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	<title>Comments on: We need to hunt down and kill Adam Smith’s Invisible Hand.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:04:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: spiker</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-17823</link>
		<dc:creator>spiker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-17823</guid>
		<description>Niklaus Pfirsig observes
"now one of the farmers finds out that there was a bumper crop of tomatoes in the next state, while locally tomatoes didn’t grow well. So he borrows some money for gas and produce, drives over to the next state and buys a truckload of tomatoes to sell in the farmers market. Since one farmer can sell more tomatoes at a cheaper price, the market ceases to be a free market (for tomatoes only) because the other farmers can’t compete on the price."
  This is silly and does not even begin to grasp what Smith is talking about
Of course, this whole thing starts with an article who's author does not even have the decency to quote smith directly, but decides wikipedia is sufficeient.  No doubt it is easier to read a wiki article than wade through The Wealth of Nations and develop an understanding of what Adam Smith was talking about.
At any rate, to get back to Niklaus Pfirsig's observation, he is right to the extent that his concept of a free market includes the ability  of the customer to decide: "If the customer doesn’t like the price/quality combination from on seller, she goes to the next one and the next or haggles the price until satisfied.
The rest is flatly arbitrary. In the real market place vendors often do not  " all have about the same inventory". and it is precisely because, to return to Mr. Pfirsig's example, a farmer might discover
"that there was a bumper crop of tomatoes in the next state..... So he borrows some money for gas and produce, drives over to the next state and buys a truckload of tomatoes to sell in the farmers market."
 Mr. Pfirsig arbitraily assumes that said farmer can then "sell more tomatoes at a cheaper price".  He forgets that the farmer borrowed money and is now responsible for repaying it or that the farmers in the next state who may in turn discover that the tomatoe crop in the neighboring state "didn't grow well" and raise their prices in response to the increased demand. 
But let us assume Mr. Pfirsig's assumption is correct and that our farmer who we will refer to as farmer Pfirsig-can "sell more tomatoes at a cheaper price", how does this mean the market ceases to be free? After all there are any number of things the other farmers can do to compete: They can cut their profit on each item or there may be other goods that can be cheaply bundled with the tomatoes. 
Farmer pfirsig may indeed benefit from  knowledge about a bumper crop of tomatoes, but this doesn't prevent other farmers from discovering the same bumper crop or a bumper crop of lettuce, an excess supply of salad bowls or any number of things that might be cheaply bundled with their tomatoes. 
   Lets assume Farmer Pfirsig comes back with his truckload of tomatoes and he is able to sell them for 75 cents a piece rather than the going rate of 1 dollar, but that while Farmer Pfirsig was in the next state, Cousin Pfirisg, who is selling local tomatoes learn's of farmer Pfirsig's plan and decides to take advantage of a local bumper crop of lettuce. And since we are being arbitray we can also assume that Cousin Pfirsig, ever the abstemious man, has managed to save a few thousand dollars in the bank without Farmer Pfirsig's knowledge ( After all he knows that farmer Pfirsig, while a great cousin is always
borrowing money and rarely paying it back).  
Cousin Pfirsig is now in a position to try to make a deal with the farmers selling the local bumper crop of lettuce- and still being arbitray we will assume that each head of lettuce also sells for 1 dollar.
Now it just so happens that Cousin Pfirsig while in church the previous morning ran into his friend Hector who picks lettuce for Farmer Brown and Hector lets on that Farmer Brown will make a profit of 30 cents per head of lettuce.  Now armed with this information, Cousin Pfirsig offers to buy Farmer brown's entire crop, 1000 head of lettuce for 85 cents a piece.  
After thinking about it for a bit Farmer Brown decides that making a $150.00 profit now is better than trying to make 300 before the lettuce goes bad and since sales have been slow, it is quite likley that he may not be able to sell them all.
 Now by the time Cousin Pfirsig gets back to the farmers market, Farmer Pfirsig has returned and is selling his tomatoes like hotcakes. Cousin Pfirsig, who was likewise making 30 cents profit on each tomatoe he is selling decides that if the consumer buys two tomatoes he will charge only charge 75 cents per tomatoe and include  a head of lettuce for 90 cents comming out to $2.40.
Now Farmer Pfirsig is selling his tomatoes @ 75 cents a piece and lettuce is selling for $1.00 a head in the truck next to him.  Seeing Cousin Pfirsig doing brisk business, Farmer Pfirsig may decide to team up with the guy selling lettuce and decide that not only will they offer the same deal but will let the consumer select each item, where cousin Pfirsig is preselecting what the consumer gets.
Still another farmer-Farmer Green-faced with this situation decides that he can cut his profit per tomatoe allowing him to sell them for  72 cents a piece if the consumer buys 2 and he likewise makes a deal with the truck next to him selling cucumbers.  Of course the farmer in the truck next door happens to be Granfather Pfirsig who is also giving away free salad bowls that he made teaching art class at the local public school; with the purchase of 3 cucumbers. Now our consumer has 3 deals to choose from and it is not even a question of which is the best deal. It is a question of what the consumer and the seller decide is the best deal. Indeed Farmer Brown may have been unwilling to take Cousin Pfirsig's offer or he may have counter offered, but it is precisley the ability of each party in either negotiation
to decide what is the best deal for him that makes the market free and it will remain free until the negotiating parties are prevented from accepting a given deal because people who have no stake in the matter decide that a given deal is unfair or dangerous and should not happen. (The Alar scare in the 80s is one example of ill informed 3rd parties that felt tehy had a justification to interfere in this process).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Niklaus Pfirsig observes<br />
&#8220;now one of the farmers finds out that there was a bumper crop of tomatoes in the next state, while locally tomatoes didn’t grow well. So he borrows some money for gas and produce, drives over to the next state and buys a truckload of tomatoes to sell in the farmers market. Since one farmer can sell more tomatoes at a cheaper price, the market ceases to be a free market (for tomatoes only) because the other farmers can’t compete on the price.&#8221;<br />
  This is silly and does not even begin to grasp what Smith is talking about<br />
Of course, this whole thing starts with an article who&#8217;s author does not even have the decency to quote smith directly, but decides wikipedia is sufficeient.  No doubt it is easier to read a wiki article than wade through The Wealth of Nations and develop an understanding of what Adam Smith was talking about.<br />
At any rate, to get back to Niklaus Pfirsig&#8217;s observation, he is right to the extent that his concept of a free market includes the ability  of the customer to decide: &#8220;If the customer doesn’t like the price/quality combination from on seller, she goes to the next one and the next or haggles the price until satisfied.<br />
The rest is flatly arbitrary. In the real market place vendors often do not  &#8221; all have about the same inventory&#8221;. and it is precisely because, to return to Mr. Pfirsig&#8217;s example, a farmer might discover<br />
&#8220;that there was a bumper crop of tomatoes in the next state&#8230;.. So he borrows some money for gas and produce, drives over to the next state and buys a truckload of tomatoes to sell in the farmers market.&#8221;<br />
 Mr. Pfirsig arbitraily assumes that said farmer can then &#8220;sell more tomatoes at a cheaper price&#8221;.  He forgets that the farmer borrowed money and is now responsible for repaying it or that the farmers in the next state who may in turn discover that the tomatoe crop in the neighboring state &#8220;didn&#8217;t grow well&#8221; and raise their prices in response to the increased demand.<br />
But let us assume Mr. Pfirsig&#8217;s assumption is correct and that our farmer who we will refer to as farmer Pfirsig-can &#8220;sell more tomatoes at a cheaper price&#8221;, how does this mean the market ceases to be free? After all there are any number of things the other farmers can do to compete: They can cut their profit on each item or there may be other goods that can be cheaply bundled with the tomatoes.<br />
Farmer pfirsig may indeed benefit from  knowledge about a bumper crop of tomatoes, but this doesn&#8217;t prevent other farmers from discovering the same bumper crop or a bumper crop of lettuce, an excess supply of salad bowls or any number of things that might be cheaply bundled with their tomatoes.<br />
   Lets assume Farmer Pfirsig comes back with his truckload of tomatoes and he is able to sell them for 75 cents a piece rather than the going rate of 1 dollar, but that while Farmer Pfirsig was in the next state, Cousin Pfirisg, who is selling local tomatoes learn&#8217;s of farmer Pfirsig&#8217;s plan and decides to take advantage of a local bumper crop of lettuce. And since we are being arbitray we can also assume that Cousin Pfirsig, ever the abstemious man, has managed to save a few thousand dollars in the bank without Farmer Pfirsig&#8217;s knowledge ( After all he knows that farmer Pfirsig, while a great cousin is always<br />
borrowing money and rarely paying it back).<br />
Cousin Pfirsig is now in a position to try to make a deal with the farmers selling the local bumper crop of lettuce- and still being arbitray we will assume that each head of lettuce also sells for 1 dollar.<br />
Now it just so happens that Cousin Pfirsig while in church the previous morning ran into his friend Hector who picks lettuce for Farmer Brown and Hector lets on that Farmer Brown will make a profit of 30 cents per head of lettuce.  Now armed with this information, Cousin Pfirsig offers to buy Farmer brown&#8217;s entire crop, 1000 head of lettuce for 85 cents a piece.<br />
After thinking about it for a bit Farmer Brown decides that making a $150.00 profit now is better than trying to make 300 before the lettuce goes bad and since sales have been slow, it is quite likley that he may not be able to sell them all.<br />
 Now by the time Cousin Pfirsig gets back to the farmers market, Farmer Pfirsig has returned and is selling his tomatoes like hotcakes. Cousin Pfirsig, who was likewise making 30 cents profit on each tomatoe he is selling decides that if the consumer buys two tomatoes he will charge only charge 75 cents per tomatoe and include  a head of lettuce for 90 cents comming out to $2.40.<br />
Now Farmer Pfirsig is selling his tomatoes @ 75 cents a piece and lettuce is selling for $1.00 a head in the truck next to him.  Seeing Cousin Pfirsig doing brisk business, Farmer Pfirsig may decide to team up with the guy selling lettuce and decide that not only will they offer the same deal but will let the consumer select each item, where cousin Pfirsig is preselecting what the consumer gets.<br />
Still another farmer-Farmer Green-faced with this situation decides that he can cut his profit per tomatoe allowing him to sell them for  72 cents a piece if the consumer buys 2 and he likewise makes a deal with the truck next to him selling cucumbers.  Of course the farmer in the truck next door happens to be Granfather Pfirsig who is also giving away free salad bowls that he made teaching art class at the local public school; with the purchase of 3 cucumbers. Now our consumer has 3 deals to choose from and it is not even a question of which is the best deal. It is a question of what the consumer and the seller decide is the best deal. Indeed Farmer Brown may have been unwilling to take Cousin Pfirsig&#8217;s offer or he may have counter offered, but it is precisley the ability of each party in either negotiation<br />
to decide what is the best deal for him that makes the market free and it will remain free until the negotiating parties are prevented from accepting a given deal because people who have no stake in the matter decide that a given deal is unfair or dangerous and should not happen. (The Alar scare in the 80s is one example of ill informed 3rd parties that felt tehy had a justification to interfere in this process).</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-15100</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-15100</guid>
		<description>Here's a Salon.com piece setting forth Ron Paul's views that the invisible hand (the free market) is a cure all for our energy and ecological woes:
&lt;blockquote&gt;On energy, I would say that the reliance on the government to devise a policy is a fallacy. I would advocate that the free market take care of that. The government shouldn't be directing research and development because they are bound and determined to always misdirect money to political cronies. The government ends up subsidizing things like the corn industry to develop ethanol and it turns out that it's not economically feasible. So, my answer to energy is to let the market work. Let supply and demand make the decision. Let prices make the decision. That is completely different than the bureaucratic and cronyism approach.

On environment, governments don't have a good reputation for doing a good job protecting the environment. If you look at the extreme of socialism or communism, they were very poor environmentalists. Private property owners have a much better record of taking care of the environment. If you look at the common ownership of the lands in the West, they're much more poorly treated than those that are privately owned. In a free-market system, nobody is permitted to pollute their neighbor's private property -- water, air, or land. It is very strict.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/11/29/grist_qa/index.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a Salon.com piece setting forth Ron Paul&#8217;s views that the invisible hand (the free market) is a cure all for our energy and ecological woes:</p>
<blockquote><p>On energy, I would say that the reliance on the government to devise a policy is a fallacy. I would advocate that the free market take care of that. The government shouldn&#8217;t be directing research and development because they are bound and determined to always misdirect money to political cronies. The government ends up subsidizing things like the corn industry to develop ethanol and it turns out that it&#8217;s not economically feasible. So, my answer to energy is to let the market work. Let supply and demand make the decision. Let prices make the decision. That is completely different than the bureaucratic and cronyism approach.</p>
<p>On environment, governments don&#8217;t have a good reputation for doing a good job protecting the environment. If you look at the extreme of socialism or communism, they were very poor environmentalists. Private property owners have a much better record of taking care of the environment. If you look at the common ownership of the lands in the West, they&#8217;re much more poorly treated than those that are privately owned. In a free-market system, nobody is permitted to pollute their neighbor&#8217;s private property &#8212; water, air, or land. It is very strict.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/11/29/grist_qa/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/11/29/grist_qa/index.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-14528</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-14528</guid>
		<description>See also this previous post:  Don't hold your breath that good things will just happen.  http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1500</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See also this previous post:  Don&#8217;t hold your breath that good things will just happen.  <a href="http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1500" rel="nofollow">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1500</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-14522</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 05:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-14522</guid>
		<description>Trust the Invisible Hand is a smokescreen for allowing crooks run our country.   It's truly unbelievable that so many people want to just assume that the "market" is a benevolent force for all.  As though the fact that coffee shops and snow-cone stands pop up on beaches will guarantee that common citizens are protected from sophisticated financial schemes run by huge financial institutions that have drained our governement and cultural institutions of many of their higher values only to replace them with worship for the bottom line. 

Blind faith in the Invisible Hand is, in reality, a willingness to turn over all power to people with lots of money who desire yet more money.   Common folks have very control over the Invisible Hand.  Much less now than ever before.  They need to wake up to this fact before the middle class is entirely eviscerated.  The terrifying numbers are everywhere.  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/2/162947/5397</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trust the Invisible Hand is a smokescreen for allowing crooks run our country.   It&#8217;s truly unbelievable that so many people want to just assume that the &#8220;market&#8221; is a benevolent force for all.  As though the fact that coffee shops and snow-cone stands pop up on beaches will guarantee that common citizens are protected from sophisticated financial schemes run by huge financial institutions that have drained our governement and cultural institutions of many of their higher values only to replace them with worship for the bottom line. </p>
<p>Blind faith in the Invisible Hand is, in reality, a willingness to turn over all power to people with lots of money who desire yet more money.   Common folks have very control over the Invisible Hand.  Much less now than ever before.  They need to wake up to this fact before the middle class is entirely eviscerated.  The terrifying numbers are everywhere.  <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/2/162947/5397" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/2/162947/5397</a></p>
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		<title>By: grumpypilgrim</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-14519</link>
		<dc:creator>grumpypilgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-14519</guid>
		<description>"Further, China owns 25% of our federal debt. What will we do when they start buying up America’s corporation?"

This is a much more serious threat than most Americans realize.  Not only are U.S. dollars flooding into China, giving the Chinese ever-increasing buying power in America, but the value of the U.S. dollar relative to the Chinese yuan has been dropping fast (see http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=USD&#38;to=CNY&#38;amt=1&#38;t=5y).  A falling dollar means that when the Chinese do come to buy U.S. companies, those companies will be selling at sale prices.

This reflects one big difference between China and America:  China takes a very long view -- on the order of decades to centuries -- while America takes a very short view -- on the order of one or two fiscal quarters.  In the long run, America might just find its beloved capitalism losing to Chinese communism.  Given that America has existed for two centuries and China has existed for more than twenty, I hope Americans appreciate this danger sooner rather than later.

Given America's tendency to not see such dangers coming, I urge any American with children to enroll their kids in Chinese (Mandarin) language classes, instead of any of the European foreign languages.  Twenty years from now, Chinese will be a much more important international language than it is today -- probably not as important as English is today, but almost certainly more important than any alternative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Further, China owns 25% of our federal debt. What will we do when they start buying up America’s corporation?&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a much more serious threat than most Americans realize.  Not only are U.S. dollars flooding into China, giving the Chinese ever-increasing buying power in America, but the value of the U.S. dollar relative to the Chinese yuan has been dropping fast (see <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=USD&amp;to=CNY&amp;amt=1&amp;t=5y" rel="nofollow">http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=USD&amp;to=CNY&amp;amt=1&amp;t=5y</a>).  A falling dollar means that when the Chinese do come to buy U.S. companies, those companies will be selling at sale prices.</p>
<p>This reflects one big difference between China and America:  China takes a very long view &#8212; on the order of decades to centuries &#8212; while America takes a very short view &#8212; on the order of one or two fiscal quarters.  In the long run, America might just find its beloved capitalism losing to Chinese communism.  Given that America has existed for two centuries and China has existed for more than twenty, I hope Americans appreciate this danger sooner rather than later.</p>
<p>Given America&#8217;s tendency to not see such dangers coming, I urge any American with children to enroll their kids in Chinese (Mandarin) language classes, instead of any of the European foreign languages.  Twenty years from now, Chinese will be a much more important international language than it is today &#8212; probably not as important as English is today, but almost certainly more important than any alternative.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-14516</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 06:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-14516</guid>
		<description>John C. Bogel, the "Father of Index Funds," (Vanguard Funds) weighs in on this issue. He says "There are some things must be entrusted to government and some things that must be entrusted to private enterprise." With regard to many modern corporations, "There's no accountability." The big problem is with the financial sector of our economy: "The financial side of the economy is dominating the corporate side of the economy." Banks, money managers and insurance companies are subtracting great value from our economy." Bogel asks: "What is enough?"

Here are &lt;a href="http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09282007/watch.html" target="_blank"&gt;some additional notes I took based on Bogel's interview:&lt;/a&gt;

Americans believe that we are the worlds great values creator, but we excel at bread and circuses. Social security is in a great crisis. We are bankrupting ourselves to fight the Iraq war, which is a war over oil. One imperative need: to create a political system that is not driven by money.

Further, China owns 25% of our federal debt. What will we do when they start buying up America's corporation?

"I salute capitalism, but we've taken it too far . . . we've got the wrong bottom line . . . This is unsustainable." We need a federal standard for fiduciary duty that mutual funds are operated for the long term benefit of those who own the securities. We are engaged in the "folly of short term speculation." We have moved from "manager's capitalism" [CEO's] instead of "owner's capitalism."

Bogel argues that we need a society that treasures deeper lasting values such as poetry and art more than chasing dollars in the form of financial papers.  Bogel concludes his interview by quote a sign that hung in Einstein's office:  "There are some things that count that can't be counted.  And there are some things that can be counted that don't count."

For more on Bogel, &lt;a href="http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09282007/profile.html" target="_blank"&gt;see here.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John C. Bogel, the &#8220;Father of Index Funds,&#8221; (Vanguard Funds) weighs in on this issue. He says &#8220;There are some things must be entrusted to government and some things that must be entrusted to private enterprise.&#8221; With regard to many modern corporations, &#8220;There&#8217;s no accountability.&#8221; The big problem is with the financial sector of our economy: &#8220;The financial side of the economy is dominating the corporate side of the economy.&#8221; Banks, money managers and insurance companies are subtracting great value from our economy.&#8221; Bogel asks: &#8220;What is enough?&#8221;</p>
<p>Here are <a href="http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09282007/watch.html" target="_blank">some additional notes I took based on Bogel&#8217;s interview:</a></p>
<p>Americans believe that we are the worlds great values creator, but we excel at bread and circuses. Social security is in a great crisis. We are bankrupting ourselves to fight the Iraq war, which is a war over oil. One imperative need: to create a political system that is not driven by money.</p>
<p>Further, China owns 25% of our federal debt. What will we do when they start buying up America&#8217;s corporation?</p>
<p>&#8220;I salute capitalism, but we&#8217;ve taken it too far . . . we&#8217;ve got the wrong bottom line . . . This is unsustainable.&#8221; We need a federal standard for fiduciary duty that mutual funds are operated for the long term benefit of those who own the securities. We are engaged in the &#8220;folly of short term speculation.&#8221; We have moved from &#8220;manager&#8217;s capitalism&#8221; [CEO's] instead of &#8220;owner&#8217;s capitalism.&#8221;</p>
<p>Bogel argues that we need a society that treasures deeper lasting values such as poetry and art more than chasing dollars in the form of financial papers.  Bogel concludes his interview by quote a sign that hung in Einstein&#8217;s office:  &#8220;There are some things that count that can&#8217;t be counted.  And there are some things that can be counted that don&#8217;t count.&#8221;</p>
<p>For more on Bogel, <a href="http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09282007/profile.html" target="_blank">see here.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-14514</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-14514</guid>
		<description>In case it's not apparent, I do believe in a huge role to be played by the free market in setting prices among most goods and services. I also believe, however, that we need government to play the role of referee--to make sure that competition is fair and that resources critical for the country's survival don't end up totally in private hands where they can be squandered. There needs to be a free market and government oversight to counterbalance each other. I am not arguing for socialism. What I'm fighting against is the argument that an unregulated free market is per se benevolent. In some ways it is and in other important ways it is clear that the lack of regulation has resulted in devastation of natural resources critical to our future survival.

Another case in point. A relative of mine is convinced that the "free market" will simply solve all of our country's future challenges. Just close down the government and we'll somehow have no energy worries at all. The market will supposedly take care of everything. I find this position untenable in light of the abuses by big oil. It's happening all over, where huge corporations have taken over Congress to the extent that they are no longer regulated. Big banks, Pharma, the Insurance industry. These industries have taken control of Congress, yet they clearly don't have the interests of Americans at heart. They care only about their stockholders.

As though the "Free Market" is going to cause these all-too-powerful industries to become altruistic.  Here's what I would ask the Invisible Hand Pollyannas:  On what do you base your fantasies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case it&#8217;s not apparent, I do believe in a huge role to be played by the free market in setting prices among most goods and services. I also believe, however, that we need government to play the role of referee&#8211;to make sure that competition is fair and that resources critical for the country&#8217;s survival don&#8217;t end up totally in private hands where they can be squandered. There needs to be a free market and government oversight to counterbalance each other. I am not arguing for socialism. What I&#8217;m fighting against is the argument that an unregulated free market is per se benevolent. In some ways it is and in other important ways it is clear that the lack of regulation has resulted in devastation of natural resources critical to our future survival.</p>
<p>Another case in point. A relative of mine is convinced that the &#8220;free market&#8221; will simply solve all of our country&#8217;s future challenges. Just close down the government and we&#8217;ll somehow have no energy worries at all. The market will supposedly take care of everything. I find this position untenable in light of the abuses by big oil. It&#8217;s happening all over, where huge corporations have taken over Congress to the extent that they are no longer regulated. Big banks, Pharma, the Insurance industry. These industries have taken control of Congress, yet they clearly don&#8217;t have the interests of Americans at heart. They care only about their stockholders.</p>
<p>As though the &#8220;Free Market&#8221; is going to cause these all-too-powerful industries to become altruistic.  Here&#8217;s what I would ask the Invisible Hand Pollyannas:  On what do you base your fantasies?</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-14511</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-14511</guid>
		<description>Bubba Gump: My point is that relatively unrestrained purchasing decisions are geared to satisfying short term urges and wants that are well on their way to over-exploiting and ruining the natural resources we desperately need to keep our country inhabitable. Our consumers and industries, freely engaging in billions of decisions to purchase and sell goods and services, are ruining the planet in a blindered effort to satisfy short term cravings.

For instance, it's not government regulation that has essentially emptied the Atlantic Ocean of edible fish. It's the LACK of regulation that allowed huge areas to be overfished.  Uncurtailed private decisions to buy and sell fish emptied the North Atlantic.  It's the classic problem of &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons" target="_blank"&gt;Tragedy of the Commons&lt;/a&gt;.

Yes, the free market brings efficiencies, but it is amoral and present-oriented. Trusting in the "free market" is proving to be a recipe for disaster. I wish people would quit being so naive as to argue that blind faith in the Invisible Hand will provide us with all of our needs.

If you think that regulation is the problem, just consider the mega-slums that exist in many countries. See &lt;a href="http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=60811" target="_blank"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; or &lt;a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0914-03.htm" target="_blank"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href="https://www.melbourne.anglican.com.au/main.php?pg=news&#038;news_id=2153&#038;s=2138" target="_blank"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. These mega slums in cities like Nairobi, Lagos, Mumbai and Dhaka should be utopias, according to your theory because there is virtually no government regulation. The power of government doesn't penetrate to the millions of people in these areas. There are &lt;em&gt;totally free markets&lt;/em&gt;. So what is life really in these places that don't suffer the choking effect of all of those cursed government regulations?
&lt;blockquote&gt;In Manila less than 10% of homes are connected to sewerage systems. In India only 17 of 3700 cities and large towns have any kind of primary sewage disposal. It is estimated that most Indians and Africans defecate in the open. Men often defecate into plastic bags which they then throw away. It is easier for men to urinate, but for women more conscious of propriety especially in Muslim culture, the situation is appalling. “To urinate or defecate, women and girls – in countries which shelter women from the public gaze – have to wait until dark.”

Then there is the problem of water borne disease in the world’s new mega-slums. Digestive-tract diseases arising from poor sanitation and the pollution of drinking water – including diarrhea, enteritis, colitis, typhoid and cholera – are the leading cause of infant and child death in the world. UNICEF estimates that up to 80% of deaths from preventable diseases (apart from HIV/AIDS) arise from poor sanitation.

Mexico City residents (population 22 million) inhale shit: fecal dust blowing off Lake Texcoco during the hot, dry season causes typhoid and hepatitis. In Rangoon, where the military regime has brutally moved hundreds of thousands of inner-city residents…they cook and defecate in the mud directly in front of tiny plastic sheets under which they sleep, ravaged by cholera, dysentry, dengue and malaria. In Baghdad’s giant slum of Sadr City, American bombing has resulted in raw sewage seeping everywhere.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Now THAT's how truly free markets turn out. Perhaps you'll argue that it's always government to blame whenever things turn shitty. I would argue the opposite. Too bad there is not a strong enough government to step in and help clean up these catastrophes.

If you'd think about it, you'd realize that many things that keep life bearable are not handed over to the free market, lest they be exploited and destroyed.  Therefore, we let government step in and regulate water, electical, sewage and other utility services, in addition to police, fire-fighting, roads and bridges, courts of law and libraries.  

If it's totally free market you want, you'll end up with isolated gated communities located amidst mega slums, huge areas of dog eat dog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bubba Gump: My point is that relatively unrestrained purchasing decisions are geared to satisfying short term urges and wants that are well on their way to over-exploiting and ruining the natural resources we desperately need to keep our country inhabitable. Our consumers and industries, freely engaging in billions of decisions to purchase and sell goods and services, are ruining the planet in a blindered effort to satisfy short term cravings.</p>
<p>For instance, it&#8217;s not government regulation that has essentially emptied the Atlantic Ocean of edible fish. It&#8217;s the LACK of regulation that allowed huge areas to be overfished.  Uncurtailed private decisions to buy and sell fish emptied the North Atlantic.  It&#8217;s the classic problem of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons" target="_blank">Tragedy of the Commons</a>.</p>
<p>Yes, the free market brings efficiencies, but it is amoral and present-oriented. Trusting in the &#8220;free market&#8221; is proving to be a recipe for disaster. I wish people would quit being so naive as to argue that blind faith in the Invisible Hand will provide us with all of our needs.</p>
<p>If you think that regulation is the problem, just consider the mega-slums that exist in many countries. See <a href="http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=60811" target="_blank">here</a> or <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0914-03.htm" target="_blank">here</a> and <a href="https://www.melbourne.anglican.com.au/main.php?pg=news&#038;news_id=2153&#038;s=2138" target="_blank">here</a>. These mega slums in cities like Nairobi, Lagos, Mumbai and Dhaka should be utopias, according to your theory because there is virtually no government regulation. The power of government doesn&#8217;t penetrate to the millions of people in these areas. There are <em>totally free markets</em>. So what is life really in these places that don&#8217;t suffer the choking effect of all of those cursed government regulations?</p>
<blockquote><p>In Manila less than 10% of homes are connected to sewerage systems. In India only 17 of 3700 cities and large towns have any kind of primary sewage disposal. It is estimated that most Indians and Africans defecate in the open. Men often defecate into plastic bags which they then throw away. It is easier for men to urinate, but for women more conscious of propriety especially in Muslim culture, the situation is appalling. “To urinate or defecate, women and girls – in countries which shelter women from the public gaze – have to wait until dark.”</p>
<p>Then there is the problem of water borne disease in the world’s new mega-slums. Digestive-tract diseases arising from poor sanitation and the pollution of drinking water – including diarrhea, enteritis, colitis, typhoid and cholera – are the leading cause of infant and child death in the world. UNICEF estimates that up to 80% of deaths from preventable diseases (apart from HIV/AIDS) arise from poor sanitation.</p>
<p>Mexico City residents (population 22 million) inhale shit: fecal dust blowing off Lake Texcoco during the hot, dry season causes typhoid and hepatitis. In Rangoon, where the military regime has brutally moved hundreds of thousands of inner-city residents…they cook and defecate in the mud directly in front of tiny plastic sheets under which they sleep, ravaged by cholera, dysentry, dengue and malaria. In Baghdad’s giant slum of Sadr City, American bombing has resulted in raw sewage seeping everywhere.</p></blockquote>
<p>Now THAT&#8217;s how truly free markets turn out. Perhaps you&#8217;ll argue that it&#8217;s always government to blame whenever things turn shitty. I would argue the opposite. Too bad there is not a strong enough government to step in and help clean up these catastrophes.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;d think about it, you&#8217;d realize that many things that keep life bearable are not handed over to the free market, lest they be exploited and destroyed.  Therefore, we let government step in and regulate water, electical, sewage and other utility services, in addition to police, fire-fighting, roads and bridges, courts of law and libraries.  </p>
<p>If it&#8217;s totally free market you want, you&#8217;ll end up with isolated gated communities located amidst mega slums, huge areas of dog eat dog.</p>
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		<title>By: bubba gump</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-14510</link>
		<dc:creator>bubba gump</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-14510</guid>
		<description>Free market should have no government involvement, save for common law stuff, like enforcing contracts and prosecuting theft.

Most of the points made in this article are really also caused by the government. 

1) "Is it really beneficial to divert so many of this country’s resources to the Iraq occupation?  We could really use that money at home."

Nothing free market about this issue, this is a government issue.

2) "Under the Hand’s reign, we have seen our forests, soil and air contaminated. "

The number one polluter in the U.S. is the Federal Government. (http://www.adti.net/environment/congressRecord_pryan102800.html)

Also, the 'public' ownership of forests has resulted in the Federal Government selling off our 'public forests' logging rights to logging companies. These companies don't own the land, and have no financial incentive to care for the land because they don't own it. In a free market, there would be no public land. Private land owners take better care of their land. Private, managed forests have a reputation for being less fire prone, and for being better cared for, because the owner wants to maintain their investment.

Air and water contamination can be handled in the free market under common law. If you can show that someones pollution is damaging you or your property (I.e. they're leaching poison into the creek that you use to drink water from on your property), then you can sue them for damages and they have to make reperations. The government is to blame for this problem, as they have changed the rules on liability of polluters. 

--

Government cannot create wealth, it can only create restrictions on people and reduce wealth. If you want to form a happy commune with rules on how you do business, that's fine, but don't try to force it on everyone.

Government is force. It is nothing without force. It can only govern at the point of a gun. The free market can't make everything perfect, but it will always beat being told what to do at the point of a gun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Free market should have no government involvement, save for common law stuff, like enforcing contracts and prosecuting theft.</p>
<p>Most of the points made in this article are really also caused by the government. </p>
<p>1) &#8220;Is it really beneficial to divert so many of this country’s resources to the Iraq occupation?  We could really use that money at home.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nothing free market about this issue, this is a government issue.</p>
<p>2) &#8220;Under the Hand’s reign, we have seen our forests, soil and air contaminated. &#8221;</p>
<p>The number one polluter in the U.S. is the Federal Government. (http://www.adti.net/environment/congressRecord_pryan102800.html)</p>
<p>Also, the &#8216;public&#8217; ownership of forests has resulted in the Federal Government selling off our &#8216;public forests&#8217; logging rights to logging companies. These companies don&#8217;t own the land, and have no financial incentive to care for the land because they don&#8217;t own it. In a free market, there would be no public land. Private land owners take better care of their land. Private, managed forests have a reputation for being less fire prone, and for being better cared for, because the owner wants to maintain their investment.</p>
<p>Air and water contamination can be handled in the free market under common law. If you can show that someones pollution is damaging you or your property (I.e. they&#8217;re leaching poison into the creek that you use to drink water from on your property), then you can sue them for damages and they have to make reperations. The government is to blame for this problem, as they have changed the rules on liability of polluters. </p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>Government cannot create wealth, it can only create restrictions on people and reduce wealth. If you want to form a happy commune with rules on how you do business, that&#8217;s fine, but don&#8217;t try to force it on everyone.</p>
<p>Government is force. It is nothing without force. It can only govern at the point of a gun. The free market can&#8217;t make everything perfect, but it will always beat being told what to do at the point of a gun.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/09/27/we-need-to-hunt-down-and-kill-adam-smith%e2%80%99s-invisible-hand/#comment-14508</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1625#comment-14508</guid>
		<description>"now one of the farmers finds out that there was a bumper crop of tomatoes in the next state, while locally tomatoes didn’t grow well. So he borrows some money for gas and produce, drives over to the next state and buys a truckload of tomatoes to sell in the farmers market. Since one farmer can sell more tomatoes at a cheaper price, the market ceases to be a free market (for tomatoes only) because the other farmers can’t compete on the price."

ROFL
It's not a free market because one person undersells the rest?

Seriously, you folks need to go back to high school and relearn economics, or at least use the captcha I am seeing and open a book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;now one of the farmers finds out that there was a bumper crop of tomatoes in the next state, while locally tomatoes didn’t grow well. So he borrows some money for gas and produce, drives over to the next state and buys a truckload of tomatoes to sell in the farmers market. Since one farmer can sell more tomatoes at a cheaper price, the market ceases to be a free market (for tomatoes only) because the other farmers can’t compete on the price.&#8221;</p>
<p>ROFL<br />
It&#8217;s not a free market because one person undersells the rest?</p>
<p>Seriously, you folks need to go back to high school and relearn economics, or at least use the captcha I am seeing and open a book.</p>
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