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	<title>Comments on: What to do about all of those college students who aren&#8217;t qualified to go to college.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/19/what-to-do-about-all-of-those-college-students-who-arent-qualified-to-go-to-college/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/19/what-to-do-about-all-of-those-college-students-who-arent-qualified-to-go-to-college/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 12:19:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/19/what-to-do-about-all-of-those-college-students-who-arent-qualified-to-go-to-college/#comment-18686</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 14:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2611#comment-18686</guid>
		<description>A college degree is useful as an indicator to an employer that one can be taught. It is easy to coast through our K-12 school system without absorbing more then minimal literacy. But a college degree indicates that one can pay attention and learn by intention. 

I've met many degreed (and even certified) engineers who are clueless about how things work. But they can still be trained to be useful in a specialty. I also know un-degreed individuals who can design circles around some engineers, even if they only have an intuitive understanding of the principles so rigidly described in advanced math classes.

Writing to spec is an acquired skill. College is more about learning to learn than about the particular material being presented. English is just a subject.

As for Mark and his authorship: Many degreed authors paid for their school by writing. Crichton became a bestselling author to pay his way through school. Asimov is another example. These guys got advanced degrees in part because they could write, not the other way around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A college degree is useful as an indicator to an employer that one can be taught. It is easy to coast through our K-12 school system without absorbing more then minimal literacy. But a college degree indicates that one can pay attention and learn by intention. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve met many degreed (and even certified) engineers who are clueless about how things work. But they can still be trained to be useful in a specialty. I also know un-degreed individuals who can design circles around some engineers, even if they only have an intuitive understanding of the principles so rigidly described in advanced math classes.</p>
<p>Writing to spec is an acquired skill. College is more about learning to learn than about the particular material being presented. English is just a subject.</p>
<p>As for Mark and his authorship: Many degreed authors paid for their school by writing. Crichton became a bestselling author to pay his way through school. Asimov is another example. These guys got advanced degrees in part because they could write, not the other way around.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Tiedemann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/19/what-to-do-about-all-of-those-college-students-who-arent-qualified-to-go-to-college/#comment-18684</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Tiedemann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 13:10:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2611#comment-18684</guid>
		<description>In the Fifties there was an intense push to create a superior workforce because of the space race with the Soviets.  The G.I. Bill fueled some of this.  Combined with the natural desire of parents to see that their children do better, we created a monster which has now resulted in this absurd "Must Have College Degree To Even Be Considered Housebroken" attitude in business and civil society.  It's been a long time, but I was once rejected for a date because I had no college.

It goes to what seems to be an underlying human desire to Be Accepted without having to demonstrate ability.  The Old School Tie gets you through the door without need for qualifying tests or try-outs.  No one seems to notice that a new job requires additional training regardless of academic background, but it seems also to be more important that everyone share a common experience (college) than that they actually be competent.

This has cost us.

And those parents who so lovingly nurtured this system into being now look at the country they helped create and scratch their heads and wonder why Americans can't actually seem to make things anymore.  (Because the "trades" were seen as lower class---"I don 't want my kid to have to get his fingers dirty just to make a living!")  The vocational education system was all but destroyed by the beginning of the 70s (it was seen as somehow discriminatory to "slot" kids into vocational tracks just because it appeared they couldn't handle academics) and industry began pitching over the side its most qualified people when they did not have degrees.

I find myself in a peculiar position because of this culture.  I am a writer.  I've published ten novels, scads of short stories, and I'm now book reviewing for the Post-Dispatch.  I have taught workshops.  I am the president of a state-wide non-profit agency (Missouri Center for the Book).  Etc etc etc.  99% of the jobs I can probably do I can't apply for because I have no college.

The college degree has become the basis of a new kind of classism.  Sorting people into groups---In or Out---seems to be human nature and now that we've dispensed with race, religion, or regionalism as valid markers, college/no college has emerged to take their place.

This is one we could conceivably nip in the bud---or at least the stalk---before it really does undo us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the Fifties there was an intense push to create a superior workforce because of the space race with the Soviets.  The G.I. Bill fueled some of this.  Combined with the natural desire of parents to see that their children do better, we created a monster which has now resulted in this absurd &#8220;Must Have College Degree To Even Be Considered Housebroken&#8221; attitude in business and civil society.  It&#8217;s been a long time, but I was once rejected for a date because I had no college.</p>
<p>It goes to what seems to be an underlying human desire to Be Accepted without having to demonstrate ability.  The Old School Tie gets you through the door without need for qualifying tests or try-outs.  No one seems to notice that a new job requires additional training regardless of academic background, but it seems also to be more important that everyone share a common experience (college) than that they actually be competent.</p>
<p>This has cost us.</p>
<p>And those parents who so lovingly nurtured this system into being now look at the country they helped create and scratch their heads and wonder why Americans can&#8217;t actually seem to make things anymore.  (Because the &#8220;trades&#8221; were seen as lower class&#8212;&#8221;I don &#8216;t want my kid to have to get his fingers dirty just to make a living!&#8221;)  The vocational education system was all but destroyed by the beginning of the 70s (it was seen as somehow discriminatory to &#8220;slot&#8221; kids into vocational tracks just because it appeared they couldn&#8217;t handle academics) and industry began pitching over the side its most qualified people when they did not have degrees.</p>
<p>I find myself in a peculiar position because of this culture.  I am a writer.  I&#8217;ve published ten novels, scads of short stories, and I&#8217;m now book reviewing for the Post-Dispatch.  I have taught workshops.  I am the president of a state-wide non-profit agency (Missouri Center for the Book).  Etc etc etc.  99% of the jobs I can probably do I can&#8217;t apply for because I have no college.</p>
<p>The college degree has become the basis of a new kind of classism.  Sorting people into groups&#8212;In or Out&#8212;seems to be human nature and now that we&#8217;ve dispensed with race, religion, or regionalism as valid markers, college/no college has emerged to take their place.</p>
<p>This is one we could conceivably nip in the bud&#8212;or at least the stalk&#8212;before it really does undo us.</p>
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		<title>By: Erika Price</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/19/what-to-do-about-all-of-those-college-students-who-arent-qualified-to-go-to-college/#comment-18658</link>
		<dc:creator>Erika Price</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 17:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2611#comment-18658</guid>
		<description>Didn't the onus once fall on the high school level English teachers to "lower the hammer"? But an instructor feels so much pressure to let a mediocre or terrible student slide! It reflects poorly on the teacher to have a large group of failures, and it reflects poorly on the academic institution. And most instructors probably feel some tug of sympathy for these struggling students, those failures who truly fail out of lacking skill, not lacking interest. The professor shouldn't &lt;i&gt;have&lt;/i&gt; to lower the hammer; the illiterate apples should have been hammered-out years ago. But the other hammers have failed to fall. He deserves a lot of credit, I think, for having the nerve tell the painful truth. Who else will? Will these terrible students never realize their horrendous writing skill until their employer fires them for it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t the onus once fall on the high school level English teachers to &#8220;lower the hammer&#8221;? But an instructor feels so much pressure to let a mediocre or terrible student slide! It reflects poorly on the teacher to have a large group of failures, and it reflects poorly on the academic institution. And most instructors probably feel some tug of sympathy for these struggling students, those failures who truly fail out of lacking skill, not lacking interest. The professor shouldn&#8217;t <i>have</i> to lower the hammer; the illiterate apples should have been hammered-out years ago. But the other hammers have failed to fall. He deserves a lot of credit, I think, for having the nerve tell the painful truth. Who else will? Will these terrible students never realize their horrendous writing skill until their employer fires them for it?</p>
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