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	<title>Comments on: The banality of burning coal</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-17058</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 13:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-17058</guid>
		<description>If you want the public to receive unedited scientific information, then the research needs to be funded by a non-political process. Good luck finding funding without an agenda attached.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want the public to receive unedited scientific information, then the research needs to be funded by a non-political process. Good luck finding funding without an agenda attached.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-17042</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 01:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-17042</guid>
		<description>Amy Goodman reports on the White House efforts (both Bush and Clinton) to censor Environmental scientist James Hansen.  The following excerpt is from her interview of Hansen:

DR. JAMES HANSEN: Well, my concern is general with both Republican and Democratic administrations. They both feel that they can control what scientists say to the public. So their offices of public affairs in the science agencies are headed, in general, by political appointees, and they review the press releases before they go out. So, it doesn’t really make sense in a democracy. The public should be honestly informed. And then, of course, the publications are allowed to make the decisions, and they don’t have to follow exactly what the science says. There are other considerations that they have. But they shouldn’t influence what is presented, the scientific evidence. And I object to that, regardless of which administration is in power. 

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/21/censoring_science_inside_the_political_attack</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amy Goodman reports on the White House efforts (both Bush and Clinton) to censor Environmental scientist James Hansen.  The following excerpt is from her interview of Hansen:</p>
<p>DR. JAMES HANSEN: Well, my concern is general with both Republican and Democratic administrations. They both feel that they can control what scientists say to the public. So their offices of public affairs in the science agencies are headed, in general, by political appointees, and they review the press releases before they go out. So, it doesn’t really make sense in a democracy. The public should be honestly informed. And then, of course, the publications are allowed to make the decisions, and they don’t have to follow exactly what the science says. There are other considerations that they have. But they shouldn’t influence what is presented, the scientific evidence. And I object to that, regardless of which administration is in power. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/21/censoring_science_inside_the_political_attack" rel="nofollow">http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/21/censoring_science_inside_the_political_attack</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-15451</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 06:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-15451</guid>
		<description>The report said China will expand measures to exploit its abundant coal reserves — a step that will help to reduce reliance on imported fuel but could sharply raise greenhouse gas outputs.

""China will step up its efforts in prospecting coal resources,"" the report said. It said Beijing would reorganize its coal industry by closing smaller, less efficient mines while creating conglomerates with bigger production capacity.

http://bajaenergys.blogspot.com/2007/12/asia-china-warns-of-increased-coal.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The report said China will expand measures to exploit its abundant coal reserves — a step that will help to reduce reliance on imported fuel but could sharply raise greenhouse gas outputs.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8221;China will step up its efforts in prospecting coal resources,&#8221;" the report said. It said Beijing would reorganize its coal industry by closing smaller, less efficient mines while creating conglomerates with bigger production capacity.</p>
<p><a href="http://bajaenergys.blogspot.com/2007/12/asia-china-warns-of-increased-coal.html" rel="nofollow">http://bajaenergys.blogspot.com/2007/12/asia-china-warns-of-increased-coal.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-15136</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-15136</guid>
		<description>For more on what the coal industry has in store for us, check out the Sierra Club's information at http://www.sierraclub.org/coal/:

Coal-fired power plants are one of our nation's largest—and dirtiest—sources of energy. Although these plants already produce about half of our electricity, there are plans on the drawing board to build over 150 new plants in the next few years. With new laws to fight global warming expected on the horizon, the coal industry is in a rush to build as many new plants as possible before pollution safeguards are in place.

To learn about the many new coal plants springing up, go to http://www.sierraclub.org/environmentallaw/coal/plantlist.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For more on what the coal industry has in store for us, check out the Sierra Club&#8217;s information at <a href="http://www.sierraclub.org/coal/" rel="nofollow">http://www.sierraclub.org/coal/</a>:</p>
<p>Coal-fired power plants are one of our nation&#8217;s largest—and dirtiest—sources of energy. Although these plants already produce about half of our electricity, there are plans on the drawing board to build over 150 new plants in the next few years. With new laws to fight global warming expected on the horizon, the coal industry is in a rush to build as many new plants as possible before pollution safeguards are in place.</p>
<p>To learn about the many new coal plants springing up, go to <a href="http://www.sierraclub.org/environmentallaw/coal/plantlist.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.sierraclub.org/environmentallaw/coal/plantlist.asp</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-15135</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-15135</guid>
		<description>xxxx: The universe won't be threatened by what we do to little ole Earth, which is essentially a crowded lifeboat. In my view, however, if there were no universe, there would be no sentient beings and thus no sadness or joy. There would be no ethereal residue of meaning. No universe, in my view, means nothing at all.

But that doesn't mean that we humans lack bona fide feelings and purposes. That there someday might not be anything doesn't mean that there are no legitimate moral claims, here and now.

Here is my moral claim. We shouldn't distract our limited human attentional capacity with hyper-consumerist political and social systems that cause us to keep desperate people off of our radar (Exhibit A: http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1855). I've pondered these issues at length before. See http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=699

My moral claim frustrates many people (including me), because they want lots of time off when they don't HAVE to consider all those other needy people. Whoever said that you get that kind of moral vacation? Hack preachers to the contrary (see http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=511), what God has allegedly ever uttered those kinds of words? What God has ever handed out "Get out of hell free" cards?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>xxxx: The universe won&#8217;t be threatened by what we do to little ole Earth, which is essentially a crowded lifeboat. In my view, however, if there were no universe, there would be no sentient beings and thus no sadness or joy. There would be no ethereal residue of meaning. No universe, in my view, means nothing at all.</p>
<p>But that doesn&#8217;t mean that we humans lack bona fide feelings and purposes. That there someday might not be anything doesn&#8217;t mean that there are no legitimate moral claims, here and now.</p>
<p>Here is my moral claim. We shouldn&#8217;t distract our limited human attentional capacity with hyper-consumerist political and social systems that cause us to keep desperate people off of our radar (Exhibit A: <a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1855" rel="nofollow">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1855</a>). I&#8217;ve pondered these issues at length before. See <a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=699" rel="nofollow">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=699</a></p>
<p>My moral claim frustrates many people (including me), because they want lots of time off when they don&#8217;t HAVE to consider all those other needy people. Whoever said that you get that kind of moral vacation? Hack preachers to the contrary (see <a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=511" rel="nofollow">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=511</a>), what God has allegedly ever uttered those kinds of words? What God has ever handed out &#8220;Get out of hell free&#8221; cards?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-15133</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-15133</guid>
		<description>Our purpose, as species, is: "Survive". Burning coal too quickly endangers this goal. I say "too quickly" because coal is just an energy storage device stocked up in the carboniferous era. It is unwise (immoral) to release that energy at orders-of-magnitude greater rate than that at which it can be stored.

One of the reasons is global warming, a theory that is rapidly gaining acceptance even in the fossil fuel industry as supporting evidence mounts and philosophical objections are countered. The exact effects of this warming are still uncertain. However, they must be prepared for, and hopefully can be reduced. Pricey carbon sequestration techniques can help with that issue.

Another reason is long-term sustainability. If we consume all available resources faster than they can be replenished, eventually they will be gone. We are now capable of seeing the deep, dark pit at the end of the fossil fuel rainbow.
If we cannot get fusion to work ("any year now" since 1970) or find a way to harvest zero-point energy, we will have some harsh changes to make unless we begin to reduce our footprint in the very near future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our purpose, as species, is: &#8220;Survive&#8221;. Burning coal too quickly endangers this goal. I say &#8220;too quickly&#8221; because coal is just an energy storage device stocked up in the carboniferous era. It is unwise (immoral) to release that energy at orders-of-magnitude greater rate than that at which it can be stored.</p>
<p>One of the reasons is global warming, a theory that is rapidly gaining acceptance even in the fossil fuel industry as supporting evidence mounts and philosophical objections are countered. The exact effects of this warming are still uncertain. However, they must be prepared for, and hopefully can be reduced. Pricey carbon sequestration techniques can help with that issue.</p>
<p>Another reason is long-term sustainability. If we consume all available resources faster than they can be replenished, eventually they will be gone. We are now capable of seeing the deep, dark pit at the end of the fossil fuel rainbow.<br />
If we cannot get fusion to work (&#8221;any year now&#8221; since 1970) or find a way to harvest zero-point energy, we will have some harsh changes to make unless we begin to reduce our footprint in the very near future.</p>
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		<title>By: xxxx</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-15132</link>
		<dc:creator>xxxx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-15132</guid>
		<description>Well, surely you'd agree that if the universe got wiped out, at least nobody would again have to worry about being flooded out of their house and no child would ever again have malaria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, surely you&#8217;d agree that if the universe got wiped out, at least nobody would again have to worry about being flooded out of their house and no child would ever again have malaria.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-15130</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-15130</guid>
		<description>I assume that there are many other planets out there with sentient beings. I assume that many civilizations on those planets have wiped themselves out with some combination of irresponsible use of technology and irresponsible procreative habits. I don't lie awake at night weeping for them.

Did it matter to them that they suffered greatly while they were polluting and overpopulating? Damn straight. Did it matter "to the universe." I don't understand that question. In my world view, the universe doesn't "know" anything.

Does it "matter at all"? I don't understand that question, either. Things can "matter" only to sentient beings. That things don't matter in some "bigger" "overall" way doesn't diminish the fact that families become terrified as flood waters rise to wipe out their homes and lives.

There is a belief out there held by many people (not by me) that if something isn't important in a vague overall supernatural sense (that I don't understand), or if it is not eternal, it doesn't "matter."

If something is part of my life, or part of the lives of those about whom I care, then it might matter to me. I understand, though, that events that matter to me (even though they really matter, from my perspective) might not matter to others.

Innocent children needlessly die of malaria every day, especially in Africa. Does that matter, even to those of us who share that same planet? Based on their non-action, the answer, for most people in the U.S. is no. Does it matter to Bill Gates? Absolutely.  As a result of his actions in trying to wipe out malaria deaths, I greatly admire Bill Gates.

Will it matter to a civilization that exists 1000 years from now that children are needlessly dying of malaria? Only to the extent that it "matters" to most of us that hundreds of people got buried alive at Pompeii in AD 79. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii We don't have a Pompeii Day here in the U.S. No day off. No special food. No banners with volcanos. It's just not on our radar.  Not enough of a connection to our actual lives.

Empathy exists only to the extent that something is on particular peoples' radars. We can work hard to extend the reach of our "radar" by reading up about people from other lands. We can travel to those other lands, spend time with those people and then care greatly about them. Without actually getting to know other people, though, we can care about them only in an abstract sort of way.  We are not physcially capable of caring greatly for everyone else on the planet, much less civilations from other time periods or planets.   We lack the cognitive capacity love everyone and care about everyone to the extent that we love and care about those we know.  &lt;a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=276"&gt;http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=276&lt;/a&gt;

To what extent do we have a moral duty to extend our moral radar--our realm of concern--to include people we currently don't know well enough to care about?  &lt;em&gt;That, in my mind, is perhaps the most interesting moral question of all.&lt;/em&gt;  Certainly we can choose to remain ignorant about other peoples, and this has the effect of wiping out any guilt we might have to care about them when their lives are threatened.   The articles cited in this post bring this idea home strongly for me:  we can choose to be ignorant about the dangers of using coal, thereby completing the disconnect between our own current behavior and the dangers that behavior poses to other humans (and other animals too).

Maybe none of us will be alive when the floodwaters cause great anguish to billions of Earth's coastal inhabitants. Nonetheless, it will certainly matter to all of those people.  To the extent we work at it, &lt;em&gt;we can work to make it matter&lt;/em&gt; &lt;em&gt;to ourselves&lt;/em&gt; to care more (rather than less) about the world we are passing on to the children and grandchildren we currently care about (even if they haven't yet had those children and grandchildren).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume that there are many other planets out there with sentient beings. I assume that many civilizations on those planets have wiped themselves out with some combination of irresponsible use of technology and irresponsible procreative habits. I don&#8217;t lie awake at night weeping for them.</p>
<p>Did it matter to them that they suffered greatly while they were polluting and overpopulating? Damn straight. Did it matter &#8220;to the universe.&#8221; I don&#8217;t understand that question. In my world view, the universe doesn&#8217;t &#8220;know&#8221; anything.</p>
<p>Does it &#8220;matter at all&#8221;? I don&#8217;t understand that question, either. Things can &#8220;matter&#8221; only to sentient beings. That things don&#8217;t matter in some &#8220;bigger&#8221; &#8220;overall&#8221; way doesn&#8217;t diminish the fact that families become terrified as flood waters rise to wipe out their homes and lives.</p>
<p>There is a belief out there held by many people (not by me) that if something isn&#8217;t important in a vague overall supernatural sense (that I don&#8217;t understand), or if it is not eternal, it doesn&#8217;t &#8220;matter.&#8221;</p>
<p>If something is part of my life, or part of the lives of those about whom I care, then it might matter to me. I understand, though, that events that matter to me (even though they really matter, from my perspective) might not matter to others.</p>
<p>Innocent children needlessly die of malaria every day, especially in Africa. Does that matter, even to those of us who share that same planet? Based on their non-action, the answer, for most people in the U.S. is no. Does it matter to Bill Gates? Absolutely.  As a result of his actions in trying to wipe out malaria deaths, I greatly admire Bill Gates.</p>
<p>Will it matter to a civilization that exists 1000 years from now that children are needlessly dying of malaria? Only to the extent that it &#8220;matters&#8221; to most of us that hundreds of people got buried alive at Pompeii in AD 79. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii</a> We don&#8217;t have a Pompeii Day here in the U.S. No day off. No special food. No banners with volcanos. It&#8217;s just not on our radar.  Not enough of a connection to our actual lives.</p>
<p>Empathy exists only to the extent that something is on particular peoples&#8217; radars. We can work hard to extend the reach of our &#8220;radar&#8221; by reading up about people from other lands. We can travel to those other lands, spend time with those people and then care greatly about them. Without actually getting to know other people, though, we can care about them only in an abstract sort of way.  We are not physcially capable of caring greatly for everyone else on the planet, much less civilations from other time periods or planets.   We lack the cognitive capacity love everyone and care about everyone to the extent that we love and care about those we know.  <a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=276">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=276</a></p>
<p>To what extent do we have a moral duty to extend our moral radar&#8211;our realm of concern&#8211;to include people we currently don&#8217;t know well enough to care about?  <em>That, in my mind, is perhaps the most interesting moral question of all.</em>  Certainly we can choose to remain ignorant about other peoples, and this has the effect of wiping out any guilt we might have to care about them when their lives are threatened.   The articles cited in this post bring this idea home strongly for me:  we can choose to be ignorant about the dangers of using coal, thereby completing the disconnect between our own current behavior and the dangers that behavior poses to other humans (and other animals too).</p>
<p>Maybe none of us will be alive when the floodwaters cause great anguish to billions of Earth&#8217;s coastal inhabitants. Nonetheless, it will certainly matter to all of those people.  To the extent we work at it, <em>we can work to make it matter</em> <em>to ourselves</em> to care more (rather than less) about the world we are passing on to the children and grandchildren we currently care about (even if they haven&#8217;t yet had those children and grandchildren).</p>
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		<title>By: xxxx</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-15129</link>
		<dc:creator>xxxx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-15129</guid>
		<description>let's assume we burn coal and do other things that destroy creation on this earth.  after all that happens, exactly who will care, or know the difference, or be affected?

if i told you that a trillion light years ago there was a planet whose 'people' did stupid things like we are doing and thereby destroyed their creation, how upset would you - or anybody - be?  how would that make any difference to anything in the universe?

indeed, what if somebody built such a big bomb that it destroyed all of creation everywhere.  there would be nothing left.  infinite vacuum.  after all the dust settled (what dust?) there wouldn't be anybody or anything left to be PO'd about the whole thing, or to even care.  

I am not advocating blowing anything up, or even driving a gas guzzler.  I'm just pondering the earlier posts' question about whether the universe has a purpose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>let&#8217;s assume we burn coal and do other things that destroy creation on this earth.  after all that happens, exactly who will care, or know the difference, or be affected?</p>
<p>if i told you that a trillion light years ago there was a planet whose &#8216;people&#8217; did stupid things like we are doing and thereby destroyed their creation, how upset would you - or anybody - be?  how would that make any difference to anything in the universe?</p>
<p>indeed, what if somebody built such a big bomb that it destroyed all of creation everywhere.  there would be nothing left.  infinite vacuum.  after all the dust settled (what dust?) there wouldn&#8217;t be anybody or anything left to be PO&#8217;d about the whole thing, or to even care.  </p>
<p>I am not advocating blowing anything up, or even driving a gas guzzler.  I&#8217;m just pondering the earlier posts&#8217; question about whether the universe has a purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/11/30/the-banality-of-burning-coal/#comment-15128</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1852#comment-15128</guid>
		<description>I assume that you are alluding to this post:  http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1836

Human animals can have consciously articulated purposes, at least with regard to some of their behavior.  We are also rigged with emotions and cravings that make at least some of our behavioral purposeful.   

That the universe as a whole cannot be said to have a "purpose" doesn't mean that individual organisms can't have the individual capacity to have purposes. 

To the extent that might lessen our dependence on coal, it would be because individuals and groups of individuals have purposely acted to accomplish this.  As the article suggests, though, our continued dependence on coal might be relatively thoughtless and habitual, certainly lacking in animus regarding the dangers the continued widespread burning of coal poses to numerous ecosystems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume that you are alluding to this post:  <a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1836" rel="nofollow">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1836</a></p>
<p>Human animals can have consciously articulated purposes, at least with regard to some of their behavior.  We are also rigged with emotions and cravings that make at least some of our behavioral purposeful.   </p>
<p>That the universe as a whole cannot be said to have a &#8220;purpose&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean that individual organisms can&#8217;t have the individual capacity to have purposes. </p>
<p>To the extent that might lessen our dependence on coal, it would be because individuals and groups of individuals have purposely acted to accomplish this.  As the article suggests, though, our continued dependence on coal might be relatively thoughtless and habitual, certainly lacking in animus regarding the dangers the continued widespread burning of coal poses to numerous ecosystems.</p>
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