Comments on: We are naive fools to wait for the free market to save us from impending shortages of critical natural resources http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/ Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:37:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-27523 Erich Vieth Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:41:54 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-27523 The EU has now banned incandescent light bulbs, stepping in to give the "market" some direction. Good for the EU! http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/10/11/eu-bans-incandescent-light-bulbs/ The EU has now banned incandescent light bulbs, stepping in to give the “market” some direction. Good for the EU! http://redgreenandblue.org/2008/10/11/eu-bans-incandescent-light-bulbs/

]]> By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-17096 Erich Vieth Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:46:44 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-17096 Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy (1828 - 1910) Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.

Leo Tolstoy (1828 - 1910)

]]> By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-17094 Erich Vieth Sun, 23 Mar 2008 19:27:55 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-17094 It appears that "mechanism design theory" is an attempt to address Lester Brown's pointed criticism of those who blithely rely on the "free market" to solve our problems. http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/28/the-invisible-hand-needs-a-hand/ It appears that “mechanism design theory” is an attempt to address Lester Brown’s pointed criticism of those who blithely rely on the “free market” to solve our problems. http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/28/the-invisible-hand-needs-a-hand/

]]> By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16870 Erich Vieth Sat, 15 Mar 2008 14:36:25 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16870 <blockquote>Federal fisheries managers on Friday took the initial step toward imposing what could be the strictest limits ever on West Coast salmon fishing amid a precipitous drop in fish returning to California's Sacramento Valley. The Pacific Fishery Management Council unanimously adopted three options for sport and commercial fishing off the Pacific Coast, including an unprecedented complete shutdown of fishing off California and Oregon.</blockquote> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23641437/

Federal fisheries managers on Friday took the initial step toward imposing what could be the strictest limits ever on West Coast salmon fishing amid a precipitous drop in fish returning to California’s Sacramento Valley.

The Pacific Fishery Management Council unanimously adopted three options for sport and commercial fishing off the Pacific Coast, including an unprecedented complete shutdown of fishing off California and Oregon.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23641437/

]]> By: Dan Klarmann http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16808 Dan Klarmann Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:31:29 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16808 I use CFL's more and more. The latest generation warms up even faster to a comfortable color. I just wanted to remind people of the hidden costs, as the original post was about. I use CFL’s more and more. The latest generation warms up even faster to a comfortable color. I just wanted to remind people of the hidden costs, as the original post was about.

]]> By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16801 Erich Vieth Thu, 13 Mar 2008 06:03:39 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16801 Wikipedia has an extensive article on CFL's (energy efficient light bulbs). I'm a believer in them --I have very few incandescent bulbs still being used in my house. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp Wikipedia has an extensive article on CFL’s (energy efficient light bulbs). I’m a believer in them –I have very few incandescent bulbs still being used in my house.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp

]]> By: PeterM http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16788 PeterM Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:40:43 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16788 A wholehearted 'Amen' to the article, but I'd be careful about following Brown's (and others') knee-jerk rush to 'energy-efficient' lightbulbs. Consider how much non-recyclable plastic is used in these items and how much oil is used to produce it, quite apart from the toxic chemicals Dan mentions. An ordinary lightbulb may use more electricity, but it's made up of metal and glass, and almost nothing else. Much easier to manufacture and recycle using low-tech methods. Not to mention the ghastly light from CFLs. If the UK ever legislates for compulsory CFLs, I'll be stockpiling incandescents. A wholehearted ‘Amen’ to the article, but I’d be careful about following Brown’s (and others’) knee-jerk rush to ‘energy-efficient’ lightbulbs. Consider how much non-recyclable plastic is used in these items and how much oil is used to produce it, quite apart from the toxic chemicals Dan mentions. An ordinary lightbulb may use more electricity, but it’s made up of metal and glass, and almost nothing else. Much easier to manufacture and recycle using low-tech methods. Not to mention the ghastly light from CFLs. If the UK ever legislates for compulsory CFLs, I’ll be stockpiling incandescents.

]]> By: Dan Klarmann http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16785 Dan Klarmann Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:17:18 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16785 Actually, the cost of gas at the pump in the U.S. does not include discovery. The USGS is tax funded and it maps out where natural resources such as oil are to be found. Tax money also supports low interest (and forgiven) loans for exploration and construction of extraction platforms, refineries, and the rails and roads to get the gas to the pump. To get an idea of what gasoline actually costs (ignoring environmental damage) look at <a href="http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/" target="_blank" title="CNN: Gas prices around the world" rel="nofollow">world prices at the pump</a> (up to $6.48/gal). As for efficient light bulbs: Let's not ignore the environmental cost of all that improperly disposed of mercury and other exotic compounds found in fluorescent bulbs. Most people don't know any better than to throw them in the trash. It is a finite world, and unless we can start mining other places our time here is very limited. Also keep in mind that we will never be able to exploit space unless we do it while we are flush with resources. That light at the end of a tunnel is probably a train! The time to move is now. Actually, the cost of gas at the pump in the U.S. does not include discovery. The USGS is tax funded and it maps out where natural resources such as oil are to be found. Tax money also supports low interest (and forgiven) loans for exploration and construction of extraction platforms, refineries, and the rails and roads to get the gas to the pump.
To get an idea of what gasoline actually costs (ignoring environmental damage) look at world prices at the pump (up to $6.48/gal).

As for efficient light bulbs: Let’s not ignore the environmental cost of all that improperly disposed of mercury and other exotic compounds found in fluorescent bulbs. Most people don’t know any better than to throw them in the trash.

It is a finite world, and unless we can start mining other places our time here is very limited. Also keep in mind that we will never be able to exploit space unless we do it while we are flush with resources. That light at the end of a tunnel is probably a train! The time to move is now.

]]> By: random guy http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16781 random guy Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:44:58 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/11/we-are-naive-fools-to-wait-for-the-free-market-to-save-us-from-impending-shortages-of-critical-natural-resources/#comment-16781 Im a libertarian on most social and financial issues, but on this one I agree with you whole-heartedly. If there is anything economics and sociology has taught us is that people are incapable of making rational decisions in cost-profit analysis. You talk about the overfishing of cod, I remember reading about the overfishing of a certain fish in the mediteranian. Every year these fish school together to mate and they create these large schools that are easily visable to anyone on a boat. So every year the fishing boats rush towards these schools and dredge up all that they are legally allowed to do, which is still very high, given Europe's demand for fish. Except now this particular species is being overfished, and as their rarity increases so does the price for each shipfull that comes in. So you now have a market system set up to reward people for depleting an already declining population of fish, and the techniques used for fishing this species grabs them at a critical period of their life-cycle ensuring diminishing returns with every year. Its depressing, but I really don't see a solution to these problems until we experience some form of economic or enviromental collapse due to our policies. On the supply side there is just too much money invested in maintaining the status quo, and on the demand side people are too unwilling to give up their creature comforts. Im a libertarian on most social and financial issues, but on this one I agree with you whole-heartedly. If there is anything economics and sociology has taught us is that people are incapable of making rational decisions in cost-profit analysis.

You talk about the overfishing of cod, I remember reading about the overfishing of a certain fish in the mediteranian. Every year these fish school together to mate and they create these large schools that are easily visable to anyone on a boat. So every year the fishing boats rush towards these schools and dredge up all that they are legally allowed to do, which is still very high, given Europe’s demand for fish. Except now this particular species is being overfished, and as their rarity increases so does the price for each shipfull that comes in. So you now have a market system set up to reward people for depleting an already declining population of fish, and the techniques used for fishing this species grabs them at a critical period of their life-cycle ensuring diminishing returns with every year.

Its depressing, but I really don’t see a solution to these problems until we experience some form of economic or enviromental collapse due to our policies. On the supply side there is just too much money invested in maintaining the status quo, and on the demand side people are too unwilling to give up their creature comforts.

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