Comments on: Judging the violence of others http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/01/15/judging-the-violence-of-others/ Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:33:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/01/15/judging-the-violence-of-others/comment-page-1/#comment-34014 Erich Vieth Fri, 16 Jan 2009 04:49:42 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4273#comment-34014 Johnny Walker Purple: Haidt is contrasting morality based on ideals with virtue ethics, which is based the development of good "character" based on exemplars of good behavior combined with repeated training to drum these in. This is <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_ethics" rel="nofollow">from Wikipedia</a>: "Virtue theory is a branch of moral philosophy that emphasizes character, rather than rules or consequences." It would be most difficult for such habits of kindness to detach from their real-world practice and to turn themselves on their head in furtherance of atrocities. On the other hand, <em>ideals </em>are often subverted--they are employed in Orwellian ways. To restate: Kind acts, practiced regularly, don't turn into violent acts, whereas <em>ideals </em>are much more vulnerable. Name for me any hideous society that hasn't had decent sounding laws on its books. Consider, for instance, the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_constitution#Chapter_III_-_Fundamental_Rights_and_Duties" rel="nofollow">Iraqi Constitution</a> that existed under the rule of Sadaam Hussein. Consider, also, the <a href="http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/36cons01.html" rel="nofollow">Constitution of the U.S.S.R.</a> from 1936 - 1977 or even consider the <a href="http://www.novexcn.com/dprk_constitution_98.html" rel="nofollow">Constitution of North Korea.</a> These writings are full of flowery idealistic language. <em>Many </em>of these provisions from these three totalitarian regimes sound quite reasonable. But, in practice, up becomes down. Johnny Walker Purple: Haidt is contrasting morality based on ideals with virtue ethics, which is based the development of good “character” based on exemplars of good behavior combined with repeated training to drum these in. This is from Wikipedia: “Virtue theory is a branch of moral philosophy that emphasizes character, rather than rules or consequences.”

It would be most difficult for such habits of kindness to detach from their real-world practice and to turn themselves on their head in furtherance of atrocities. On the other hand, ideals are often subverted–they are employed in Orwellian ways. To restate: Kind acts, practiced regularly, don’t turn into violent acts, whereas ideals are much more vulnerable. Name for me any hideous society that hasn’t had decent sounding laws on its books. Consider, for instance, the Iraqi Constitution that existed under the rule of Sadaam Hussein. Consider, also, the Constitution of the U.S.S.R. from 1936 - 1977 or even consider the Constitution of North Korea. These writings are full of flowery idealistic language. Many of these provisions from these three totalitarian regimes sound quite reasonable. But, in practice, up becomes down.

]]> By: Johnny Walker Purple http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/01/15/judging-the-violence-of-others/comment-page-1/#comment-33966 Johnny Walker Purple Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:40:42 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4273#comment-33966 I also don't think idealism is the right word here. Absolutism fits better hear than idealism. Having ideals is good. Ideals and principles drives us to make the world a better place. It is absolutism that decries all others a place in our vision of a better world. I also don’t think idealism is the right word here. Absolutism fits better hear than idealism. Having ideals is good. Ideals and principles drives us to make the world a better place. It is absolutism that decries all others a place in our vision of a better world.

]]> By: Johnny Walker Purple http://dangerousintersection.org/2009/01/15/judging-the-violence-of-others/comment-page-1/#comment-33965 Johnny Walker Purple Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:27:35 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=4273#comment-33965 I'm surprised that Jon Haidt would be make such an obvious mistep as saying, "Idealism easily becomes dangerous because it brings with it, almost inevitably, the belief that the ends justify the means. " The ends justify the means is a legitimate moral theory and <b>doesn't mean that an end justifies any means</b>, which is what he's talking about here. See here for more exploration on the misuse of the phrase "the ends justify the means": <a href="http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2008/12/do-ends-justify-means.html" rel="nofollow">http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2008/12/do-ends-justify-means.html</a> I’m surprised that Jon Haidt would be make such an obvious mistep as saying, “Idealism easily becomes dangerous because it brings with it, almost inevitably, the belief that the ends justify the means. ”

The ends justify the means is a legitimate moral theory and doesn’t mean that an end justifies any means, which is what he’s talking about here.

See here for more exploration on the misuse of the phrase “the ends justify the means”: http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2008/12/do-ends-justify-means.html

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