as a representitive with one of them This one comes from Washington.I to have received the rolling right turn tickets,15 to be exact.Here’s the twist,I found out from a collection company,but only on the first five,it wasn’t until I called redflex that I found the others.It seems they overlooked the fact I use a P.O.box for mailing,and yes it is on file with DMV.Improper notice will be my defense when I get to court.Yes big brother is watching,but who’s watching big brother???? And yes Curran there are law firms out there fileing class actions, Ive signed on as a representitive with one of them

]]> By: Dan Klarmann http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-1/#comment-56236 Dan Klarmann Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:18:37 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-56236 Tony, If you mean "trash" the camera, vandalism is punishable, even as a form of civil disobedience. If you mean "trash" the ticket, then it will be followed by a summons. It is a form of legal contempt: More expensive to argue than to comply. Tony, If you mean “trash” the camera, vandalism is punishable, even as a form of civil disobedience.
If you mean “trash” the ticket, then it will be followed by a summons. It is a form of legal contempt: More expensive to argue than to comply.

]]> By: Tony Sita http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/02/01/my-first-time-getting-caught-by-photo-enforcement-of-a-traffic-violation/comment-page-1/#comment-56227 Tony Sita Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:23:14 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4605#comment-56227 I thought an article in the RFT said that it was against our civil liberties for them to actually do this.True? What if I just trash it? I thought an article in the RFT said that it was against our civil liberties for them to actually do this.True? What if I just trash it?

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