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	<title>Comments on: Would you like your young daughter to be the next Dream Girl USA?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:28:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mark Tiedemann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-55592</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Tiedemann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-55592</guid>
		<description>The motivation for the parent is probably much the same as the parent who pushes the kids into sports and drives them into competitive frenzies, probably thinking that it will pay off in a "superstar" down the line.  I think it always the parent living vicariously through the child.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The motivation for the parent is probably much the same as the parent who pushes the kids into sports and drives them into competitive frenzies, probably thinking that it will pay off in a &#8220;superstar&#8221; down the line.  I think it always the parent living vicariously through the child.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-55563</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 07:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-55563</guid>
		<description>Moral and ethical questions aside, we wonder, simply, what motivates a parent to enter his or her daughter in a pageant. Because, as David Hinckley wrote in the New York Daily News, “[I]t doesn’t take a Ph.D. to realize that the parent, not the 4-year-old, is the engine driving this train.” 

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/11/08/high_glitz_child_pageant_slideshow?source=newsletter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moral and ethical questions aside, we wonder, simply, what motivates a parent to enter his or her daughter in a pageant. Because, as David Hinckley wrote in the New York Daily News, “[I]t doesn’t take a Ph.D. to realize that the parent, not the 4-year-old, is the engine driving this train.” </p>
<p><a href="http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/11/08/high_glitz_child_pageant_slideshow?source=newsletter" rel="nofollow">http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/11/08/high_glitz_child_pageant_slideshow?source=newsletter</a></p>
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		<title>By: Soon To Be Pageant Mom</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-35930</link>
		<dc:creator>Soon To Be Pageant Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:35:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-35930</guid>
		<description>My daughter has begged me to do one of these pageants for a while now and I'm going to say yes.  She's 10 years old, a well-rounded child, a good student, well behaved, respects herself and has good self esteem.

I also did many pageants in my teens and I am an educated, well rounded person myself with a great career, wonderful husband and healthy relationships.  I'm sorry to say I have none of the issues that you are projecting these girls may have.  Pageants were a definitive and positive experience in my life that opened many, many doors an opportunities for me.  I am grateful to have done them and I'm certain my own daughter will have similar experiences.
Next time, please do an article on actual research (there are several, university based psychological studies that have been done on the long term impacts of pageantry on the women who participate) instead of your own opinion.

As you can see, I'm not yelling or berating you, nor am I calling you names.  This is because responding to an argument without emotion, and with solid facts is one of the many things that pageantry taught me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My daughter has begged me to do one of these pageants for a while now and I&#8217;m going to say yes.  She&#8217;s 10 years old, a well-rounded child, a good student, well behaved, respects herself and has good self esteem.</p>
<p>I also did many pageants in my teens and I am an educated, well rounded person myself with a great career, wonderful husband and healthy relationships.  I&#8217;m sorry to say I have none of the issues that you are projecting these girls may have.  Pageants were a definitive and positive experience in my life that opened many, many doors an opportunities for me.  I am grateful to have done them and I&#8217;m certain my own daughter will have similar experiences.<br />
Next time, please do an article on actual research (there are several, university based psychological studies that have been done on the long term impacts of pageantry on the women who participate) instead of your own opinion.</p>
<p>As you can see, I&#8217;m not yelling or berating you, nor am I calling you names.  This is because responding to an argument without emotion, and with solid facts is one of the many things that pageantry taught me.</p>
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		<title>By: Supposed Frumpy NaNa</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-32384</link>
		<dc:creator>Supposed Frumpy NaNa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-32384</guid>
		<description>Nice, that it would be your choice, and keyword being your choice for your daughter to not partcipate in a pageant, would you take the time to discuss and listen with her, as to if it would be HER choice.  That is what it all comes down to, being the girls choice, not the parent.  Or in most circumstances it should be the girls choice as to her partcipation or not.  

Afterall, it is her doing the public speaking, writing the essays, performing the talent, the community service projects, etc.  Well, you just sit back and relish in yours being a pretty scientist, and I will sit back for years and relish in knowing mine grew up being a pretty, smart national queen, who was involved in hundreds of community service projects and things, with super enhanced public speaking skills and things she learned while she chose to partcipate in pageants which helped her a long the way in her career choices of being a pretty, smart CSI Investigator or Teacher, whichever of the she choses to be.  Afterall, it is her choice if she wants to partcipate or not, just like her path in life will be what she wants, not what anyone else wants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice, that it would be your choice, and keyword being your choice for your daughter to not partcipate in a pageant, would you take the time to discuss and listen with her, as to if it would be HER choice.  That is what it all comes down to, being the girls choice, not the parent.  Or in most circumstances it should be the girls choice as to her partcipation or not.  </p>
<p>Afterall, it is her doing the public speaking, writing the essays, performing the talent, the community service projects, etc.  Well, you just sit back and relish in yours being a pretty scientist, and I will sit back for years and relish in knowing mine grew up being a pretty, smart national queen, who was involved in hundreds of community service projects and things, with super enhanced public speaking skills and things she learned while she chose to partcipate in pageants which helped her a long the way in her career choices of being a pretty, smart CSI Investigator or Teacher, whichever of the she choses to be.  Afterall, it is her choice if she wants to partcipate or not, just like her path in life will be what she wants, not what anyone else wants.</p>
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		<title>By: projektleiterin</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-32303</link>
		<dc:creator>projektleiterin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-32303</guid>
		<description>I refuse to read comments without paragraphs!

Cheerleaders also have the reputation of being pretty and dumb while what they do is in fact quite a tough sport that requires a lot of discipline. Anyway, I have no real clue, I don't know any cheerleaders.

I still would not want my daughter to participate in any beauty contest though, and certainly not at that young age. I think I'd rather want her to be a pretty scientist than a smart beauty queen. The focus is different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I refuse to read comments without paragraphs!</p>
<p>Cheerleaders also have the reputation of being pretty and dumb while what they do is in fact quite a tough sport that requires a lot of discipline. Anyway, I have no real clue, I don&#8217;t know any cheerleaders.</p>
<p>I still would not want my daughter to participate in any beauty contest though, and certainly not at that young age. I think I&#8217;d rather want her to be a pretty scientist than a smart beauty queen. The focus is different.</p>
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		<title>By: Supposed Frumpy Nana</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-32271</link>
		<dc:creator>Supposed Frumpy Nana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-32271</guid>
		<description>"Some people are obviously extremely sensitive to any suggestion that the life they’ve chosen for their daughters might not be the best option. I don’t think a career whose value was self-evident would produce such angry defensiveness."  

First of all  partcipating in a Pageant is NOT LIFE anyone has chosen for their daughter or children. Children do grow up and set their dreams and goals for their life no differently than their parents, sibilings, grandparents, whatever family member does.  Participation is NOT Forced it is offered, discussed and chosen as just that, a partcipation, not a LIFE Chosen Career.  Partcipation is simply a chosen extra curricular activity chosen to partcipate the same as if they chose, Ballet, Tumbling, Soccer, Pom Poms or Band.  If anything is being produced in a rather upset and angry position, it is for the mere fact that Erich as well as now yourself is saying our daughters, granddaughters, nieces, sisters, cousins, whatever the family relationship is being forced into participation in pageants as their life career.  Maybe there are some who do force and chose, however, Not everyone does, it is not a life or death matter, it is simply an extra curricular activity that their child likes to do, nothing more and nothing less.  Children always say when they are old enough to speak and start understanding jobs and positions during play, if a little girl, all want to be a princess or a queen, or a nurse, or a teacher, or a doctor, little boys, want to be firemen, policemen, soldiers, astronauts etc.  By purchasing them certain toys to play with, are parents chosing and forcing them into those careers/fields by purchasing those toys for birthdays, christmas etc.  Instead of just throwing everyone into the same pot and saying this is how it is for everyone and anyone who partcipates in any way, shape or form for a pageant, that people are trying to live through their children, or force them into a Miss America Career path,Erich should do a lot more research into the subject as to actually sitting down and talking with different groups of parents and girls involved.  As I stated before, my grandchild won her National Queen Title when she was 4 yrs old, she showed no skin, she wore no make-up, fake hair, fake teeth anything in that fashion whatsoever, she was 100% real and nothing more than a 4 yr old who likes to dress up in frilly little dresses and be a princess like Disney's Princesses.  She clocks a lot of hours doing community service, visiting with elderly, collecting money to help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Diabetes and for the American Heart Association.  She saves her piggy bank money to sponsor a little girl her same age out of Africa with Aids every month, she collects money as a Jr Spokesperson for a National Organization that helps Children of Natural Disasters, she supports the Military by doing collections and donations to them, she is constantly donating time and food to local food banks to help less fortunate people, she collected, purchased and donated christmas toys to less fortunate children this past christmas out of her own birthday money and christmas money, she helps at Animal Shelters, she pretty much does everything and besides being taught these great values to help others by her family, she learned to respect them and love them from her partcipation in the pageant program she has been invollved in.  She learns a dual education weekly, she is taught in both english and japanese to read, write and speak, she gets great grades, has tons of friends and is proud of what she is learning and accomplishing from helping others.  She is not conceited, she is not forced or made to do anything that is not appropriate for her.  She is a care-free souled child who just simply likes to do what she likes to do.  She is very out-spoken and taught by her NaNa to keep it real and say what she thinks and mean what she says, and if she ever said, I do not want to partcipate in a pageant again, or win titles again, it would be the end of it.  No-one would force her to continue, and it clearly is not going to be her life career, it simply is an extra curricular event she enjoys partcipating in, in her youth.  What she as well as so many other of her sister queens will carry with them into their adulthood is nothing more than great friendships that will never die and great memories of achievements and awards they received and a great and pure soul and heart in a very shady society that they live in now in their youth, that they did hours of community service to help others achieve things they need.   Once again, I say Thank God for Dream Girls USA, Thank God for all of the great and outstanding famillies we have met invovled with Dream Girls USA and Thank God for my Beautiful, Little National Dream Girls USA Queen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Some people are obviously extremely sensitive to any suggestion that the life they’ve chosen for their daughters might not be the best option. I don’t think a career whose value was self-evident would produce such angry defensiveness.&#8221;  </p>
<p>First of all  partcipating in a Pageant is NOT LIFE anyone has chosen for their daughter or children. Children do grow up and set their dreams and goals for their life no differently than their parents, sibilings, grandparents, whatever family member does.  Participation is NOT Forced it is offered, discussed and chosen as just that, a partcipation, not a LIFE Chosen Career.  Partcipation is simply a chosen extra curricular activity chosen to partcipate the same as if they chose, Ballet, Tumbling, Soccer, Pom Poms or Band.  If anything is being produced in a rather upset and angry position, it is for the mere fact that Erich as well as now yourself is saying our daughters, granddaughters, nieces, sisters, cousins, whatever the family relationship is being forced into participation in pageants as their life career.  Maybe there are some who do force and chose, however, Not everyone does, it is not a life or death matter, it is simply an extra curricular activity that their child likes to do, nothing more and nothing less.  Children always say when they are old enough to speak and start understanding jobs and positions during play, if a little girl, all want to be a princess or a queen, or a nurse, or a teacher, or a doctor, little boys, want to be firemen, policemen, soldiers, astronauts etc.  By purchasing them certain toys to play with, are parents chosing and forcing them into those careers/fields by purchasing those toys for birthdays, christmas etc.  Instead of just throwing everyone into the same pot and saying this is how it is for everyone and anyone who partcipates in any way, shape or form for a pageant, that people are trying to live through their children, or force them into a Miss America Career path,Erich should do a lot more research into the subject as to actually sitting down and talking with different groups of parents and girls involved.  As I stated before, my grandchild won her National Queen Title when she was 4 yrs old, she showed no skin, she wore no make-up, fake hair, fake teeth anything in that fashion whatsoever, she was 100% real and nothing more than a 4 yr old who likes to dress up in frilly little dresses and be a princess like Disney&#8217;s Princesses.  She clocks a lot of hours doing community service, visiting with elderly, collecting money to help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Diabetes and for the American Heart Association.  She saves her piggy bank money to sponsor a little girl her same age out of Africa with Aids every month, she collects money as a Jr Spokesperson for a National Organization that helps Children of Natural Disasters, she supports the Military by doing collections and donations to them, she is constantly donating time and food to local food banks to help less fortunate people, she collected, purchased and donated christmas toys to less fortunate children this past christmas out of her own birthday money and christmas money, she helps at Animal Shelters, she pretty much does everything and besides being taught these great values to help others by her family, she learned to respect them and love them from her partcipation in the pageant program she has been invollved in.  She learns a dual education weekly, she is taught in both english and japanese to read, write and speak, she gets great grades, has tons of friends and is proud of what she is learning and accomplishing from helping others.  She is not conceited, she is not forced or made to do anything that is not appropriate for her.  She is a care-free souled child who just simply likes to do what she likes to do.  She is very out-spoken and taught by her NaNa to keep it real and say what she thinks and mean what she says, and if she ever said, I do not want to partcipate in a pageant again, or win titles again, it would be the end of it.  No-one would force her to continue, and it clearly is not going to be her life career, it simply is an extra curricular event she enjoys partcipating in, in her youth.  What she as well as so many other of her sister queens will carry with them into their adulthood is nothing more than great friendships that will never die and great memories of achievements and awards they received and a great and pure soul and heart in a very shady society that they live in now in their youth, that they did hours of community service to help others achieve things they need.   Once again, I say Thank God for Dream Girls USA, Thank God for all of the great and outstanding famillies we have met invovled with Dream Girls USA and Thank God for my Beautiful, Little National Dream Girls USA Queen.</p>
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		<title>By: Vicki Baker</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-31752</link>
		<dc:creator>Vicki Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:38:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-31752</guid>
		<description>I still think it's totally unfair that boys don't get to practice how to be shallow, superficial people-pleasers too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still think it&#8217;s totally unfair that boys don&#8217;t get to practice how to be shallow, superficial people-pleasers too!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Tiedemann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-31741</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Tiedemann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-31741</guid>
		<description>The question for the Pageant Parents is simple:  is this something kids would "create" on their own without the direct introduction and encouragement of the parents?  As opposed to learning for a purpose (math, science, history, table manners...) this kind of thing is definitely "play."  And I'm sure kids have fun with it----kids can, if given a chance, figure out how to have fun with almost anything.  But that's not the point, is it?  This is the equivalent of dad shoving junior into Little League, not so much because the kid has a passion for baseball, but because dad is reliving his "glory years"---or, more likely, dad is trying to live a glory he never had.  While most kids come through this fine, a significant percentage experience it as a distorting practice that borders on abuse.

And I'm sorry---this is about Glamour, is it not?  And Glamour is nothing with the implicit sexuality of the thing glamourized.  This is like saying that cheerleaders aren't out there to pump the guys up sexually.  That's nonsense and we all know it---otherwise there would still be male cheerleaders, which at one time there were.

If that's what you're okay with, then fine, don't get all defensive.  But be real.  This is tuning the little girls up for Miss America pageants, and despite the protests, we all know that the most anticipated and watched part of that pageant is the swimsuit part.  (If they could get away with it, there would be a nude component.)

Given the length of the angry responses to Erich's piece, I'd say "thou doest protest too much."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question for the Pageant Parents is simple:  is this something kids would &#8220;create&#8221; on their own without the direct introduction and encouragement of the parents?  As opposed to learning for a purpose (math, science, history, table manners&#8230;) this kind of thing is definitely &#8220;play.&#8221;  And I&#8217;m sure kids have fun with it&#8212;-kids can, if given a chance, figure out how to have fun with almost anything.  But that&#8217;s not the point, is it?  This is the equivalent of dad shoving junior into Little League, not so much because the kid has a passion for baseball, but because dad is reliving his &#8220;glory years&#8221;&#8212;or, more likely, dad is trying to live a glory he never had.  While most kids come through this fine, a significant percentage experience it as a distorting practice that borders on abuse.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m sorry&#8212;this is about Glamour, is it not?  And Glamour is nothing with the implicit sexuality of the thing glamourized.  This is like saying that cheerleaders aren&#8217;t out there to pump the guys up sexually.  That&#8217;s nonsense and we all know it&#8212;otherwise there would still be male cheerleaders, which at one time there were.</p>
<p>If that&#8217;s what you&#8217;re okay with, then fine, don&#8217;t get all defensive.  But be real.  This is tuning the little girls up for Miss America pageants, and despite the protests, we all know that the most anticipated and watched part of that pageant is the swimsuit part.  (If they could get away with it, there would be a nude component.)</p>
<p>Given the length of the angry responses to Erich&#8217;s piece, I&#8217;d say &#8220;thou doest protest too much.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Randie</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-31716</link>
		<dc:creator>Randie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-31716</guid>
		<description>How very interesting, Ebonmuse, that you take issue with people disagreeing with Erich and describe it as angry defensiveness.  If a person disagrees with another, and provides support for their position, then accroding to you, it means not only defensive behavior but a realization  that their choices are wrong for their daughters.  Any career may be self-evident in its value to some and not to others.  if you read my post, you would see i am an attorney.  Many people, and some for valid reasons, do not like attorneys--does that mean if i defend my chosen career, then its value is less than obvious?  I often have to defend being an attorney with some degreee of force--again, does mean I am angry and defensive?  According to your logic, if we disagree with Erich, it merely serves to prove his point.  Since my pageant queen, who is 13, captain of her poms team, a great lakes Scholar, selcetd as a member of the national Junior Honor Society, a staright A student and who has logged over 300 hours of community service does not need anyone to defend her--her accomplishments speak for themselves.  However, when an uninformed person takes pot shots at an actvity that has brought her nothing but joy, friendship, poise, confidence and pure out and out fun, then yes, I guess i do become a tad defensive.  If your child played a team sport, and someone said it was an exploitation of your child without ever watching a single game do you think you might be defensive, also?  I made well reasoned arguments in my post and did not "screech."  If you disagree with my points, that is your option, but it does not mean that if you do, I am being defensive.  i was also raised--and am raising my daughter--to be polite to people and not name call, yet you and Erich refer to the opionions of other people as "screeching" merely because they express a different point of view.  Not all pageants are the same, just as not all sports programs are the same.  I will also point out that as a prosector for 16 years of my career, I regualarly prosecuted parents, often moms, who got in fights with other parents and with teen age referees over some call, and these fights often ended with punches thrown, in front of their children.  Does that mean all sports programs are bad?  does that mean that anyone who thinks perhaps you should not get in fistfights in front of your children is angry and defensive?  of course not, and likewise, neitherdoes disagreeing with Erich mean I am either of those things.  This is not a life for my daughter, it is a hobby she enjoys.  There is nothingsexual or exploitative about it.  She wears a gown, a dance costume for her talent routine, a suit for her interview and a dress to model in, with no skin showing besides shoulders, arms and legs--just as in any team uniform.  My daughter, who loes to be on a stage and is a comeptitoion irish dancer,w ants to be a marine biologist, and has enough self respect tto defend herself against bullying at school, and not run to her mother for help.  Yes, pageants have helped teach her that, along with lessons from me and her dancing--it is a complete package.  She has learned to help others--yes of course she could have done that without pageants, but the pageants proviced a path for her to travel.  My daughter is not perfect, nor am I, but accrording to you and Erich, if we disagree with your point of view, then that is proof that we are wrong.  Such flawed logic.  I do not know if Erich has actually seen a live pageant, or spoken to any of the participants, but he would learn much about the system if he did.    My daughtr is posied, thoughtful, giving, bright, confident and able to speak and perform in  front of hundreds of people--sounds like waht any parent would want in their child.  Many of thsoe qualities she had before pageants, but pageants have encouraged and developed them and given her the confidence she needs to succeed in life.  A career whose value is self-evident sometimes does need defending, which is all anyone tried to do here.  Teen age girls like malls,a nd so do many of their moms--does that mean we are all shallow?  Perhaps a bit of an overegeneralization.  Let me reiterate that my pageant girl has straight As, hangs out at malls,a nd does community service every week--I do not see any floundering there.  She is a role model to younger girls, a good friend, a tireless worker at school--she is now in her seond hour of homework after performing her poms routine at the girls' basketball game today.  as far fromshallow as you can get.  I amnot sure what else you would want in a teenage daughter, butfor me I think mine has just about any good quality you can suggest, and many of those qualities were and are enhanced by her pageant experience.  Meet some of the girls and really find out the facts--again, isn't that what a journalist is supposed to do, rather than just discuss things they know nothing about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How very interesting, Ebonmuse, that you take issue with people disagreeing with Erich and describe it as angry defensiveness.  If a person disagrees with another, and provides support for their position, then accroding to you, it means not only defensive behavior but a realization  that their choices are wrong for their daughters.  Any career may be self-evident in its value to some and not to others.  if you read my post, you would see i am an attorney.  Many people, and some for valid reasons, do not like attorneys&#8211;does that mean if i defend my chosen career, then its value is less than obvious?  I often have to defend being an attorney with some degreee of force&#8211;again, does mean I am angry and defensive?  According to your logic, if we disagree with Erich, it merely serves to prove his point.  Since my pageant queen, who is 13, captain of her poms team, a great lakes Scholar, selcetd as a member of the national Junior Honor Society, a staright A student and who has logged over 300 hours of community service does not need anyone to defend her&#8211;her accomplishments speak for themselves.  However, when an uninformed person takes pot shots at an actvity that has brought her nothing but joy, friendship, poise, confidence and pure out and out fun, then yes, I guess i do become a tad defensive.  If your child played a team sport, and someone said it was an exploitation of your child without ever watching a single game do you think you might be defensive, also?  I made well reasoned arguments in my post and did not &#8220;screech.&#8221;  If you disagree with my points, that is your option, but it does not mean that if you do, I am being defensive.  i was also raised&#8211;and am raising my daughter&#8211;to be polite to people and not name call, yet you and Erich refer to the opionions of other people as &#8220;screeching&#8221; merely because they express a different point of view.  Not all pageants are the same, just as not all sports programs are the same.  I will also point out that as a prosector for 16 years of my career, I regualarly prosecuted parents, often moms, who got in fights with other parents and with teen age referees over some call, and these fights often ended with punches thrown, in front of their children.  Does that mean all sports programs are bad?  does that mean that anyone who thinks perhaps you should not get in fistfights in front of your children is angry and defensive?  of course not, and likewise, neitherdoes disagreeing with Erich mean I am either of those things.  This is not a life for my daughter, it is a hobby she enjoys.  There is nothingsexual or exploitative about it.  She wears a gown, a dance costume for her talent routine, a suit for her interview and a dress to model in, with no skin showing besides shoulders, arms and legs&#8211;just as in any team uniform.  My daughter, who loes to be on a stage and is a comeptitoion irish dancer,w ants to be a marine biologist, and has enough self respect tto defend herself against bullying at school, and not run to her mother for help.  Yes, pageants have helped teach her that, along with lessons from me and her dancing&#8211;it is a complete package.  She has learned to help others&#8211;yes of course she could have done that without pageants, but the pageants proviced a path for her to travel.  My daughter is not perfect, nor am I, but accrording to you and Erich, if we disagree with your point of view, then that is proof that we are wrong.  Such flawed logic.  I do not know if Erich has actually seen a live pageant, or spoken to any of the participants, but he would learn much about the system if he did.    My daughtr is posied, thoughtful, giving, bright, confident and able to speak and perform in  front of hundreds of people&#8211;sounds like waht any parent would want in their child.  Many of thsoe qualities she had before pageants, but pageants have encouraged and developed them and given her the confidence she needs to succeed in life.  A career whose value is self-evident sometimes does need defending, which is all anyone tried to do here.  Teen age girls like malls,a nd so do many of their moms&#8211;does that mean we are all shallow?  Perhaps a bit of an overegeneralization.  Let me reiterate that my pageant girl has straight As, hangs out at malls,a nd does community service every week&#8211;I do not see any floundering there.  She is a role model to younger girls, a good friend, a tireless worker at school&#8211;she is now in her seond hour of homework after performing her poms routine at the girls&#8217; basketball game today.  as far fromshallow as you can get.  I amnot sure what else you would want in a teenage daughter, butfor me I think mine has just about any good quality you can suggest, and many of those qualities were and are enhanced by her pageant experience.  Meet some of the girls and really find out the facts&#8211;again, isn&#8217;t that what a journalist is supposed to do, rather than just discuss things they know nothing about.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/07/04/would-you-like-your-young-daughter-to-be-the-next-dream-girl-usa/comment-page-1/#comment-31554</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 06:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2823#comment-31554</guid>
		<description>Ebonmuse:  You didn't even see all of the "screeching."   I excised a bit of it that was pure ad hominem.    I haven't seen this much passion since I criticized "homeopathic medicines."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ebonmuse:  You didn&#8217;t even see all of the &#8220;screeching.&#8221;   I excised a bit of it that was pure ad hominem.    I haven&#8217;t seen this much passion since I criticized &#8220;homeopathic medicines.&#8221;</p>
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