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	<title>Comments on: Historical Contingency Proven in Labs, then Behe blathers.</title>
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	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-20041</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-20041</guid>
		<description>I linked to it on BadScience instead of Conservapedia because the latter is very likely to get edited or removed. It is also available at PandasThumb, and &lt;a href="http://acandidworld.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/beneficial-mutations-in-bacteria-wherein-conservapedia-is-pwned-take-ii-andy-schlaflys-lawyer-gambit-fails/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"&gt;discussed at ACandidWorld&lt;/a&gt; in terms of legal maneuvers vs. Science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I linked to it on BadScience instead of Conservapedia because the latter is very likely to get edited or removed. It is also available at PandasThumb, and <a href="http://acandidworld.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/beneficial-mutations-in-bacteria-wherein-conservapedia-is-pwned-take-ii-andy-schlaflys-lawyer-gambit-fails/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">discussed at ACandidWorld</a> in terms of legal maneuvers vs. Science.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-20025</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-20025</guid>
		<description>And here's the link directly to Conservapedia.  This exchange between the voice of fundamentalism (Conservapedia) and the voice of science and reason (Lenski) should not be missed.  Lenski shows more than a reasonable amount of patience with the oafs, at least for awhile.  http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Lenski_dialog</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And here&#8217;s the link directly to Conservapedia.  This exchange between the voice of fundamentalism (Conservapedia) and the voice of science and reason (Lenski) should not be missed.  Lenski shows more than a reasonable amount of patience with the oafs, at least for awhile.  <a href="http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Lenski_dialog" rel="nofollow">http://www.conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Lenski_dialog</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-20016</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-20016</guid>
		<description>Here is posted a great set of responses by the researcher/author to attacks from &lt;a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/03/14/conservapedia-providing-aid-to-the-obscurationists/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"&gt;Conservapedia&lt;/a&gt; (an anti-science wiki by Phyllis Schalfly's kid): &lt;a href="http://www.badscience.net/2008/06/all-time-classic-creationist-pwnage/" title="Bad Science Blog post" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"&gt;All time classic creationist pwnage&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is posted a great set of responses by the researcher/author to attacks from <a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/03/14/conservapedia-providing-aid-to-the-obscurationists/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Conservapedia</a> (an anti-science wiki by Phyllis Schalfly&#8217;s kid): <a href="http://www.badscience.net/2008/06/all-time-classic-creationist-pwnage/" title="Bad Science Blog post" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">All time classic creationist pwnage</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-19449</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-19449</guid>
		<description>Here's another look at this study and it's detractors from &lt;a href="http://aigbusted.blogspot.com/2008/06/michael-behe-evolution-and-information.html" target=_blank" title="Answers in Genesis (Busted) post" rel="nofollow"&gt;AiGBusted&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s another look at this study and it&#8217;s detractors from <a href="http://aigbusted.blogspot.com/2008/06/michael-behe-evolution-and-information.html" target=_blank" title="Answers in Genesis (Busted) post" rel="nofollow">AiGBusted</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-19384</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-19384</guid>
		<description>Thx Ben. Now I see how an extra "E" changed a winner to a wiener,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thx Ben. Now I see how an extra &#8220;E&#8221; changed a winner to a wiener,</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-19350</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-19350</guid>
		<description>The degree of complexity is not predictable, nor an indicator of superiority. An amoeba has dozens of times more DNA than does a human; much more complex.

The exact direction that a population will take is not predictable. However, the central tendency of the potential directions of a population given known starting conditions is predictable, within the rules of chaos theory.

Of the 20 strains in the experiment, one developed the two particular precursors that had no evolutionary advantage which, in turn allowed the mutation that provided an advantage to occur. Given the first 2, the third became likely. That third change may well have happened in other populations, but without the precursors, it conveyed no advantage, and therefore was not expressed.

Because the first two gave no advantage, it took about 30,000 generations to have those first two available in one population when the change that conferred the advantage happened. The advantaged genes then propagated more vigorously and became obvious, expressed. They restarted cultures from the saved generation in which that pair occurred, and ran that culture forward a number of times. Sometimes, the advantage then occurred again. Not always.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The degree of complexity is not predictable, nor an indicator of superiority. An amoeba has dozens of times more DNA than does a human; much more complex.</p>
<p>The exact direction that a population will take is not predictable. However, the central tendency of the potential directions of a population given known starting conditions is predictable, within the rules of chaos theory.</p>
<p>Of the 20 strains in the experiment, one developed the two particular precursors that had no evolutionary advantage which, in turn allowed the mutation that provided an advantage to occur. Given the first 2, the third became likely. That third change may well have happened in other populations, but without the precursors, it conveyed no advantage, and therefore was not expressed.</p>
<p>Because the first two gave no advantage, it took about 30,000 generations to have those first two available in one population when the change that conferred the advantage happened. The advantaged genes then propagated more vigorously and became obvious, expressed. They restarted cultures from the saved generation in which that pair occurred, and ran that culture forward a number of times. Sometimes, the advantage then occurred again. Not always.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-19334</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-19334</guid>
		<description>Dan: Perhaps you can sense my confusion.   After all, the study shows that is a statistical chance of following a particular path, but contingency upon the occurrence of other steps occurring.   The question, then, is where to put the emphasis: the path or the contingency.   It seems like it would be a continuum, with simpler organisms being more predictable, with Gould being more correct when it comes to more complex life forms.  Is this how you read the study?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan: Perhaps you can sense my confusion.   After all, the study shows that is a statistical chance of following a particular path, but contingency upon the occurrence of other steps occurring.   The question, then, is where to put the emphasis: the path or the contingency.   It seems like it would be a continuum, with simpler organisms being more predictable, with Gould being more correct when it comes to more complex life forms.  Is this how you read the study?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-19332</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-19332</guid>
		<description>Anti-spam word is "Dan". :)
Anyway, PZ is very particular about the spelling of his name... Myers Myers Myers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anti-spam word is &#8220;Dan&#8221;. <img src='http://dangerousintersection.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Anyway, PZ is very particular about the spelling of his name&#8230; Myers Myers Myers</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-19321</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-19321</guid>
		<description>Behe reminds us that flogging the scientifically dead horse of Intelligent Design continues to draw attention, and still encourages many people to bet on it as it rots on the field.

This experiment vindicates Gould, not disproves. There is only a statistical chance of evolution following any particular path given identical germ material and conditions. But any step is contingent on certain other steps having been followed before, ie: Historical Contingency. That was Gould's conjecture; his hypothesis. Now demonstrated conclusively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Behe reminds us that flogging the scientifically dead horse of Intelligent Design continues to draw attention, and still encourages many people to bet on it as it rots on the field.</p>
<p>This experiment vindicates Gould, not disproves. There is only a statistical chance of evolution following any particular path given identical germ material and conditions. But any step is contingent on certain other steps having been followed before, ie: Historical Contingency. That was Gould&#8217;s conjecture; his hypothesis. Now demonstrated conclusively.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/06/10/historical-contingency-proven-in-labs-then-behe-blathers/#comment-19310</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 04:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2741#comment-19310</guid>
		<description>I'm surprised that evolutionary biologists still pay any attention to Michael Behe.  He's like the Ann Coulter of EB--outrageously wrong all too often.   I don't get it, except, perhaps he serves as a fairly steady baseline for measuring true progress.

This was a terrific experiment and you have to admire the extent to which it traced evolution for such an incredibly long period of time.  But I'm also fuzzy on whether this result truly disproves S.J. Gould.   I'm assuming that Gould made a strong claim that what happened in the experiment wouldn't happen--or am I misreading Gould?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised that evolutionary biologists still pay any attention to Michael Behe.  He&#8217;s like the Ann Coulter of EB&#8211;outrageously wrong all too often.   I don&#8217;t get it, except, perhaps he serves as a fairly steady baseline for measuring true progress.</p>
<p>This was a terrific experiment and you have to admire the extent to which it traced evolution for such an incredibly long period of time.  But I&#8217;m also fuzzy on whether this result truly disproves S.J. Gould.   I&#8217;m assuming that Gould made a strong claim that what happened in the experiment wouldn&#8217;t happen&#8211;or am I misreading Gould?</p>
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