Comments on: An American Problem http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/13/an-american-problem/ Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:29:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Dan Klarmann http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/13/an-american-problem/#comment-18551 Dan Klarmann Thu, 15 May 2008 17:09:41 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2580#comment-18551 I concede that Vicki's credentials in language, history, and education culture trump my meager degrees. I may well be leaning too far past center on the topic of religion, in futile hope of trimming the cultural ballast. Vicki has generally been accurate whenever puncturing my pretensions over the last 24 years. I did not claim that the original primary aim of the separation was to "keep unruly religious minorities in check". But the founders were well aware of the 17th century religious excesses in the colonies, as well as many other times and places. Things go bad quickly when one faith becomes official. Liberty of conscience can only be available if there is no moral arbiter in government. We are currently fighting to keep such arbiters from having control in the U.S. The only legal tool we have is this thin argument of separation between church and state. The current battleground (and this comes back to Ruse's point) is over the secular validity of teaching forms of Creationism in public schools instead of, or as well as, conclusions from science. I concede that Vicki’s credentials in language, history, and education culture trump my meager degrees. I may well be leaning too far past center on the topic of religion, in futile hope of trimming the cultural ballast. Vicki has generally been accurate whenever puncturing my pretensions over the last 24 years.

I did not claim that the original primary aim of the separation was to “keep unruly religious minorities in check”. But the founders were well aware of the 17th century religious excesses in the colonies, as well as many other times and places. Things go bad quickly when one faith becomes official.

Liberty of conscience can only be available if there is no moral arbiter in government. We are currently fighting to keep such arbiters from having control in the U.S. The only legal tool we have is this thin argument of separation between church and state.

The current battleground (and this comes back to Ruse’s point) is over the secular validity of teaching forms of Creationism in public schools instead of, or as well as, conclusions from science.

]]> By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/13/an-american-problem/#comment-18548 Erich Vieth Thu, 15 May 2008 15:59:00 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2580#comment-18548 There's schadenfreude in the air . . . There’s schadenfreude in the air . . .

]]> By: projektleiterin http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/13/an-american-problem/#comment-18543 projektleiterin Thu, 15 May 2008 14:50:02 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2580#comment-18543 Hm, showdown between Dan and Vicki. That might be interesting. *getting out her sundeck chair and some popcorn* :D Hm, showdown between Dan and Vicki. That might be interesting. *getting out her sundeck chair and some popcorn* :D

]]> By: Vicki Baker http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/13/an-american-problem/#comment-18494 Vicki Baker Wed, 14 May 2008 14:50:44 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2580#comment-18494 OK, quibble about percentages if you want. It's true the Puritans came to New England to establish a theocratic utopia in which they sought not only freedom to practice their own religion, but also the freedom to persecute those of other religions. This led to the founding of Rhode Island, the first religion-neutral government in the colonies (perhaps anywhere?) Also, separation of church and state was not something invented out of whole cloth by the "Enlightenment" but was first developed a couple centuries earlier by the Anabaptists as a way to protect the integrity of the church. It's this part that is grossly distorted and misleading: <blockquote> The founding fathers were well aware of this element, and set the nation up to minimize the damage that they can cause, while allowing them to be themselves.</blockquote> Go back to your primary sources. Separation of church and state was not conceived as a way to keep unruly religious minorities in check. Rather, church-state separation was conceived of as essential to protecting a fundamental human right: liberty of conscience. In James Madison's words, separation was "essential to the purity" of both church and state. What you have created here is a mirror version of the Right's myth of a"Christian Nation." OK, quibble about percentages if you want. It’s true the Puritans came to New England to establish a theocratic utopia in which they sought not only freedom to practice their own religion, but also the freedom to persecute those of other religions. This led to the founding of Rhode Island, the first religion-neutral government in the colonies (perhaps anywhere?)

Also, separation of church and state was not something invented out of whole cloth by the “Enlightenment” but was first developed a couple centuries earlier by the Anabaptists as a way to protect the integrity of the church.

It’s this part that is grossly distorted and misleading:

The founding fathers were well aware of this element, and set the nation up to minimize the damage that they can cause, while allowing them to be themselves.

Go back to your primary sources. Separation of church and state was not conceived as a way to keep unruly religious minorities in check.

Rather, church-state separation was conceived of as essential to protecting a fundamental human right: liberty of conscience. In James Madison’s words, separation was “essential to the purity” of both church and state.

What you have created here is a mirror version of the Right’s myth of a”Christian Nation.”

]]> By: Dan Klarmann http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/13/an-american-problem/#comment-18488 Dan Klarmann Wed, 14 May 2008 13:31:40 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2580#comment-18488 "85% fact free"? Puritans were exiled from England and settled here as pilgrims. Nyet? The Enlightenment schooled founding fathers established a separation of Church and State to allow such people to practice their faith, yet not force it on others. T/F? Is it my post or Ruse whose prose you skewer? What is the 3/20 that is not fact free? "85% fact free"? Puritans were exiled from England and settled here as pilgrims. Nyet?
The Enlightenment schooled founding fathers established a separation of Church and State to allow such people to practice their faith, yet not force it on others. T/F?
Is it my post or Ruse whose prose you skewer? What is the 3/20 that is not fact free?

]]> By: Vicki Baker http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/13/an-american-problem/#comment-18472 Vicki Baker Wed, 14 May 2008 05:10:29 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2580#comment-18472 <blockquote>America was settled in part by religious extremists, exiled from England and other countries for their radical beliefs. This culture is diluted, but still present and very vocal. The founding fathers were well aware of this element, and set the nation up to minimize the damage that they can cause, while allowing them to be themselves. </blockquote> This analysis fits in with a nice neat storyline where the forces of secular light do battle with the armies of religious darkness. Unfortunately it's about 85% fact-free, and just as much a distortion of our history as the myth that America is a "Christian nation."

America was settled in part by religious extremists, exiled from England and other countries for their radical beliefs. This culture is diluted, but still present and very vocal. The founding fathers were well aware of this element, and set the nation up to minimize the damage that they can cause, while allowing them to be themselves.

This analysis fits in with a nice neat storyline where the forces of secular light do battle with the armies of religious darkness. Unfortunately it’s about 85% fact-free, and just as much a distortion of our history as the myth that America is a “Christian nation.”

]]> By: Ben http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/05/13/an-american-problem/#comment-18444 Ben Tue, 13 May 2008 16:54:10 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2580#comment-18444 The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. -Albert Einstein For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/einstein_on_gods_and_judaism.php? The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

-Albert Einstein

For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/einstein_on_gods_and_judaism.php?

]]>