“Expelled” Redux
Duped from Ethics Gradient.
They’ve started advertising the DVD version of that infernal, mendacious, highly offensive, wilfully ignorant and misleading waste of megabytes known as Expelled. Bay of Fundie has scratched the surface of their advertising and revealed some new information.
Now, given that this is the DVD release of Expelled, it makes me wonder what kind of special features they’ll include. Of course no one can know for sure, but I have something of a wish list:
- a complete timeline of all the steps taken & communication entered into to secure the participation of such people as Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers, including a full explanation for the stark deviation from the premise of the original film: it was originally presented to Myers & Dawkins as a documentary named “Crossroads”, detailing the intersection of religion & science, which it clearly did not turn out to be, either by name or nature
- full, uncut, unedited interviews with the above-named
- a full explanation from the film’s producers of PZ Myer’s own expulsion from a screening of Expelled by security staff before he’d entered the theatre, despite the fact that he’d registered to attend under his own name and hadn’t attempted any kind of subterfuge, as was alleged early on by the producers (as well as an explanation of how Richard Dawkins, arguably more recognisable than PZ Myers, was allowed to enter unmolested)
- behind-the-scenes segments showing such things as exactly who comprised the audience in Ben Stein’s opening, paranoid address to college “students”and a clear explanation of Adolf Hitler’s alleged use Darwin’s theory of evolution to justify his horrific experiments
- a demonstration that the producers of this film - and Ben Stein himself - actually understand what the theory of evolution says and, importantly, what it doesn’t say: Stein is on record stating that evolution can’t explain certain astronomical phenomena & processes, apparently ignorant of the fact that evolution only applies to terrestrial biological diversity
- an explanation of how “micro-evolution” differs from “macro-evolution”, followed by an explanation of how a lit match can’t start a bushfire
- an actual clear-cut, definitive definition of the theory of Intelligent Design, the predictions made by this theory and why this theory requires equal time in science classes (see below)
- results of any actual research into & testing of ID’s predictions, including such information as the identity or even intent of the “designer” and the reason for the many, glaring inefficiencies, inconsistencies and illogicalities in biological “designs” from all branches of life. This should be presented by one or a combination of (but not limited to) the following high-profile design proponents: Michael Behe, William Dembski, Casey Luskin, Phillip Johnston & we mustn’t (nor will we ever) forget Ben Stein.
- a full explanation of the “controversy” that Stein & co wish to be taught to children, as it appears that the only controversy regarding the veracity of evolutionary theory is the one Stein & his partners in this endeavour have manufactured
- actual, scientific rebuttals of (or even credible challenges to) any aspect or aspects of the theory of evolution - without resorting to paranoid conspiracy theories or sweeping, unsupportable statements about “Big Science”
- an explanation of Stein’s infamous remark from an interview on a Christian TV programme: “Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.”
- an explanation of how Intelligent Design is not based on (or simply is) Biblical creationism & an explanation of the actions of the obviously religiously motivated members of the Dover, PA school board (and their supporters from the Discovery Institute, authors of the infamous and clearly religiously-based “Wedge Document”) which led to the famous trial of 2004
- a justification for singling out Darwinian evolution for special attention, while other fields such as Newtonian physics and Copernican astronomy each contradict Scripture in various ways but are (for the most part) left unmolested and uncontested by religionists
- one good reason why teaching children their parents’ religion shouldn’t just stay in Scripture classes, Sunday schools, churches and the family home and one good reason why it should be taught as fact alongside evidence-based science when, as is repeated often, religion & belief is a matter of faith, which by definition means “accepting a proposition without evidence”
…
Of course, it’s all wishful thinking on my part. But no more so than Stein & Co’s insistence that “Big Science” persecutes & expels religious professors for dissenting views, that ”Darwinism” is a one-way street to concentration camps or, indeed, the insistence of many ID supporters that Big Religion played no part in attempting to usher Bible stories into science classes through the back door in violation of the Establishment Clause of the Constitution of the United States.
I eagerly await my hopes to be dashed.
Oh dear, Vicki. Poor, depraved illogical a-fruitcake-ist. Fruit necessarily leads TO fruitcake! That IS logic! Repent now before you end up in Satan’s wood-fired pizza oven (he never uses cheese as a topping - he is abhorrent!!!!!)!
—
And Vicki, genocide is never genocide when the good guys do it. If GOD told Moses’ Hebrew stormtroopers to kill ALL the Midianites and take any surviving virgins as their whoreslaves, then that reason alone is enough reason that it was a Good Thing and the Right Thing.
*vomit*
[cue Biblical justification for genocide OR a sermon on how it was just a metaphor OR a lesson about how the Midianites were so evil and nasty they deserved a holocaust]
• Alison
You are 4% of the world’s pop claims to be atheists, 16% nothing and 80% believe in some sort of god.
I have never said that you have not been exposed (most have and they chose not to believe, as the Bible claims will happen).
I suggest that people “study” the Bible (big difference between reading and studying). Seems like you had lots of good works (as you know good works do not make you a Christian).
I never said that you are ignorant of Christian teaching. I have pointed out the ignorant arguments about the Bible that many have made (please understand the difference).
As I said studying the Bible for what it is, that is much different than reading looking for what you want to see.
Please show me some mistakes in the Bible (that is what you guys claim day and night yet you bring nothing in the form of evidence, if you do bring something then it is easily explained, see the unicorn argument).
Who said atheists were cave-dwellers? I have seen the way you guys “research” the Bible (run to what others say and then regurgitate it). Go to the Bible and study the passage in context, research the cultural context, research the original language (there are tools for that even if you do not know the original languages).
[Admin's note: The final sentence of this comment constituted "preaching." It was thus deleted. As used at this site, "preaching" is an attempt to announce what "God" thinks or what "God" wants, as though there is no alternative viewpoint as to what God "thinks" or "wants." Such presentations are distracting to these discussions, which (though such comments might well be motivated by a commentator's religious beliefs) should be based on what commentators themselves think. Preaching invites an endless and unproductive back and forth focused on the authenticity of such claims--whether "God" really thinks or desires "X." Further discussion of what is starkly presented as "God's" opinion, or any quotation to any passages from any religion's Sacred Literature, to the extent that those passages are intended to be unquestionable on any ground, are subject to pruning pursuant to the commenting guidelines regarding "preaching"].
• Vicki Baker
You wrote “Well, we’ve already talked about one: the massacre of the Midianites civilians - all the men, women who had had sex (and their unborn babies, presumably) all the male children. - slaughtered. All the virgin girls enslaved.”
I think you are a little confused. Are you speaking of the Midianites or the Canaanites? In Numbers God sends Israel to wage war against the Midianites because of their (the Midianites) actions. Also look at what the Midianite women did to the Israelites (please study the context of the situation. It is the same with the Canaanites, they were evil (offering up their babies as sacrifices, murdering, sexual immorality, rape, incest etc.). In other words you are blaming God for punishing the guilty. Strange, I guess you want the victims to be victimized twice, one by the perpetrator and again by not having the guilty punished.
If you will read the entire context and cross reference it then you will see that God tells them why they are to do it.
Erik-
Read Numbers 25 and 31 again, with an open mind. Now imagine that you are an Israelite warrior. Moses has just given you a lecture about how the Midianites seduced you into worshipping idols, and caused a plaque among the Israelites (of course similar explanations are offered for every other genocide in history - blaming the victims for causing disease or poisoning wells is very popular).
Moses gives the order to kill all the women and male children. Really place yourself inside the scene now. The victims would have to have been killed by stabbing, strangling, or bashing brains out with a club or rock - no bullets or poison gas back then. Can you imagine the smell of blood, and of urine and feces as the victims lose control of their bladder and bowels - either after death or before, through sheer terror. Imagine the screams of the women as they watch their children die, the cries of children as they watch their mothers die. What goes through your mind as you raise your sword to kill a small boy crouched by the side of his dead mother? Are you filled with righteous indignation at the crimes of the Midianites? Are you filled with joy to be doing the Lord’s will? Do you let yourself go numb and try not to think about what you’re doing? Does the thought cross your mind that maybe Moses got Yahweh’s instructions wrong?
You don’t have to answer - this is not meant to be a “gotcha.” Just promise me you’ll think about it- really think about what happened that day.
This may be too hard, but you might also imagine yourself reading this in the Koran, with the names changed. What would be your reaction?
• Vicki Baker
I see you are trying to explain away what is written in black and white. Leading people to worship idols leads them to reject God and brings terrible consequences (slavery to sin, death, wasted lives, etc). The warriors had seen it first hand, seen God’s plague destroying them (even the innocent, they suffer because of the sins of others). You are trying to add what is not there. What had the women done? Look at the sexual sin in chapter 25. Sexual sin destroys in a terrible way (and the innocent suffer). These are the women (in 25) who knowingly led the men of Israel into sin (the guilty being punished is not wrong). I would advise you to read chapters 22-25 in order to see the diabolic plans of the Medianites. Do not just look for what you want to see. Look at all that was happening. You are trying to make the guilty look innocent and become the victims here (notice YOU are doing it). By the way those same women (with their children) were the ones joining themselves with the Israelite men (many of them to be frank). The virgins were spared because they were not guilty of sleeping with the Israelite men. Look at the facts in the context.
Vicki: You read me wrong about chocolate. Chocolate calls to me every waking hour. For me, I will have nothing to do with that false dessert god: fruit cake. Now back to chocolate. You see? It’s always on my mind. And I’ve already confessed the extent to which chocolate pulls my strings. http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/08/is-it-disgusting-that-depends-on-whose-it-is/
And see here, too. http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/04/24/chocolate-provides-more-of-a-physiological-buzz-than-kissing/
But there’s no reason to have fights about pie versus chocolate. After all, there is chocolate pie.
Erik, my boy, you can’t just explain away everything with words like that.
Wholesale slaughter isn’t justified by deceiving of a few people, or half a population, or whatever.
What god ordered was genocide, which is reprehensibly WRONG, no matter who orders it.
If any highly publicized atheist were to ask for the slaughter of all religious people, we’d rightfully pass him off as a nutcase.
When a religious person does it, we get thousands of people saying that it’s a good idea, stopped only by the laws of the land. Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, just to name a few, blame all of societies ills on atheists, homosexuals, feminists, and basically everyone who isn’t like them.
Why the hell are people like that given any word on any official policies? People get killed, in the name of religion, far more often, and far more gleefully, than atheists who kill.
Don’t, for the last time, bring up Stalin or Hitler, because Hitler was Catholic, and Stalin had a cult of personality fascist regime. Atheism did not drive his murder, because atheists fell to his regime as well.
I expect a giant load of bollocks answer from you.
Well, I don’t know if Erik has truly left the building or not. For the record, when asked to contemplate what it would look, smell, and sound like when a group of armed men kill unarmed women, children, and babies, he wasn’t up to the challenge of taking the Bible literally. Even if you take the morally indefensible position that all those women, children, and babies were evil and guilty and deserved to die, how can you deny the actual killing was a messy, sordid business? In fact, the elaborate purification ritual that follows the massacre hints that even Moses and his warriors were a bit grossed out and feeling in need of purification.
The justification of the Midianite massacre requires an incredibly tight circle of reasoning so that no doubt can creep in. God is perfect and just, and so wouldn’t demand the execution of innocent people, ergo, all those women, children and babies deserved to die. But don’t think too hard about what it might look and feel like to kill a guilty evil toddler, because the guilty might start looking innocent if you do that. And don’t think too hard about the fact that the justification for the massacre reads like the justification for almost every other massacre, pogrom, genocide or lynching in history.
Those of us who have read the Bible know that later on, in the age of the prophets, these same tribespeople who massacred the Midianites began groping for more universal ideas of justice. Later still a man named Jesus challenged them to stop feeling self-righteous for keeping to the law, and embrace even more demanding standards of compassion. Erik’s moral reasoning apparently remains stuck at the stage of tribalism and blood vendetta.
Erik wrote:—”I tried to read the Bible and understood none of It until someone taught me how to study (not just try to explain or understand everything from our 20th and 21st Cent mindset.”
Ah. So someone had to interpret it for you. That makes it really clear. When it doesn’t make sense (common sense?) then you need a Master to spin it right for you so it does. Square pegs will fit in round holes if you just tweak it so…
Not to be totally dismissive, though, you are correct, it does require a certain background knowledge to really understand some of what is in the bible—but that just validates the fact that it has been added to, amended, interpreted, re-presented, tweaked, fiddled, and messed with by humans over the last 1800 years, which implies strongly that the same thing had been going on all along—prophecies rewritten to conform to current events, the ones that didn’t work out deleted, stuff forgotten. The fact that KJV misinterprets the word for unicorn suggests that other translations erred, too, and erred earlier, and got it wrong earlier.
In short, it is a flawed document. Hardly holy. Historically suspect. When we argue with you about translation errors and you come back and explain those errors even while acknowledging them AS ERRORS, you somehow manage to not make the larger connection that the errors—if they are errors—probably pre-date all post Yeshua translations.
In other words, not the word of god. Unless you choose to believe it is. But it is the belief that makes it so, not the document itself.
Erich: well because of your devotion to chocolate I suppose I must absolve you of the charge of dessert heresy. It’s quite disappointing really because I had the wood and marshmallow skewers all ready for your burning at the stake. Of course I always eat toasted marshmallows with chocolate in the divine dessert known as S”MORE. The S’MORE of course was invented by God’s Chosen People (USA! USA! USA!). Now I will have to go after Hank, a heathen Australian who probably has never eaten a S”MORE in his life.
You are all mistaken.
Cheesecake is the answer.
BOF:
http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/521/expelled-on-dvd