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	<title>Comments on: A skeptic visits a chiropractor for acupuncture treatment</title>
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	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: My incredible neck surgery to fix my pinched nerves &#124; Dangerous Intersection</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-2/#comment-41621</link>
		<dc:creator>My incredible neck surgery to fix my pinched nerves &#124; Dangerous Intersection</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 06:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-41621</guid>
		<description>[...] several occasions, I referenced some of the treatment I have been receiving, including this post on acupuncture, this post on the incredible fact that there is a skeleton inside my body, and this confession that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] several occasions, I referenced some of the treatment I have been receiving, including this post on acupuncture, this post on the incredible fact that there is a skeleton inside my body, and this confession that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David Lu</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-2/#comment-40346</link>
		<dc:creator>David Lu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 08:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-40346</guid>
		<description>Few things I like to comment on is that 
1) I support Yin Tang's points that acupuncture should be done by well-trained acupuncturists.
2) There are a lot of methodological issues with current acupuncture studies. For example, when they NAME a control group called "placebo", they have not had any studies to prove they are really placebo. Let's pick Erich's example at "http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2009/05/even-fake-acupuncture-helps-back-pain.html", it mentioned that toothpick produced better result than conventional care. So who said toothpick does not or should not have effect? Also, by looking at the data, if you look at their study, they also show the so-called placebo group also produced pain reduction. So if it is meant to be placebo, why would it have effect? Just like in 2002, my colleague told me the result of a clinical trial on an anti-depressant drug. He said at the end of the trial, the result of the so-called placebo worked better than the drug, after the researcher told the participants that they received placebo, their depression were worsened and the drug group showed improvement. So who said their placebo pill should be ineffective? The data tell us that it worked. But when the researcher explained the placebo group received something ineffective, this made the participants depressed and hence their depression symptoms got worse. So in order to say "Something does not work" or "Something should not work", one has to have study to prove that is the case, otherwise the comparison is treatment vs. control of unknown effect.

The clinical trials do not reflect the practice of acupuncture. In clinical practice, acupuncturists do not just treat based on a fixed protocol like clinical trials do. They will find other ways to treat a condition if their treatment is not giving satisfactory result. This is different from clinical trials. So if you see clinical trials concluding that acupuncture is not effective to treat such and such condition, that doesn't mean acupuncture CAN NOT treat such condition. That means this acupuncture protocol is not effective to treat such condition.

3)Erich's treatment of the back. It is true that when needling on the upper back, one should not needle perpendicularly to prevent pneumothorax (puncturing of the lung) from occurring. Erich did not end up as pneumothorax. I can only say that he is lucky. But as a practitioner who really cares their patients, one should not do any treatment that will endanger or have high chance to endanger patient. I read a case in NSW, Australia. http://www.physioreg.health.nsw.gov.au/hprb/physio_web/pdf/newsletter33.pdf

4) I would like to comment on TJ's comment on Chi or Meridian are nonsense. They are not nonsense. It's just that modern science speaks different language from traditional Chinese medicine. And hence modern science has difficulty to understand traditional Chinese medicine's language. But that does not make traditional Chinese medicine nonsense. Think about MDs used to say that traditional Chinese medicine treatments were psychological effects only. But more and more clinical researches are demonstrating that traditional Chinese medicine treatments work and work well, too.

5) MDs prescribe placebo pill sometimes for patients. If it's all "placebo" effects, what makes them to practice acupuncture? If acupuncture is purely placebo, why would they bother to spend another hundred hours to study acupuncture just so they can practice acupuncture? (I believe prescribe placebo pills do not require them to study further.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Few things I like to comment on is that<br />
1) I support Yin Tang&#8217;s points that acupuncture should be done by well-trained acupuncturists.<br />
2) There are a lot of methodological issues with current acupuncture studies. For example, when they NAME a control group called &#8220;placebo&#8221;, they have not had any studies to prove they are really placebo. Let&#8217;s pick Erich&#8217;s example at &#8220;http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2009/05/even-fake-acupuncture-helps-back-pain.html&#8221;, it mentioned that toothpick produced better result than conventional care. So who said toothpick does not or should not have effect? Also, by looking at the data, if you look at their study, they also show the so-called placebo group also produced pain reduction. So if it is meant to be placebo, why would it have effect? Just like in 2002, my colleague told me the result of a clinical trial on an anti-depressant drug. He said at the end of the trial, the result of the so-called placebo worked better than the drug, after the researcher told the participants that they received placebo, their depression were worsened and the drug group showed improvement. So who said their placebo pill should be ineffective? The data tell us that it worked. But when the researcher explained the placebo group received something ineffective, this made the participants depressed and hence their depression symptoms got worse. So in order to say &#8220;Something does not work&#8221; or &#8220;Something should not work&#8221;, one has to have study to prove that is the case, otherwise the comparison is treatment vs. control of unknown effect.</p>
<p>The clinical trials do not reflect the practice of acupuncture. In clinical practice, acupuncturists do not just treat based on a fixed protocol like clinical trials do. They will find other ways to treat a condition if their treatment is not giving satisfactory result. This is different from clinical trials. So if you see clinical trials concluding that acupuncture is not effective to treat such and such condition, that doesn&#8217;t mean acupuncture CAN NOT treat such condition. That means this acupuncture protocol is not effective to treat such condition.</p>
<p>3)Erich&#8217;s treatment of the back. It is true that when needling on the upper back, one should not needle perpendicularly to prevent pneumothorax (puncturing of the lung) from occurring. Erich did not end up as pneumothorax. I can only say that he is lucky. But as a practitioner who really cares their patients, one should not do any treatment that will endanger or have high chance to endanger patient. I read a case in NSW, Australia. <a href="http://www.physioreg.health.nsw.gov.au/hprb/physio_web/pdf/newsletter33.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.physioreg.health.nsw.gov.au/hprb/physio_web/pdf/newsletter33.pdf</a></p>
<p>4) I would like to comment on TJ&#8217;s comment on Chi or Meridian are nonsense. They are not nonsense. It&#8217;s just that modern science speaks different language from traditional Chinese medicine. And hence modern science has difficulty to understand traditional Chinese medicine&#8217;s language. But that does not make traditional Chinese medicine nonsense. Think about MDs used to say that traditional Chinese medicine treatments were psychological effects only. But more and more clinical researches are demonstrating that traditional Chinese medicine treatments work and work well, too.</p>
<p>5) MDs prescribe placebo pill sometimes for patients. If it&#8217;s all &#8220;placebo&#8221; effects, what makes them to practice acupuncture? If acupuncture is purely placebo, why would they bother to spend another hundred hours to study acupuncture just so they can practice acupuncture? (I believe prescribe placebo pills do not require them to study further.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Coyle</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-1/#comment-39489</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Coyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 15:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-39489</guid>
		<description>There is a lot of woo out there regarding acupuncture.  It has been demonstrated, in certain cases, to effect pain sense and pain thresholds.  It has also never been demonstrated to have any effect (beyond placebo) on non-pain related ailments.

There is a lot of mis-information out there. Much of it, as with homeopathy, written by people with the prospect of financial gain in mind.  Of course they will confirm the efficacy of the treatment they sell.

One challenge with most 'alternative therapies' (especially traditional ones) is that acceptance of the part that works often results in the bundling of all the parts that don't work.  Many of the studies that have investigated acupuncture were beset by poor (or nonexistent) controls.  As better, more structured studies are performed, and more science is done to investigate why some acupuncture procedures work at all - we'll gain a better handle on pain in general, and on therapies to treat pain.

Therapies that work will get used and become conventional medicine.  Those that don't will remain 'alternative'.

A good starting point for medical research is pubmed (for papers - be sure to confirm the rigor of the study - does it involve adequate controls, double blinds, etc).

I found &lt;a href="http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ans/psychology/health_psychology/Acupuncture.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;Vanderbilt &lt;/a&gt;to provide a good (if ugly!) background on acupuncture, as well as some of the current theories on why it works at all (when it does).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a lot of woo out there regarding acupuncture.  It has been demonstrated, in certain cases, to effect pain sense and pain thresholds.  It has also never been demonstrated to have any effect (beyond placebo) on non-pain related ailments.</p>
<p>There is a lot of mis-information out there. Much of it, as with homeopathy, written by people with the prospect of financial gain in mind.  Of course they will confirm the efficacy of the treatment they sell.</p>
<p>One challenge with most &#8216;alternative therapies&#8217; (especially traditional ones) is that acceptance of the part that works often results in the bundling of all the parts that don&#8217;t work.  Many of the studies that have investigated acupuncture were beset by poor (or nonexistent) controls.  As better, more structured studies are performed, and more science is done to investigate why some acupuncture procedures work at all - we&#8217;ll gain a better handle on pain in general, and on therapies to treat pain.</p>
<p>Therapies that work will get used and become conventional medicine.  Those that don&#8217;t will remain &#8216;alternative&#8217;.</p>
<p>A good starting point for medical research is pubmed (for papers - be sure to confirm the rigor of the study - does it involve adequate controls, double blinds, etc).</p>
<p>I found <a href="http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ans/psychology/health_psychology/Acupuncture.htm" rel="nofollow">Vanderbilt </a>to provide a good (if ugly!) background on acupuncture, as well as some of the current theories on why it works at all (when it does).</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-1/#comment-39469</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 04:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-39469</guid>
		<description>Now we learn that even fake acupuncture is helpful.  http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2009/05/even-fake-acupuncture-helps-back-pain.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now we learn that even fake acupuncture is helpful.  <a href="http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2009/05/even-fake-acupuncture-helps-back-pain.html" rel="nofollow">http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/features_julieshealthclub/2009/05/even-fake-acupuncture-helps-back-pain.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-1/#comment-32086</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-32086</guid>
		<description>Here's some good first-hand advice from a rugby player who dealt with the same type of pain that I've been dealing with.   http://www.brooksvannorman.com/how-i-dealt-with-a-massive-pain-the-neck/

BTW, things are much better--my pain is now typically a 1, 2 or 3 (out of 10), instead of 7 or 8.   The last doctor I saw was a spine surgeon who advocated "vigorous physical activity," and absolutely not a sedentary life style.   I'm taking one Naproxen per day, occasionally using neck traction (at home--a $25 device) and trying to stay active.   I can't believe how much better things are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s some good first-hand advice from a rugby player who dealt with the same type of pain that I&#8217;ve been dealing with.   <a href="http://www.brooksvannorman.com/how-i-dealt-with-a-massive-pain-the-neck/" rel="nofollow">http://www.brooksvannorman.com/how-i-dealt-with-a-massive-pain-the-neck/</a></p>
<p>BTW, things are much better&#8211;my pain is now typically a 1, 2 or 3 (out of 10), instead of 7 or 8.   The last doctor I saw was a spine surgeon who advocated &#8220;vigorous physical activity,&#8221; and absolutely not a sedentary life style.   I&#8217;m taking one Naproxen per day, occasionally using neck traction (at home&#8211;a $25 device) and trying to stay active.   I can&#8217;t believe how much better things are.</p>
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		<title>By: Yin Tang</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-1/#comment-25936</link>
		<dc:creator>Yin Tang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 03:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-25936</guid>
		<description>Erich,

Glad to see your doing better. I would still highly reccomend that you give acupuncture a second try. I reccomend that you visit a fully trained acupuncturists in your area. In some states acupuncturists are allowed to also perform acupuncture injection thearpy which is also very effective for pain relief and a many more medical conditions. I know that you will see a major difference in the treatment from a real acupuncturist as opposed to someone with a couple of hundred hours of training or no training at all.

Acupuncture and oriental medicine (TCM) is a complete medical system capable of treating almost anything. Scientific studies are greater in numbers now. Just check out pubmed.gov which has many scientific articles on acunpuncture and its effectiveness. 

For the average person TCM can seem strange with how it explains disease. Remember that a lot of terminology in TCM may seem strange but it has many of the same meanings as western medicine but just with a different name. You will find a growing number of MD's in support of acupuncture and oriental medicine due to that TCM has the same methology but with a different means to treat a condition.

One thing I would like to point out is that acupuncture has been around for over 3000 years. I do not think it would have lasted that long if there was not something to it. It provides real alternatives to condiitons that are not responding to conventional treatment.  I also believe that if a person included TCM in there care earlier to complement conventional treatment then many conditions would respond better.

If you ever get a chance please read the book "Between Heaven and Earth" it is a wonderful book that answers a lot of questions with regards to Acupuncture and TCM

Good luck my friend and I hope that you find peace in your road to recovery.

In Health,
YinTang</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erich,</p>
<p>Glad to see your doing better. I would still highly reccomend that you give acupuncture a second try. I reccomend that you visit a fully trained acupuncturists in your area. In some states acupuncturists are allowed to also perform acupuncture injection thearpy which is also very effective for pain relief and a many more medical conditions. I know that you will see a major difference in the treatment from a real acupuncturist as opposed to someone with a couple of hundred hours of training or no training at all.</p>
<p>Acupuncture and oriental medicine (TCM) is a complete medical system capable of treating almost anything. Scientific studies are greater in numbers now. Just check out pubmed.gov which has many scientific articles on acunpuncture and its effectiveness. </p>
<p>For the average person TCM can seem strange with how it explains disease. Remember that a lot of terminology in TCM may seem strange but it has many of the same meanings as western medicine but just with a different name. You will find a growing number of MD&#8217;s in support of acupuncture and oriental medicine due to that TCM has the same methology but with a different means to treat a condition.</p>
<p>One thing I would like to point out is that acupuncture has been around for over 3000 years. I do not think it would have lasted that long if there was not something to it. It provides real alternatives to condiitons that are not responding to conventional treatment.  I also believe that if a person included TCM in there care earlier to complement conventional treatment then many conditions would respond better.</p>
<p>If you ever get a chance please read the book &#8220;Between Heaven and Earth&#8221; it is a wonderful book that answers a lot of questions with regards to Acupuncture and TCM</p>
<p>Good luck my friend and I hope that you find peace in your road to recovery.</p>
<p>In Health,<br />
YinTang</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-1/#comment-25851</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 03:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-25851</guid>
		<description>Yin Tang:  I believe that the acupuncture offered some relief for a few hours each visit.  Then the pain came back to where it was before.  I have not suffered any injury as a result of the acupuncture.  Nor did it bring me any lasting relief.   

BTW, I am largely OK now.  I saw several additional doctors, all of them MDs.  The most recent doctor indicated that my condition (which you can see at the links at the bottom of this comment) is "gray hair of the spine."  My spine looks a lot like the spines of most people my age (52).  

I will comment further because this sort of thing affects so many people, Basically, I'm taking Naproxen each day and my condition has stabilized.  I even played a bit of racquetball.  It is amazing to me that I can function normally because the pain was so incredibly severe in prior months. 
 
My surgeons both discouraged surgery, and both suggested that I put off surgery until/unless things flame up again or if I start experiencing weakness or numbness.  They both indicated that many of these pinched nerve conditions resolve on their own.  Mine did.  If I'm lucky the pain will stay away. 
 
The surgeon I saw most recently said that "vigorous physical activity" is the best thing, NOT living a sedentary life.   Therefore, I'm working hard to stay in shape and I'm actually pushing my neck through some stretches.
 
I bought a home traction device (for $25) and it seems to have helped.  I've used it only a few times in the past two months.    

I feel very good and very lucky that the pain mostly gone (though some days, it is . . . well . . . &lt;em&gt;painful&lt;/em&gt;).  Having that pain made me much more tuned to the problems of all of those people out there with chronic pain.  It can interfere with your life greatly.  It can get you depressed and it can even wreck your life. 

BTW, Here's the traction device I bought.  http://www.sitincomfort.com/ovtrsetcetrt.html  I've only used it a couple of times, but I do think it helped.  It was only $25 and it does the same thing that the physical therapists were doing for $200 per visit (much of that NOT covered by my insurer, somehow ... though that is a separate story).  It looks rather silly and I felt silly using it (my kids chuckle).  But it actually did help.

http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/06/hey-theres-a-skeleton-inside-my-body/

http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/04/08/getting-jabbed-with-a-hypodermic-needle-sometimes-makes-my-body-faint/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yin Tang:  I believe that the acupuncture offered some relief for a few hours each visit.  Then the pain came back to where it was before.  I have not suffered any injury as a result of the acupuncture.  Nor did it bring me any lasting relief.   </p>
<p>BTW, I am largely OK now.  I saw several additional doctors, all of them MDs.  The most recent doctor indicated that my condition (which you can see at the links at the bottom of this comment) is &#8220;gray hair of the spine.&#8221;  My spine looks a lot like the spines of most people my age (52).  </p>
<p>I will comment further because this sort of thing affects so many people, Basically, I&#8217;m taking Naproxen each day and my condition has stabilized.  I even played a bit of racquetball.  It is amazing to me that I can function normally because the pain was so incredibly severe in prior months. </p>
<p>My surgeons both discouraged surgery, and both suggested that I put off surgery until/unless things flame up again or if I start experiencing weakness or numbness.  They both indicated that many of these pinched nerve conditions resolve on their own.  Mine did.  If I&#8217;m lucky the pain will stay away. </p>
<p>The surgeon I saw most recently said that &#8220;vigorous physical activity&#8221; is the best thing, NOT living a sedentary life.   Therefore, I&#8217;m working hard to stay in shape and I&#8217;m actually pushing my neck through some stretches.</p>
<p>I bought a home traction device (for $25) and it seems to have helped.  I&#8217;ve used it only a few times in the past two months.    </p>
<p>I feel very good and very lucky that the pain mostly gone (though some days, it is . . . well . . . <em>painful</em>).  Having that pain made me much more tuned to the problems of all of those people out there with chronic pain.  It can interfere with your life greatly.  It can get you depressed and it can even wreck your life. </p>
<p>BTW, Here&#8217;s the traction device I bought.  <a href="http://www.sitincomfort.com/ovtrsetcetrt.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.sitincomfort.com/ovtrsetcetrt.html</a>  I&#8217;ve only used it a couple of times, but I do think it helped.  It was only $25 and it does the same thing that the physical therapists were doing for $200 per visit (much of that NOT covered by my insurer, somehow &#8230; though that is a separate story).  It looks rather silly and I felt silly using it (my kids chuckle).  But it actually did help.</p>
<p><a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/06/hey-theres-a-skeleton-inside-my-body/" rel="nofollow">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/06/hey-theres-a-skeleton-inside-my-body/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/04/08/getting-jabbed-with-a-hypodermic-needle-sometimes-makes-my-body-faint/" rel="nofollow">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/04/08/getting-jabbed-with-a-hypodermic-needle-sometimes-makes-my-body-faint/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Yin Tang</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-1/#comment-25844</link>
		<dc:creator>Yin Tang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 02:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-25844</guid>
		<description>Very Interesting

But there is one problem here, from what I see on the photo the acupuncture peformed was not only performed incorrectly but it also carried the risk of endangering the patients life via pneumothorax. The points shown in the photo are backshu points as well as other points. The needling technique was done perpendicular which is a very big no no with points in this area. The correct needling method would of been transverse oblique. 

This is the problem with allowing other professions not just chiropractor to perform acupuncture with little or no training. Now that is not to take anything away from chiroprator as I do like them and have friends who are chiropractors. But acupuncture should be performed by Licensed acupuncturists who have gone to the complete 4 years of trainnig not only with acupuncture but also oriental medicine. If I knew I could add spinal manipulatioin to my scope with only a couple of hundred hours of training I would have to decline to do so as that is not enough training to perform it correctly as you should go to 4 years of chiropactic school if you want to perfrom spinal manipulation.

My dad once siad that if you need a plumber you would not call an electrician. So the same should be if you want acupuncture you should not see another doctor that is not fully trained.

If I were an expert witness to the above photo in a pnuemothrorax case I would have to say that from what I see it is clearly malpractice on the part of the person treating

Thats my two cents</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very Interesting</p>
<p>But there is one problem here, from what I see on the photo the acupuncture peformed was not only performed incorrectly but it also carried the risk of endangering the patients life via pneumothorax. The points shown in the photo are backshu points as well as other points. The needling technique was done perpendicular which is a very big no no with points in this area. The correct needling method would of been transverse oblique. </p>
<p>This is the problem with allowing other professions not just chiropractor to perform acupuncture with little or no training. Now that is not to take anything away from chiroprator as I do like them and have friends who are chiropractors. But acupuncture should be performed by Licensed acupuncturists who have gone to the complete 4 years of trainnig not only with acupuncture but also oriental medicine. If I knew I could add spinal manipulatioin to my scope with only a couple of hundred hours of training I would have to decline to do so as that is not enough training to perform it correctly as you should go to 4 years of chiropactic school if you want to perfrom spinal manipulation.</p>
<p>My dad once siad that if you need a plumber you would not call an electrician. So the same should be if you want acupuncture you should not see another doctor that is not fully trained.</p>
<p>If I were an expert witness to the above photo in a pnuemothrorax case I would have to say that from what I see it is clearly malpractice on the part of the person treating</p>
<p>Thats my two cents</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-1/#comment-25725</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-25725</guid>
		<description>I'm a little late to the party here, but I found the blog while looking for information about chiropractic. I hope you (and other posters with pain problems) are doing well and have found some relief. If not, please allow me offer unsolicited medical advice...

Consider looking into whether you might have trigger points that are causing your pain and mis-alignment. Trigger points are basically little contraction knots in the muscle fibers that shorten the muscle, interfere with range of motion, strength and cause pain (including referring pain to areas away from the point itself.). Bad ergonomics can perpetuate them.

I've had all sorts of muscular pain and trigger point therapy (not general massage) is the only thing that seems to have reliable results for me. There's a great book by Clair Davies called The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook, and by using that as a reference I've been able to manage without much professional intervention. 

Great blog, BTW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a little late to the party here, but I found the blog while looking for information about chiropractic. I hope you (and other posters with pain problems) are doing well and have found some relief. If not, please allow me offer unsolicited medical advice&#8230;</p>
<p>Consider looking into whether you might have trigger points that are causing your pain and mis-alignment. Trigger points are basically little contraction knots in the muscle fibers that shorten the muscle, interfere with range of motion, strength and cause pain (including referring pain to areas away from the point itself.). Bad ergonomics can perpetuate them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had all sorts of muscular pain and trigger point therapy (not general massage) is the only thing that seems to have reliable results for me. There&#8217;s a great book by Clair Davies called The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook, and by using that as a reference I&#8217;ve been able to manage without much professional intervention. </p>
<p>Great blog, BTW</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/01/17/a-skeptic-visits-a-chiropractor-for-acupuncture-treatment/comment-page-1/#comment-16642</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 04:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=2055#comment-16642</guid>
		<description>The saga continues.   I've switched to an M.D., and I'm scheduled for an MRI next week.  It's interesting to compare the different styles of the different health care providers.  But perhaps it's possible to know TOO much about one's own body:  http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/06/hey-theres-a-skeleton-inside-my-body/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The saga continues.   I&#8217;ve switched to an M.D., and I&#8217;m scheduled for an MRI next week.  It&#8217;s interesting to compare the different styles of the different health care providers.  But perhaps it&#8217;s possible to know TOO much about one&#8217;s own body:  <a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/06/hey-theres-a-skeleton-inside-my-body/" rel="nofollow">http://dangerousintersection.org/2008/03/06/hey-theres-a-skeleton-inside-my-body/</a></p>
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