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	<title>Comments on: Exposing the Darwinist Conspiracy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17681</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17681</guid>
		<description>Further Expelled exposure:

They are offering rebates per ticket or a chance to win $10,000 for school groups that go during the first 2 weeks of release.
http://www.getexpelled.com/schools.php 

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-04-17.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further Expelled exposure:</p>
<p>They are offering rebates per ticket or a chance to win $10,000 for school groups that go during the first 2 weeks of release.<br />
<a href="http://www.getexpelled.com/schools.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.getexpelled.com/schools.php</a> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-04-17.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-04-17.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17673</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17673</guid>
		<description>Exposing the Expelled conspiracy.  &lt;a href="http://www.expelledexposed.com/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Follow this link.&lt;/a&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exposing the Expelled conspiracy.  <a href="http://www.expelledexposed.com/" rel="nofollow">Follow this link.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17642</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 20:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17642</guid>
		<description>Missouri lawmakers treated to preview of Ben Stein's new movie as HB 1315 (a bill to teach faith based alternatives) makes the rounds.
http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/574558.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Missouri lawmakers treated to preview of Ben Stein&#8217;s new movie as HB 1315 (a bill to teach faith based alternatives) makes the rounds.<br />
<a href="http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/574558.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/574558.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17036</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17036</guid>
		<description>Here is a later account of Myers removal, with many links to views from all sides:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/a_late_night_quick_one.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a later account of Myers removal, with many links to views from all sides:<br />
<a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/a_late_night_quick_one.php" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/a_late_night_quick_one.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17035</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17035</guid>
		<description>I skimmed through the first thousand or so comments about the Myers expulsion from expelled. 
The comments fall firmly into 2 camps: How dare they? vs. Well, of course!

I wonder if there will be a fundamentalist remaining who hasn't seen it by the time it is finally released to the public. Much like the Passion of the Christ, that was publicized and released by the same people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I skimmed through the first thousand or so comments about the Myers expulsion from expelled.<br />
The comments fall firmly into 2 camps: How dare they? vs. Well, of course!</p>
<p>I wonder if there will be a fundamentalist remaining who hasn&#8217;t seen it by the time it is finally released to the public. Much like the Passion of the Christ, that was publicized and released by the same people.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17025</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-17025</guid>
		<description>PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins went to go see Expelled. Security guards recognized PZ and kicked him out of line (expelled?). Dawkins slipped in unnoticed.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins went to go see Expelled. Security guards recognized PZ and kicked him out of line (expelled?). Dawkins slipped in unnoticed.</p>
<p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/expelled.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Franklin</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-16968</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Franklin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-16968</guid>
		<description>This films' main thesis, that anyone in the science community who believes in God, or is a Darwin dissenter is being "expelled" is false at its core.

In a New York Times interview, Walter Ruloff (producer of Expelled) said that researchers, who had studied cellular mechanisms, made findings suggestive of an intelligent designer. "But they are afraid to report them".
Mr. Ruloff also cited Dr. Francis S. Collins, a geneticist who directs the National Human Genome Research Institute and whose book, “The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief”, explains how he came to embrace his Christian faith. &lt;b&gt;Mr. Ruloff said that Dr. Collins separates his religious beliefs from his scientific work only because “he is toeing the party line”.

That’s “just ludicrous,” Dr. Collins said&lt;/b&gt; in a telephone interview. While many of his scientific colleagues are not religious and some are “a bit puzzled” by his faith, he said, “they are generally very respectful.” He said that if the problem Mr. Ruloff describes existed, he is certain he would know about it.

Similarly, Dr. Ken Miller is a professed Christian who wrote "Finding Darwin's God" (which I suggest you read). Dr. Miller has not been "expelled" in any fashion for his belief in God.

The movie tries to make the case that "Big Science" is nothing but a huge atheist conspiracy out to silence believers, but only presents a very one-sided look at some of the Discovery Institute's "martyrs".

&lt;b&gt;Carolyn Crocker "expelled"? - No.&lt;/b&gt;
Her annual teaching contract was not renewed. Was she "fired" for daring to bring God into research? - No. She was hired to teach Cell Biology, and she decided to ignore the schools' curriculum and substitute her own curriculum.

&lt;b&gt;Guillermo Gonzalez "expelled"? - No.&lt;/b&gt;
He was not granted tenure. The film doesn't bring up the fact that in all his years at ISU he had only brought in only a miniscule amount of grant money. Nor does it bring up the fact that in all his years at ISU he failed to mentor a single student through to their PhD. Nor does it mention that in his career at ISU, his previous excellent record of publication had dropped precipitously.

&lt;b&gt;Richard von Sternberg "expelled"? - No.&lt;/b&gt;
Sternberg continues to work for NIH in the same capacity. Of course the movie doesn't bring up his underhanded tactics in getting Meyers work published.

This movie attempts to influence it's viewers with dishonesty, half-truths, and by a completely one-sided presentation of the facts.
 
If a scientists' research is not accepted by the scientific community, it isn't because the scientist either believes or doesn't believe in God or Darwin, it is usually because they are producing bad science. Like the idea of Intelligent Design.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This films&#8217; main thesis, that anyone in the science community who believes in God, or is a Darwin dissenter is being &#8220;expelled&#8221; is false at its core.</p>
<p>In a New York Times interview, Walter Ruloff (producer of Expelled) said that researchers, who had studied cellular mechanisms, made findings suggestive of an intelligent designer. &#8220;But they are afraid to report them&#8221;.<br />
Mr. Ruloff also cited Dr. Francis S. Collins, a geneticist who directs the National Human Genome Research Institute and whose book, “The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief”, explains how he came to embrace his Christian faith. <b>Mr. Ruloff said that Dr. Collins separates his religious beliefs from his scientific work only because “he is toeing the party line”.</p>
<p>That’s “just ludicrous,” Dr. Collins said</b> in a telephone interview. While many of his scientific colleagues are not religious and some are “a bit puzzled” by his faith, he said, “they are generally very respectful.” He said that if the problem Mr. Ruloff describes existed, he is certain he would know about it.</p>
<p>Similarly, Dr. Ken Miller is a professed Christian who wrote &#8220;Finding Darwin&#8217;s God&#8221; (which I suggest you read). Dr. Miller has not been &#8220;expelled&#8221; in any fashion for his belief in God.</p>
<p>The movie tries to make the case that &#8220;Big Science&#8221; is nothing but a huge atheist conspiracy out to silence believers, but only presents a very one-sided look at some of the Discovery Institute&#8217;s &#8220;martyrs&#8221;.</p>
<p><b>Carolyn Crocker &#8220;expelled&#8221;? - No.</b><br />
Her annual teaching contract was not renewed. Was she &#8220;fired&#8221; for daring to bring God into research? - No. She was hired to teach Cell Biology, and she decided to ignore the schools&#8217; curriculum and substitute her own curriculum.</p>
<p><b>Guillermo Gonzalez &#8220;expelled&#8221;? - No.</b><br />
He was not granted tenure. The film doesn&#8217;t bring up the fact that in all his years at ISU he had only brought in only a miniscule amount of grant money. Nor does it bring up the fact that in all his years at ISU he failed to mentor a single student through to their PhD. Nor does it mention that in his career at ISU, his previous excellent record of publication had dropped precipitously.</p>
<p><b>Richard von Sternberg &#8220;expelled&#8221;? - No.</b><br />
Sternberg continues to work for NIH in the same capacity. Of course the movie doesn&#8217;t bring up his underhanded tactics in getting Meyers work published.</p>
<p>This movie attempts to influence it&#8217;s viewers with dishonesty, half-truths, and by a completely one-sided presentation of the facts.</p>
<p>If a scientists&#8217; research is not accepted by the scientific community, it isn&#8217;t because the scientist either believes or doesn&#8217;t believe in God or Darwin, it is usually because they are producing bad science. Like the idea of Intelligent Design.</p>
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		<title>By: Edgar Montrose</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-16935</link>
		<dc:creator>Edgar Montrose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-16935</guid>
		<description>grumpypilgrim: "The result would simply be a stand-off."

I wish that it could be that easy.  While you and I would likely be willing to "agree to disagree" with the fundamentalists, the fundamentalists don't seem to be so accommodating.  Nonbelievers generally tolerate believers quite well; believers, on the other hand, associate all sorts of evil with nonbelievers (and even with other believers who don't believe exactly as they do), and feel no qualms about seeking to harm or destroy them.

grumpypilgrim:  "Accordingly, I think we have to ... address whether the society meets reasonable, objective measures of success ..."

With reference to current societal rejection of objective pursuits such as science and logic, while I acknowledge the correctness of your statement, I do not have high hopes for implementation of what you propose.

grumpypilgrim:  "Sure, the fundies might insist on a metric such as 'sinfulness,' but there is hardly any objective way to measure it."

Well, it's spelled out in the Bible.  Things like divorce, swearing, working on Sunday, acquisition of material wealth, not to mention the Ten Commandments, etc.; all sins.  We know this because the fundamentalists adhere to these rules so strictly that they serve as examples of piety for all of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>grumpypilgrim: &#8220;The result would simply be a stand-off.&#8221;</p>
<p>I wish that it could be that easy.  While you and I would likely be willing to &#8220;agree to disagree&#8221; with the fundamentalists, the fundamentalists don&#8217;t seem to be so accommodating.  Nonbelievers generally tolerate believers quite well; believers, on the other hand, associate all sorts of evil with nonbelievers (and even with other believers who don&#8217;t believe exactly as they do), and feel no qualms about seeking to harm or destroy them.</p>
<p>grumpypilgrim:  &#8220;Accordingly, I think we have to &#8230; address whether the society meets reasonable, objective measures of success &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>With reference to current societal rejection of objective pursuits such as science and logic, while I acknowledge the correctness of your statement, I do not have high hopes for implementation of what you propose.</p>
<p>grumpypilgrim:  &#8220;Sure, the fundies might insist on a metric such as &#8217;sinfulness,&#8217; but there is hardly any objective way to measure it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, it&#8217;s spelled out in the Bible.  Things like divorce, swearing, working on Sunday, acquisition of material wealth, not to mention the Ten Commandments, etc.; all sins.  We know this because the fundamentalists adhere to these rules so strictly that they serve as examples of piety for all of us.</p>
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		<title>By: grumpypilgrim</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-16923</link>
		<dc:creator>grumpypilgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-16923</guid>
		<description>Good point, Edgar, I hadn't considered the definitional problem you mention.  However, if the fundies are allowed to *define* a secular society as inherently defective, then there can't be much of a debate:  we could just as easily define a fundie theocracy as inherently defective and we would have plenty of data to support the argument.  The result would simply be a stand-off.  Accordingly, I think we have to reject such game playing and address whether the society meets reasonable, objective measures of success:  mortality rates, education rates, economic growth, crime, mental health, etc.  Sure, the fundies might insist on a metric such as "sinfulness," but there is hardly any objective way to measure it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, Edgar, I hadn&#8217;t considered the definitional problem you mention.  However, if the fundies are allowed to *define* a secular society as inherently defective, then there can&#8217;t be much of a debate:  we could just as easily define a fundie theocracy as inherently defective and we would have plenty of data to support the argument.  The result would simply be a stand-off.  Accordingly, I think we have to reject such game playing and address whether the society meets reasonable, objective measures of success:  mortality rates, education rates, economic growth, crime, mental health, etc.  Sure, the fundies might insist on a metric such as &#8220;sinfulness,&#8221; but there is hardly any objective way to measure it.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-16893</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/12/exposing-the-darwinist-conspiracy/#comment-16893</guid>
		<description>Edgar:  Your comment reminds me of John Paulos' observation that even fundies freely accept the idea of the leaderless market as keeping order.  http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/26/no-intelligent-design-required-for-the-economy/  They just cannot take that final step that biology can (in the words of Stuart Kaufman) give us "order for free."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edgar:  Your comment reminds me of John Paulos&#8217; observation that even fundies freely accept the idea of the leaderless market as keeping order.  <a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/26/no-intelligent-design-required-for-the-economy/" rel="nofollow">http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/26/no-intelligent-design-required-for-the-economy/</a>  They just cannot take that final step that biology can (in the words of Stuart Kaufman) give us &#8220;order for free.&#8221;</p>
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