Larry Bates offers his prescription for End Times woes: buy and eat silver
August 12th, 2007 by Erich ViethOnce in a while, I tune into KJSL, a St. Louis Christian talk radio station. I do this as part of a conscious effort to make myself listen to people with views that are dramatically different from my own. Perhaps I will understand those views better if I take the time to listen more.
While I was driving last week, the station featured a show called “News and Views,” hosted by a man named “Dr. Larry Bates.” The host repeatedly painted the future of the US as bleak, thanks to irresponsible financial policies by the federal government. Because I have some sympathy with that general conclusion, I continued to listen. It turned out that Bates was predicting the imminent financial collapse of the United States. Although I doubted that conclusion, I continued to listen.
Bates then indicated that he is also a big proponent of religious “End Times.” In short, he believes that Jesus will soon be returning to Earth in order to sort things out. I have no sympathy for this religious view. In fact, I find End Times beliefs to be irresponsible and destructive for the numerous reasons. For example, I do not hold the Bible to be inerrant. Based on my study of the Bible, although it offers some good stories and some reasonable moral instruction, it is also rife with bad advice, contradictions and senseless violence.
“Dr. Larry Bates” wears many hats. He claims to be an economist, publisher, editor, former member of the Tennessee House of Representatives, former bank CEO and a “nationally recognized expert on political systems and the Federal Reserve.” Bates is also the President of First American Monetary Consultants, Inc. (FAMC), an organization that allegedly does “economic and market forecasting, in addition to offering a wide variety of other End Times services. “News and Views” is a syndicated radio show, available dozens of radio stations across the U.S. Larry Bates is thus well known in some circles.
After listening to Bates for only a few minutes, I learned that the United States needs to immediately and mercilessly bomb Iran because of what “those people” have done to “support terrorism.” I also learned that we need to support Israel without question, based upon what the Bible says. I persevered to the end of the show, saddened by and frustrated with the flimsy manner in which Bates attempted to support his conclusions.
At the end of the show, it was announced that Bates was going to be featured at a half-day conference in St. Louis, I took the bait. I thought it would be interesting to better understand the basis for the views of End Times (both economic End Times and religious End Times) proponents. The conference was called “Perilous Times: Significant End Time Events.” I paid $20 and showed up at the Crystal Ballroom of the Renaissance St. Louis Grand and Suites Hotel in downtown St. Louis. Here’s my ticket:
At the registration desk, I received a folder full of information. One of the pamphlets advised me that legalized gay marriage is a major obstacle to democracy:
When the US Supreme Court ruled in Lawrence v. Texas last year that sodomy is a constitutional ‘right,’ the director of the lambda legal fund-a radical homosexual-agenda of pressure group-gleefully explained that this marks the beginning of the end to traditional marriage.
Another pamphlet advised that the United States is officially a Judeo-Christian nation. It quoted William Penn: “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” This pamphlet, printed by FAMC, “proves” that the United States is a Christian nation based upon the fact that the Constitutions of many of the states mention “God,” or “the Creator.” As though non-Christian religions don’t believe in a “God” or a “Creator.”
There were numerous products displayed and advertised at the conference. These products are the sorts of things you’ll need to have if you are going to be prepared for the economic and religious End Times. If you want to prevent cancer, you need to load up on Glutathione. The pamphlet says “your life depends on Glutathione.” To buy it, contact FAMC, according to the pamphlet.
What if you just want to make sure that you have access to “the most universal antibiotic” known to man, colloidal silver? It’s a “tasteless, odorless, non-toxic, purer, natural substance consisting of submicroscopic clusters of silver particles suspended by a tiny electric charge placed on each particle.” According to the pamphlet, you drink it. It kills all those pesky pathogens and protects all your good cells. According to the pamphlet, it is useful for treating allergies, boils, herpes, stomach flu, lime disease, gonorrhea, bladder irritations and chickenpox. The list goes on and on. Colloidal silver can be used vaginally, anally or dropped into the eyes.” You can even make your own colloidal silver out of silver wire, using the $189 generator you can buy from FAMC.
Another pamphlet advised me of my right to participate in jury nullification whenever anyone is being prosecuted for a gun crime. That is because “corrupted, anti-gun prosecutors and judges are common.” This information is distributed by the Fully Informed Jury Association.
After the economic collapse, you’ll need to make better use of all that expensive gasoline that all of us are going to need. Therefore, make sure you buy the “Power Plus Mpg” additive. Using this Power Plus, you can save 25 to $.50 per gallon. During his talk (which I’ll discuss in detail further down), Larry Bates bragged that his 5 mpg SUV improved its mileage 50% (to 7.5 mpg) after he started using this Power Plus. Those attending the conference were even invited to sign up as Power Plus distributors.
Additional Pamphlets were available advising how to support efforts to find those “30,000 POWs [who] were known to be behind alive after WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf and War on Terror.” There was also a table full of conservative-message bumper stickers.
The nice old fellow minding that table offered me a chance to take any one of those bumper stickers for free. I really struggled to find anything that didn’t offend my politics (maybe I am a liberal). After searching for a full minute, I picked up Smoke - Choke - Stroke - Croak.
I wasn’t really at the conference to dwell on the End Times products, however. I was there to listen to “Dr. Larry Bates,” just like the 200 other people who attended. Although the crowd included a handful of young adults, most of those attending were in their 60s or 70s. As is often the case with groups of conservative Christians, this was an extremely polite and orderly group. People held doors for each other and took time to exchange pleasantries.
Dr. Larry Bates introduced himself and then introduced a local preacher who opened the meeting with a prayer. Almost everyone bowed their heads respectfully. Then it was time to offer a few door prizes. The winners had a choice of two books: The Coming Financial Wipeout or America’s Christian Heritage.
Then it was time for four-hours of lecture. Bates bemoaned the lack of pastors in the audience. He complained that too many church leaders were “eating the sheep rather than feeding the sheep.” He asked for a show of hands of those who believe that we were in the last days, and perhaps a third of the audience raised their hand. When he asked whether we were in the very last days, 15% raised their hands.
Bates informed the audience that their job was to “raise up wisdom.” This has to be done by taking back the media, he explained, although “Fox news is one of our best news channels.”
He explained that the next election is the most important one ever. It will be about “class warfare.” The election whether we’ll have less government and bigger government. It’s between monopolistic versus competitive capitalism. Although the Republicans are imperfect, according to a distressed Bates, the only real choice in this upcoming election is Republican. More on this further down.
The United States is under attack by economic and political elitists who want to keep the middle class trapped as pawns and serfs in this elitist version of a caste system. These are desperate times, because “There are only two countries in the entire world where the middle class runs the government or has the opportunity to run the government: the United States and Israel.”
The elitists are “One World Socialists” according to Bates. They want to level everyone out to make everyone equally poor, except for themselves. A repeated target of Bates was the Federal Reserve, which “only looks federal and has no reserves.” Bates could barely contain his scorn for the Federal Reserve, which, he repeatedly emphasized, was totally owned by private bankers.
Bates is highly suspicious of George W. Bush’s “New World order.” It is a conspiracy against the people of the United States, and it amounts to “one world socialism,” an attempt to make everyone poor except for an elite ruling class. He exhorted that the creation of the Federal Reserve was a conspiracy to rob the American middle class. The Federal Reserve is a “criminal syndicate.” According to Bates, the head of the Federal Reserve is more powerful than the president of the United States. In all earnestness, he told the crowd that the 1938 panic-provoking radio adaptation of “War of the Worlds” was not entertainment. It was a test by the government elite to see if the federal government could maintain control over the New World Order.
What are the elitists trying to do? They are trying to create a North American Union. They want to merge the United States, Mexico and Canada and to destroy the sovereignty of the United States. That’s why we have a lax immigration policy, he warned. What’s the solution? “Build a fence and keep them out.” If the rate of immigration exceeds your rate of assimilation, “you lose your country.” Throughout his talk, Bates insinuated that the impending economic collapse will coincide with the religious Second Coming.
The Democrats are the party of big government, militant homosexual “rights and domination.” The Democrats are Socialists, from the party of Karl Marx, where the government owns and controls everything, including all means of distribution and production. “Liberals hate property rights.” Bates drew numerous parallels to the Soviet Union, where people had to wait in long lines for everything. That’s what the Democrats would bring us, he urged.
He warned that you can’t overlook the Republicans just because are imperfect. He understands that “Jesus Christ is not on the ballot.” If you hurt the Republicans, “you hurt yourself.” “Dingy Harry Reid “is corrupt and Nancy Pelosi is “a disaster.” Whenever you have a strong economy, you’ve got limited government. “It’s that simple.” Are there any litmus test for politicians? Absolutely. Don’t vote for anybody who believes in any right to abortion. “Nothing tells you more about politicians that sanctity of life. If they don’t get this right, they get nothing right.”
What else did he think about some the candidates? There was no holding back. Hillary Clinton shouldn’t be president because God has a natural order for things. Bates paused to caution the audience, “I’m not a chauvinist.” Then he forged on: “God is the head of man and man is the head of women. A two-headed family is a freak.” He offered this evidence of his position: Indonesia is struggling because it is a matriarchy. To allow women to run the country is to violate God’s order. God says there should not be a woman president. It is as aberrant as “letting children run a household.”
According to Bates, “Barack Hussein Obama” (he repeated this full name several times) is a radical muslim who was educated in a radical muslim school. His Church is full of people who, according to Bates, hate white people. [For those who are concerned about Obama based on Bates' outrageous claims, check out this and this].
Are there some good Republican candidates? You bet, according to Bates. For instance, Tom Tancredo got it right when he recently got tough with Muslims. Bates described it like this: “if you use a nuclear device in the United States, then we will use a nuke to take out Mecca and Medina . . . [applause] . . . Brutal force is the only thing these birds understand.” Upon hearing and seeing this, I was stunned. Though I tried, I couldn’t recall the particular verse of the Bible where Jesus said, “If someone shits on you, shit on them.”
But Bates wasn’t done with the Muslims. According to Bates, the goal of Islam is “world domination under sharia law.” There are three types of followers of Islam, according to Bates. Type 1 is a revolutionary who sets off bombs. These people are terrorists. The second type is an evolutionary follower, distributing propaganda and prolifically “breeding.” The third type is a westernized Muslim who probably hasn’t even read the Koran. Nonetheless, those westernized Muslims will fall right in line, especially when those other Muslims threaten to cut off their heads or attack members of their families. The Koran “tells you “to kill and who to kill,” according to Bates. It tells you to kill Christians and Jews.
According to Bates, Sam Brownback of Kansas is misguided (too liberal) on immigration, perhaps because of his Catholic conversion. He doesn’t understand that we’ve simply got to keep those immigrants out.
What are some of the big issues of the upcoming election? National health insurance is a big issue. If we have national health insurance, it will “ruin the country. The country ends when we enact national health insurance.” What’s the evidence for this dramatic prediction? Tennessee has free government medical care, yet (according to Bates) nobody signs up for it. Therefore, there’s no need for national health insurance. Under national health insurance, Bill Clinton would have had to wait six weeks to get an appointment and six months to get his necessary surgery. National health insurance involves the “efficiency of the post office and the compassion of the IRS.” Furthermore, it will “drive the cost of health care way up.” National healthcare will bankrupt the country: “The government that can give you everything you want must, by definition, take everything you’ve got.”
Bates warns that people need to quit concerning themselves with the healthcare establishment. In fact, he’s suspicious of the healthcare system. People need to focus on preventing disease rather than treating it. They need a laugh more. “Laughter is better medicine.” People would “rather be victims-our diseases are other people’s faults.” People need to take responsibility for their own good health, said Bates, who looks to be a few pounds overweight. It all starts “with what you put in your body.” Bates then spent a serious chunk of time touting the healthcare products displayed on the tables in the lobby.
Bates explained that churches will need to get more into the healthcare business, because they have more to offer than the healthcare establishment. Churches have the courage to “tell the bums that they are bums” (I wondered what the bum lobby would think of this statement.
We have too much Blue Cross and Blue Shield. We depend too much on man and not enough on God. We’ve replaced God on the throne with government on the throne. We look to Jehovah government instead of God.
Bates announced that if anyone gets sick, it’s that person’s own fault. There are plenty of things you can do so that you don’t get sick, according to Bates. You can take regular doses of that colloidal silver I first learned about from the handouts. He announced that colloidal silver kills all bacteria. Someone in the back of the room then announced “Amen!” Gee, Larry, I wondered. Are you sure you want to kill all the bacteria in your body, including the beneficial bacteria that reside in your gut? He marched on, undeterred. Bates claims that he puts silver in his milk to keep it from spoiling. It will never spoil as long as you put silver in your carton of milk. He urged the audience to buy the colloidal silver generating kit, so they can make their own colloidal silver. He warned the audience that the FDA does not want people to know about the amazing healing powers of silver. The FDA doesn’t want the competition—it would put some big pharmaceutical companies out of business. In fact, the FDA is about to try to outlaw the use of silver as a medicine. Modern pharmaceuticals are “witchcraft.”
What else can you do to stay healthy? If you’ve got cancer, make sure you consider getting vitamin C injections. These have been phenomenally successful, according to Bates. This new knowledge about the healing powers of vitamin C reminded him that the Bible predicted “God’s plan of healing.” This kind of “new important knowledge” is another sign of “the last days.” We need to be the “salt” (disinfectant of the evil people) and the “light” (spreading wisdom). Bates warned that many believers are going to have to do God’s work on their own because churches “have been corrupted by world government.”
What would you do if you’re laid-off in the impending economic collapse? You need to get a trade. You need to do something with your hands, such as plumbing or electrical work. “The time will come when you have to barter your skills for someone else’s skills.” The End Times are apparently not going to be pretty.
The last section of the presentation was an indictment of US monetary policy. Bates pointed out that the United States now has $25 trillion in domestic debt which must be serviced, whereas the M2 money supply is only $7 trillion. This sets the stage for the economic End Times. The government can either go into default work or print fake money to dilute real wealth. He warns that the U.S. is busy printing lots of fake money. That’s what the recent $300 billion injection of “new money” was. It was used to allegedly stabilize the stock market. He warns that it would take a 7.1% added payroll tax to service our current debt, an amount that would break the backs of most families. Bates sees a massive restructuring of the social security system forthcoming, including raised taxes and reduced benefits, as well as means tests.
What can we do about the impending economic collapse? One thing is that we can make sure that no one takes away our guns, said Bates.
There will be no total economic collapse until there is total gun control. The tyrants don’t want to deal with an armed populace. The enemies of liberty hate your guns. The Second Amendment protects the First Amendment.
Here’s what else you can do, according to Bates. Elect people who will build fences to keep out the immigrants. Hone your communications skills, because the upcoming wars will be wars of world views. According to the Bible, “when you see the enemy, you’ll need to warn the city.”
As far as protecting your assets, Bates gives this advice: Stay away from “Loanership” assets, such as Money Market funds, T-bills and CD’s. They are “pieces of paper: IOU’s. Beware of real estate, in this age when the government is taxing it heavily and abusing eminent domain. Instead, load up on precious metals, such as gold and silver coins. This is especially important, given that the U.S. has long been off the gold standard, which has invited the dollar’s slide versus most currencies. He claims that you should not get gold or silver bullion because federal law gives the government the right to confiscate these in times of economic emergency.
Who’s going to buy your precious metal coins in the time of economic collapse? Bates is convincing to me when he answers that question with another question: “Who is going to buy your paper dollars?” He characterizes gold and silver as “money.” Everything else is only “credit.”
So Bates’ program includes both saving and eating silver! Where are you going to get all of those precious metals? From a reputable company like FAMC, of course. Bates tells you to buy precious coins and his company is happy to sell them to you. He told the crowd that precious metal coins are “real money” and that they will be exchangeable until the absolute end of time. Didn’t the Bible say that people will throw their gold and silver into the street? Absolutely, says Bates. But that will be toward the end, when we’ll see a “large scale transfer of wealth from the wicked to the righteous.” It’s all in the Bible, according to Bates. Up until those End Times, then, rely on precious metals, says Bates, citing Ezekiel 7:19 (”Precious metals very valuable until the time that God’s wrath is poured out”) and Haggai 2:6-9 (End time transfer of wealth using precious metals”).
Bates is not embarrassed about having money. “God doesn’t mind if you have nice things.” You should use and enjoy your money, he stresses. Have as much of it as you need, even if you use it to buy expensive houses, cars and vacations. No problem. It’s only the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. His literature cites Proverbs 28:20 (”Eager to get rich; will not go unpunished”), Ecclesiastes 2:26 (”One who pleases Him receives wealth”) and Genesis 2:11-12 (”God put gold in the earth for a reason”).
–
It’s hard to know how to sum up this Perilous Times Conference. The lessons taught by Bates are laced with radical conservative values, that is true. His characterizations of both Republicans and Democrats are cartoonish. His xenophobia and racism (especially toward women and people from the Middle East) are intense. His plan to capitalize upon the fears he drums up, both economic and religious, is predictable and obvious.
Bates has a ready and willing audience, because his targets are big and fat. Anyone with energy and creativity can vigorously hack away at pharmaceutical companies, drug companies, bankers, politicians and bureaucrats. If you can convince your audience that it might lose much of what it has worked for, you could readily stir up their deep fears about out-groups such as gays, women, atheists and immigrants.
Bates is playing a game that is played by many people who have some legitimate credentials. During the final portion of this conference Bates sometimes sounded like someone who was giving some reasonable economic advice based on sophisticated training. He sometimes spoke as person who relied on his training and experience in economics and banking. I am not an economist or a banker, and I have not read nearly enough to know the extent to which Bates is giving decent economic advice, though what I have read about United States fiscal policy also concerns me greatly. I’ve seen similar admonitions regarding the United States fiscal policy on “liberal” shows such as Bill Moyers. I think it is this part of the show that gives Bates the foot in the door with his audience.
Nonetheless, it is a standard trick to parlay one’s legitimate credentials far beyond the realm of one’s expertise. When Bates talks with ultra-assurance of the alleged Second Coming of Christ or when he touts the medical quackery he is so happy to peddle, he looks both naïve and devious. Shame on his audience members, though, if they really step up to buy that little bottle of fuel additive that will allegedly make their humongous SUVs get 50% better gas mileage. Shame on the people who think that the FDA is trying to outlaw silver potions because drinkable silver is so incredibly good that it would put pharmaceutical companies out of business. Shame on people who trust people who sell snake oil.
I couldn’t help but conclude that there is much in common among the sorts of people that listen to Bates and the sorts of people with whom I more commonly associate. We are all worried about our corrupt government, our poisoned food and water, our shortsighted fiscal policies, our many failing schools, our own deaths, about numerous people illegally pouring over our borders, about the many people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol and about a media with an agenda secretly dictated by those who hold disproportionate power. Many Believers and non-Believers are downright suspicious of organized religions. We differ profoundly, however, in the ways in which we would address these threats. What Bates offers is a bomb-shelter mentality. He relentlessly warns his audience of the need to hunker down and protect one’s own and let everyone else be damned.
As I left Perilous Times Conference, I wondered whether it would be an impossible task to convince the people in that audience to put down their Bibles and roll up their sleeves when they discuss politics. I wondered whether these people would ever be willing to open their minds to diverse ideas from people who might look and act differently than they do. I wondered whether Bates’ fans would ever be willing to look at their own cherished ideas as skeptically as they look at the ideas of others. I wondered whether they would ever be capable of pretending, even for a moment, that they were not under attack by all of those people of the world who they don’t know well. I wondered whether they could ever be convinced to consider that strangers are, for the most part, people with hopes, dreams and fears much like their own.
After mega-doses of Larry Bates, is it even possible for people to consider that there is a vast commonality all people share and that this could really be a starting point for a functional world view, one that is not based on paranoia?
August 13th, 2007 at 6:28 am
So the audience consisted mostly of the elderly, huh? Con artists love to prey on people in their late 60’s and beyond. And without the Christian underpinnings, Bates’ speech sounds exactly like a scammer’s shiny, deceptive spiel. Usually I wouldn’t feel much pity for a group ignorant or hate-filled enough to agree with Bates’ nonsensical message. But in this instance Bates has taken a paranoid fear of the End Times and used it to turn a profit on utterly ridicilous, expensive pseudoscience, taking advantage of the elderly so clearly that I pity them. These people applauded the idea of nuking Mecca, but I still feel sorry for them.
August 13th, 2007 at 10:06 am
E- So exactly which bumper sticker are you sporting this morning?
August 13th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
I think this guy sounds exactly like a muslim extremist. This is what the extreme, fanatical imams preach to the faithful at friday prayers. Bates also reminds me of the grand wizard of the kkk. Subtle hate and lots of fear. (subtle for an extemist) and so many lies—if people thought for themselves, or checked on some of the things preached to them, they would never be fooled by the likes of this jerk.
I wonder how big his following is—he is a ‘man of god’ they never lie, cheat, steal or molest.
August 13th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
name withheld: You won’t see me sporting those bumper stickers. Actually, some of those bumper stickers on display remind me of those days, back when I was a teenager, when I might have prayed for someone to please steal my virginity . . .
August 13th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Who would Jesus Bomb?
August 13th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
I’m impressed that you manage to identify with those people even to a limited extent. That’s quite a feat of empathy.
“There are only two countries in the entire world where the middle class runs the government or has the opportunity to run the government: the United States and Israel.”
It’s scary what the idea that someone might believe that says about the average geographical knowledge of the people in the audience.
August 14th, 2007 at 12:02 am
i agree with you on most points, larry seems like a nut; but i am a christian and do believe in inerrancy which makes me ask you: have you really studied scripture yourself or only heard opinions from others? like many people, you specifically say that from YOUR study YOU find contradictions in the Bible; can you give me one of those and will you listen to me when i show you why it is not a contradiction? usually people have not really studied for themselves, this label of the bible as self-contradicting is just an excuse for not listening to people who would like to tell you about their faith. I myself used to say just that until i read it myself.
i am not a religious fanatic as you want to paint some believers; will you dialog with me on this? thanks; jm
August 14th, 2007 at 7:42 am
I am not necessarily an “end-timer” but I do believe there are some directions this country (and world) are headed in that would upset any “Creator” in a biblical sense. I’m embarrassed to see some of the loose morals so prevalent in our society today.
I think abortion is a sick practice. It is only 1 step away from eating children in my view. If you can bring yourself to actually kill a child, what is going to keep you from going further and eating them too? It might be a hideous thought, but that is how sick I think abortion is. We are supposed to be a higher-thinking species. Some of us fall short.
On a religious side, Our Lady of America (The Virgin Mary) is said to have appeared in Rome City, IN in 1956 and She gave a series of messages akin to Fatima that have been coming true. Read about them and what is manifesting still today at http://www.oltiv.org It is worth a visit.
I enjoyed this article and appreciate your ability to stay patient amidst all the dribble.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:17 am
Unfortunately this is a common problem with religions groups and organizations in general. The average Joe/JoAnn are busy working and taking care of friends and family. They have legitimate concerns and frustrations and see no way of addressing the issues on their own.
Thus they look outward. Ultimately it leaves room for individuals of this ilk that push a message the patronage will subscribe to because they agree with 99% of what they hear, or should I say they agree with 99% of the sentiment they perceive.
The problem is that the 1% of the message is the most potent and dangerous.
The solution to your problem is my extreme view of the world. You cannot fix it but if you join with me together we can make a difference. At this point all common sense goes out the window!
August 14th, 2007 at 8:21 am
Never heard of you or Larry Bates before. Didn’t read more than a couple of paragraphs of your article. You’re too long winded. If you have something important to say, you ought to keep it short. This isn’t news, it’s a diatribe. In spite of the fact that I haven’t heard of either you or Larry Bates, I have heard of Jesus. I’d rather listen to Him then either you or Larry Bates.
August 14th, 2007 at 9:13 am
To those of you who have “heard of Jesus” or “read the Bible”: Please read up on Zoroaster/Mithra/Magi to see the original source for almost everything that Jesus is said to have said and done. Jesus is one in a line of many prophets running from shortly after the Torah was first collected (about 500 years after the time of Moses) to Mohammad and beyond. Jesus’ distinction is that he is the only one who is claimed to be God herself.
Then look into the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible to find some of the inconsistencies in Biblical testimony. This resource is not a new translation, but simply a guidebook to find those pesky passages that deny and/or controvert each other. They may be mutually inerrant, but they are certainly inconsistent.
I find the online multi-version Bible to be a good resource to see the differences between various “inspired” translations.
August 14th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Kay,
Let me know next time he puts in an appearance on TV—personally. As for longwinded, I understand the Sermon on Mount ran through dinner time and Jesus had to provide food or lose his audience.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Just because you are paranoid does’nt mean “they are not out to get you!”
(try reading news media/papers from other countries)
“The older I get, the wiser I get”
August 14th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Chris, I believe, if Jesus’ M.O. was to bomb anyone, he would cut a swath of destruction through many churches across the world that teach Christianity as many, like Larry Bates, are misusing God to their own purpose.
Erich, Larry Bates uses fear and ignorance to promote his views, which by the way are not Christian, but his own little soap box. The looks of all the paraphernalia he sells with his “serious speech” looks of a Pharisaical bazaar that Jesus hated.
The way Larry Bates speaks of the end of days is totally twisted form of what is mentioned in the Bible. To even say America is a Judeo-Christian nation is not only a non-Biblical idea, but crazy. I do not know what he is preaching it smells of a masterful con man and unfortunately, the people he is pulling in are only going to hurt themselves. It reminds me of all those people who sold all their worldly posessions then went to Israel to await the U.F.O.s to come and pick them up to take them to heaven or some other such nonsense that went on January 1, 2000.
Erich, the only question I have for you is, do you realize this man is not a Christian, and that he does not represent the views and values of God or Jesus?
August 14th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Xiaogou: In my mind, Larry Bates is a Christian, because he professes a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ. I am well aware, however, that there are many types of Christians. But Larry Bates does indeed represent one type of Christian.
If you want to convince Larry Bates that he’s not a true Christian, call his radio show and discuss it with him. I’d love to hear how that conversation goes.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Now this is what I call journalism! Great work shining a light on the crazies under this particular rock, Erich.
Incidentally, if you take too much of that colloidal silver, you’ll suffer a very unusual side effect: your skin will permanently turn grayish-blue. This happened to Stan Jones, a Libertarian candidate for the U.S. Senate back in 2002. There’s a picture of the fellow here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2297471.stm
Who knows - sooner or later Larry Bates may end up like that if he keeps going the way he has.
August 14th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Ebonmuse: Great bbc article. Maybe these guys are eating all that silver to drive up the price of the silver coins they still retain.
August 16th, 2007 at 7:02 am
Hello Eric
I enjoyed your article and the diverse topics covered. People should think about a few things like the recent 38 billion injection of liquidity by the fed the other day, do ya really think they wrote a check from the savings account? Hardly, that 38 billion dollars will be out there competing and thus diluting the purchasing power of the money we all earn to buy food. I wonder if people realize The Fed is not a government entity? It is privately owned by banks like BIS, Golman Sachs, Citibank ect. including numerous foreign entities. They are parasitic, stealing away the fruits of ones labor through inflation, you work for something thats worth less every day.
As for collodial silver, there are a lot of different types and one needs to be educated in the differences. You can get high amounts (50,000-300,000 ppm) and the particles are large (thus less effective) which can result in bluish tints to ones skin. I use one type called ASAP which is 10 ppm and is very effective. Collodial silver was produced by many phamacutecial companies until the dawn of antibiotics, it is now public domain and not very profitable to them. The good stuff kills over 650 disease organisms, after testing 23 different water purifying systems, NASA chose a silver based system for the space shuttle. Give me a buzz and i’ll hook ya up! LOL
August 21st, 2007 at 6:02 am
Sorry Erich I did not write back earlier. I know that Americans think anyone who says “Praise Jesus” and says he believes and throw a few Hail Mary’s for good measure must be Christian. And if we allow ourselves to believe in such simple definitions as such we will never get anywhere. One cannot truly attack such a faceless demagogue. In many beliefs if you know your enemy than you can defeat it. That is why Eskimos have so many different names of snow. If you want to stay warm and alive you will need to differentiate what is igloo making snow as opposed to just good for drinking water snow. If you just lump everyone who believes in Jesus as Christians you will get a lot of chaff in the mix. The believers in the book of Nod believe in Jesus and he is their main antagonist. You might add in Jews and Muslims in the mix as well. Then you will get a really strange view of Christianity if you don’t have one now. Call a spade a spade and when you deal in truths it is easier to cause this monster to fall.
As for the second part of the post, I will tell you a story of a man. He spoke out against the religious leaders who were falsely prophesying their faith and he really tried to tell them they weren’t who they were pretending to be and that they were leading all the good people to a bad place. He wanted these false leaders to change their heart. Instead, the leaders got together and murdered him. That in its simplest form is what Jesus was doing. Do you really think I could do better?
August 27th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Regarding your Larry Bates article, here’s my claim-to-fame honest-to-god-story with the so-called Dr Larry Bates.
About seven years ago I was listening to Larry and his yes-daddy-that’s-exactly-right son Chuckie on WWJC in Duluth, MN, talk about how the bible demands we execute murderers.
I called in and asked Larry and his son that if abortion is “murder”, should we execute women who have one. Larry and Chuckie first said we should execute the doctors, not the women. When I reminded them that there is a pill (RU-486) available for women to take, they both hemmed and hawed and never quite answered.
However, the very next day on his radio show, Larry apologized for not being clear. He said that as a society we SHOULD execute ALL women that have ever had an abortion. He admitted it was a difficult decision to expose the truth, and that he lost an advertiser for his view, but wanted to make it clear that we EXECUTE all women that have had an abortion.
Now there’s a real “Christian” for ya. YAAAAAA GOD!!!!!
William Lindquist
Sioux Falls, SD
October 21st, 2007 at 11:33 am
Hi Eric,
I enjoyed reading your about your experience at a Larry Bates conference. You are very articulate and thoughtful.
Yesterday, my husband and I attended his conference for the first time and much of it was as you described. There were a few points which differed such as his comments about Hillary Clinton. He did not say anything about her being a women as the reason she is not a viable candidate, but he did mention and rightfully so, the $800,000.00 of illegal campaign contributions she received and reluctantly returned.
Re: your statements that he is racist against muslims, I don’t know, but I do agree with his belief that racial profiling at airports is an excellent idea, considering that a very high percentage of terrorists who have hi-jacked or attempted to hi-jack or bomb planes have been Arabic men between the ages of 20 and 50 (roughly). I think Political Correctness in this area is stupid and dangerous.
And with regard to Mr. Bates’ support of the second amendment, I am also in agreement. Our founders were wise and knew well what they were doing when securing the right of free men to bear arms. We all surely can agree that the criminals will always have weapons— in the event of a riot or chaotic situation such as we saw in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina, I do not want to be a helpless victim, fully dependent on the government to protect me and my children. Even the police gave up and disappeared— unthinkable, but true. Why shouldn’t I be able to defend myself and my family with a gun in such a situation? The hypocrisy of those who speak publicly about taking this right away from me is evident to all. Although I do not currently have a personal handgun, I do intend to purchase one soon and get good training on the responsible use and storage of it. (not in that order–training first, then purchase).
Eric, you said of Mr. Bates, “He relentlessly warns his audience of the need to hunker down and protect one’s own and let everyone else be damned.”
In no way, did I get this impression at yesterdays conference. Mr. Bates encouraged people to take as many of the free literature, newsletters and various articles written by himself and others, as we needed to share the information with others in our families, neighborhoods and churches, etc.
You also said the following: “I wondered whether these people would ever be willing to open their minds to diverse ideas from people who might look and act differently than they do. I wondered whether Bates’ fans would ever be willing to look at their own cherished ideas as skeptically as they look at the ideas of others. I wondered whether they would ever be capable of pretending, even for a moment, that they were not under attack by all of those people of the world who they don’t know well.”
These comments strike me as sanctimonious and condescending. Although I would not describe myself as a Bates fan, I was an attendee of his conference and do agree with many of his views (although I was mortified by the claims of William Lindquist that Mr. Bates supposedly said he thinks all women who have had abortions should be executed–I can only hope it isn’t true–perhaps Mr. Lindquist could put up a link to that program??)
Your last statement quoted above seems strange, with all due respect. Who are “all those people of the world” that you are referring to? I certainly don’t believe I am under attack by some vague group of people of the world? And I do have friendships with others who do not believe as I do, including those of other nationalities. Finally, I enjoy reading books, especially historical novels, by foreign authors and watching foreign movies to learn more about the views and ways of life of other people around the world. We do have much in common as you said, especially in the realm of needs. However, our very nature does not lead us to choose peace as so many would wish. Just look at history for proof of this sad truth. There is a Prince of Peace who is Able to give us a peace that surpasses all understanding. Jesus.
I am a follower of Jesus. He is not just one prophet in a line of many as one writer above suggested, He is the Son of God and the only man or prophet who has risen from the dead. No other prophet claims that nor has over 500 witnesses to prove it. I believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light and my worldview is based on these beliefs. John 3:17 says, “God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” One modern book written by a former athiest who set out to prove that Jesus wasn’t who He said He was, is Lee Strobel. He wrote “The Case For Christ” as a result of his findings. He is a former editor of the Chicago Tribune and paints a compelling picture of the evidence that in fact, Jesus is who He says He is.
In summary, I think you bring up some valid concerns about Mr. Bates. My husband and I did not appreciate the sales pitches for the various products you mentioned (there is also a new one which enhances the release of stem cells naturally—it is a plant based product) and we are going to do further research on the investing advice (silver and gold coins). By the way, he did emphasize only a 30-35% investment in the coins—which I don’t recall you mentioning.
There is a fine line between fear mongering and telling it like it is. The complexities of world economics are challenging to understand to say the least and I don’t pretend to understand it clearly, but I do think we all ought to do our best to learn what is going on with our tax dollars and our government and to be clear on what is our responsibility and what is realistic to expect of the government. Therefore, I appreciate your efforts Eric to bring this to the public forum so we can talk about it.
Sincerely,
Michelle
Colorado
October 23rd, 2007 at 8:06 pm
OK…three guys are sitting on a beach.
One is a radical muslim, another a conservative right-winger Christian who is a little off balance with some kooky health potions and a carborator the oil companies have been trying to keep off the market, and a liberal who believes government solves problems and doesn’t create them.
The tide suddenly goes out and they get up and run off the beach and as they pass the cafe they yell “Tidal Wave”!! As I am taking in my latte, do I….A. Get up and run, or B. say to myself, hey that’s a radical muslim, a wacky rightwinger, and a liberal, they must be wrong”
Needless to say, regardless of the messenger, at least on the economic dangers facing the US due to the extreme irresponsibility of our government policies, I think we could be in for one heck of an apocalyptic economic spanking. Even the Comptroller of the U.S thinks so! What a wacky kind of guy!
Buy some silver, drink the latte.
November 11th, 2007 at 6:30 am
I attented Larry’s Denver Conference back in 2002, and I use to listen to his radio program for a few years, before I moved and no longer get his program. Anyway, at least Erich opened a door to see for himself. You would be insane to believe or agree with anyone 100% of the time! That is why our freedom is important; to filter and test all things, to seek the truth, so that the truth will set you free. Something the Muslim world doesn’t understand.
Fact, most problems in the world have something to do with radical Islam. Could I openly worship as a Christian or Jew in the Islamic countries? If you want proof go to http://www.persecution.com. These believers love and forgive their enemies, to the point of risking and forsaking everything they are. Killing Muslims will never turn them to Christ, only by our religious persecution, read the true stories of the Voices of the Martyrs (the real church)!
I have educated myself about how the banking system works and have read his books (good stuff)!! I personally purchased over 300 units of silver from FAMC. They are honest and do everything by paper, not in some computer like the banks (IOU’s).
Get wisdom, seek His Kindom first and see you when the smoke clears!
November 11th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Rafe writes: “…That is why our freedom is important; to filter and test all things, to seek the truth, so that the truth will set you free. Something the Muslim world doesn’t understand….”
I doubt Rafe has ever met a Muslim, much less has any comprehension *whatsoever* about what “the Muslim world” understands. Muslims are no better nor worse than Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc.: in any large population — especially any large population that worships invisible supernatural deities — there is a tiny percentage of radical nutjobs who believe in exterminating non-believers. Furthermore, as between Christianity and Islam, the main difference between them is that Christianity completed most of its purges before the invention of the printing press; thus, not many people are still talking about them…except, of course, for the Christian purges that occurred in places such as Northern Ireland, New England (e.g., Salem, MA), Latin America, etc. Christianity merely benefits from the fact that it had fifteen centuries to forcibly exterminate other religions in most of the western world, and was relatively successful in doing so.
As regards Rafe’s assertion that, “…most problems in the world have something to do with radical Islam,” I would say that most of the problems in the world have something to do with people who stereotype whole populations that they neither understand nor wish to understand. People like Rafe, for example, or Muslim extremists who, like Rafe, believe that everybody in the world should believe the same things they do.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Good article, Erich.
I personally think Bates is a bit over the top, though not entirely off the mark.
I appreciate the candor of the commentators here, on both sides of the issue, and can particularly relate to the comments made by Michelle/Colorado.
Well said, Michelle.
Blessings all around,
Bruce
November 30th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Well, well grumpy pilgrim…I offered proof, but you just blabber how equal I am with radical Islam when you offer no proof. The Arab world had many great inventions and thrived in trade until, radical islam came along and oppressed women and the rich culture that was once beautiful.
Here is some more proof about radical islam. At least in America and the rest of the free world you can name your Teddy Bear “Muhammed”. Boy I hope I do not get death threats from these muslim clerics that wanted to punish a teacher that let the classroom name the bear.
It’s people like grumpy pilgrim who probably couldn’t live under “sharia law”, but most Christians could. Grumpy, try living in muslim countries who follow that style of law and tell me I’m steroetyping. I have ate with Saudi muslims, my sister taught a Saudi man College math, I have schooled with Arabs and most like freedom from an oppressive religion sir!
Wake up people!!
November 30th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Rafe’s previous comment provides all the “proof” he demands in his second comment: he uses the terms “Muslim world” and “radical Islam” interchangeably, thus equating all Muslims with radicalism. Muslim extremists are a tiny, tiny percentage of the “Muslim world,” just as the Ku Klux Klan is a tiny, tiny percentage of the Christian world.
Rafe goes on to mention this week’s well-publicized example of Muslim extremism: a grade school teacher convicted of blasphemy for allowing her class to name a teddy bear, “Mohammed.” Again, I will point out that Christianity provides many examples of much more bloody persecution: the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, the Crusades, etc. The problem is not “radical Islam,” the problem is religious intolerance, whether by Christians, Muslims, Hindus or others. Even today there is considerable Christian radicalism, but people in the western world don’t always recognize it. The Branch Davidians in Waco, TX. The Mormon polygamists in southern Utah. The Bushites in the White House (who are responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Iraq). Just google the word “dominionism” and you’ll find still more examples.
Rafe also talks about living under sharia law, but Christian law can be just as brutal: e.g., stoning children to death for disobeying their parents, stoning women to death for having pre-marital sex, burning people at the stake for “heresy,” etc. Remember, it was Christians who condemned Galileo to lifetime house arrest for suggesting that the sun, not the earth, was the center of our solar system. I shudder to think what America might become if fundamentalist Christians were to get any more political power than they have already — forced prayer in schools, corporal punishment, laws against rape and incest victims aborting their fetuses, etc. And let us never forget how eagerly Bush and his Christian pals have embraced the tools of torture, imprisonment, misleading propaganda, etc., to advance their political agenda. They’ve created their own little version of the Inquisition right here in the 21st century.
Anyway, back to Rafe’s comment, we all need to carefully avoid branding entire (religious) populations by the deeds of a few radicals who cloak themselves in religion to justify their pursuit of power. Whether they call themselves Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, or something else, they are oppressive sociopaths and should be treated as such.
December 1st, 2007 at 3:51 am
I understood Rafe’s comment as criticism of radical Islam, not of Islam?
December 1st, 2007 at 2:24 pm
projektleiterin writes: “I understood Rafe’s comment as criticism of radical Islam, not of Islam?”
I’ll quote Rafe directly: “That is why our freedom is important; to filter and test all things, to seek the truth, so that the truth will set you free. Something the Muslim world doesn’t understand.
Fact, most problems in the world have something to do with radical Islam….”
Rafe made a sweeping (and absurd) generalization about “the Muslim world,” and in the very next sentence asserted that “most of the problems in the world have something to do with radical Islam.” Nowhere in either of Rafe’s comments does Rafe define “radical Islam,” nor distinguish it from “the Muslim world.” To the contrary, by using the two expressions in back-to-back sentences, without ever distinguishing them, Rafe creates the impression that “the Muslim world” and “radical Islam” can be used interchangeably.
In any case, we should not speculate, but, instead, ask Rafe to define “radical Islam” and explain how it differs from Rafe’s definition of “the Muslim world.”
December 1st, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Wow grumpy, do you really think the Spanish (Catholic) Inquisition, the Branch Davidians or a small sect of Mormons are the true Christian Church or is it you have a bias against Christianity? One must be honest why they support their views. I’m not apologizing for Christian wrongdoings and am not ashamed of being a Messianic believer. If you have a problem with Christians and Jews take it up with G-d!
How could I forget, about the Jews, who follow Torah and the early Christian church who suffered on crosses, stakes and eaten by starved lions to entertain Romans. We could do this all day long…but we live in the now grumpy, remember 911? Oh yeah, that was Bush’s fault. Global warming…Bush’s fault. Worlds’ opinion of the United States…Bush’s fault.
Stubbed my toe…Bush’s fault.
I am sure thankful for the country I live in, because our founding, slave owning fathers used Judeo-Christian tenets to give us our Constitution. Christian men died to free slaves, free people from Nazism, free people from Communism and will free people from Islam. Hallelujah!
December 2nd, 2007 at 3:04 am
Ok, grumpy, just say it, “q.e.d.”
December 3rd, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Rafe asks, “…do you really think the Spanish (Catholic) Inquisition, the Branch Davidians or a small sect of Mormons are the true Christian Church…?”
Rafe’s question can only be answered with another question: upon what basis are we to *objectively* identify “the true Christian Church?” Given that the Spanish Inquisition lasted for more than 350 years, that the Branch Davidians martyred themselves for their beliefs, and that the Mormon church has withstood more than a century of persecution, upon what basis are we to declare none of them to represent “the true Christian Church?”
Regardless of the answer to that tangential question, my point is that a lot of bad things have been done in the name of Christianity, just as a lot of bad things have been done in the name of Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, etc. Indeed, I’ll ask the same question about Islam that Rafe asked about Christianity: if the Spanish Inquisition does not represent “true” Christianity, then why should we believe Rafe’s assertion that the 9/11 attack by al Qaeda does represent true Islam?
As regards Rafe’s attempted defense of Bush, Rafe has conspicuously failed to address the fact that Bush and his Christian pals not only *did* sanction torture, imprisonment, misleading propaganda, illegal wiretaps, etc., but they continue to try to defend these blatantly immoral actions. If a foreign government were to treat captive Americans the way Bush has treated his “enemy combatants,” Americans would be screaming for military action. But when Bush and his Christian pals do it, self-described “Messianic believers” (like Rafe) jump to defend it. If Rafe considers him(her?)self to be a member of the “true Christian Church,” yet nevertheless approves of immoral behavior, then Rafe has obviously proven my point: the problem is not “radical Islam,” the problem is extremists (like bin Laden, Bush, Rafe, etc.) who cloak themselves in religion to try to justify their pursuit of power, even if that pursuit includes the use of blatantly immoral deeds — deeds that not only violate domestic and international law, but also the very same religious principles they claim to uphold. It is naked hypocrisy.
Indeed, to anyone outside Rafe’s cult of “Messianic believers,” Rafe’s desire to “free people from Islam” displays the exact same intolerance and religious persecution that Rafe equates with “radical Islam.” Notice, in particular, that Rafe wants to “free people from Islam” and not from *radical* Islam — again equating these two obviously different belief systems. To people like Rafe (people blind to their own radical religious bigotry), believers of other religions are *all* extremists to be conquered, just as believers in slavery, Nazism and communism were conquered. Perhaps this is why Rafe has such irrational beliefs about Muslims: being unaware of his/her own religious bigotry, Rafe, instead, pins this flaw on Muslims — declaring them all to be supporters of “radical Islam.” How convenient for Rafe that Muslims are all radicals, while even Messianic Christians are not.
I will close by, once again, pointing out that the problem is not “radical Islam,” the problem is religious intolerance — a distinction that I am now thankful to Rafe for so clearly illustrating.
December 4th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Grumpypilgrim, Let me take a stab at your ‘answer with a question’
You asked,”Upon what basis are we to *objectively* identify “the true Christian Church?”
On the basis of the Bible. Men will interpret the Scriptures to carry out their evil deeds, but at the end of the day, the Hebrew Srcriptures will always come out on top with the clear and ethical way to proceed. History proves that the Bible can end slavery, nazism, or Bushism. Men are most definitely screwed up, but the Hebrew Scriptures has the power to change lives and communities for the good.
I do question the Koran, because I don’t see the good they bring to the world at this time.
December 4th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Samar:
Sorry, but reading your quote I have the same feeling I would get watching a train wreck about to happen, knowing how some people around here are going to rudely awaken you to the nature of some of the “moral lessons” of the bible especially the old testament.
This site illustrates Bible stories with Legos, but be careful, it uses all the actual stories so some scenes are nor appropriate for family viewing.
December 4th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Vicki: That Lego site is quite elaborate. They even detail the death and misery of the great Flood: http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/the_flood/gn07_19_21.html
Here are a few things for Samar to review while he comforts himself with the idea that the Hebrew Scriptures are the perfect guide to clear and ethical living:
http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=732
http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1667
http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=846
http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=1550
December 5th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Samar: "the Bible can end slavery"? Have you read Exodus 21? That’s the second of the 2 tablets Moses brought down from the mountain. Note the rules about proper care of slaves.
The Koran pays as much or more homage to the Hebrew scripture than does the Christian testament. Islam stayed more true to the middle-Eastern morality of the Old Testament then does Europeanized Christianity.
Moral people in a culture that can afford to end slavery are what ends slavery. That some of these believe in the Bible is beside the point.
December 6th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
For once, Vicki and I are in total agreement: Samar needs to more carefully read the Bible. I nearly laughed out loud when Samar suggested, “…the Hebrew Srcriptures will always come out on top with the clear and ethical way to proceed.” If only that were even remotely true! Unfortunately, the OT is full of contradictions, not to mention God’s approval of things like rape, slavery, incest, infanticide, public stoning, murder…the list goes on. Almost anything you can name that we consider immoral or criminal today was either approved of, or committed by, the god of the OT.
Samar should also read the Koran, because, as Dan rightly points out, the Koran is indeed more true to the OT than is modern Christianity.
One other comment I want to add about this topic is that when I said, “the problem is religious intolerance,” I should have said that our inquiry should begin with religious intolerance but not end there. Obviously, many factors contribute to Islamic-inspired (or, more broadly, religious-inspired) violence. (Notice I prefer the phrase “religious-inspired violence” to the phrase “radical Islam,” because I don’t think anyone agrees on what the latter phrase means.) If we dig into the roots of Islamic-inspired violence, we will find all sorts of issues that conveniently escape mention in western media. Issues such as the fact that the western world can probably never “win” the so-called “war on terrorism” until it stops funding *both sides* of the war. At least some (probably most) of the money that pays for Islamic terrorism against the West comes from oil profits supplied by the West. As long as the West keeps pumping trainloads of money into unstable Mid-East countries, some of that money will likely reach the hands of violent people. Why else do we find Islamic-inspired terrorism a serious problem just fifty years after oil was discovered in the Mid-East, even though Islam has existed for a dozen centuries?
Likewise, the existence of theocracies is almost certainly another cause of religious-inspired terrorism. When we look around our world for the worst trouble spots — Sudan, Israel, Kashmir, Indonesia, Northern Ireland, Iran, Afganistan, etc. — we almost aways find a theocracy; i.e., state-sanctioned religious intolerance. Someday, perhaps far in the future of our species, we will conclude that theocracies just don’t work and that separation of church and state is a necessary condition for a peaceful world, but we’re just not there yet. Even in America, most of the calls for Bush to project violence around the world have come from fundamentalist Christians. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, fundie pastor John Hagee’s call for Bush to pre-emptively bomb Iran and fundie pastor Pat Robertson’s call for the assassination of Hugh Chavez are some of the examples that come to mind. Simply put: theocracies appear to be inherently dangerous, unworkable political systems that should be abolished, regardless of which religion they claim allegiance to — Islam, Christianity, Hindi, Judaism or other.
Anyway, my ultimate point here is that no religion yet invented has succeeded in setting clear, sensible moral rules. To the contrary, religion merely provides rules that are either: (a) codified versions of long-standing truths that need no religious support, or (b) arbitrary rules that have little relationship with common sense. We don’t need religion to tell us that murder and thievery should be crimes, while rules against things such abortion and stem cell research are plainly arbitrary and nonsensical. Religion merely transfers to some minority-appointed religious authority a decision that rightfully belongs either to individuals or to the broader society.
December 7th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Vicki, Dan, and G.Pilgrim.
You, like most Christians are woefully, and I do mean woefully ignorant of the Hebrew Scriptures. You all have a sunday school, elementary, understanding of what the Torah is. You gloss over the deeper meanings and claim authority of the very book you are so ignorant of, like most Christians.
You claim man’s common sense is the source of moral code. Give me a break. American native culture condoned thievery from other tribes. Are your truths more true than the native American truths? Oh, I get it, your intellectually more superior than the Americna natives were.
God has laid out the moral code. Which code offends you so? I will sincerely try and answer any contradiction you find in the Torah. The Jewish people have maintained the Oracles of Yahweh, which was given to them for safe keeping. They have done a wonderful job. Shalom.
December 7th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Well I think it at this point, it is unfair that grumpy pilgrim and the other “infidels”, (not a Christian word), never show their cards. What do you believe? The manifesto to what they right clearly shows they do not know the Hebrew Scriptures or the Koran.
So, I will ask, Why is Islam the “sacred-cow”? If someone like Salman Rushie writes a cartoon, book or says something that challenges Islam, it is evident that Islam has roots of anger and hate, not tolerance. Practising Muslems in America do not speak out, because they’re families back home will suffer persecution.
If you call my G-d (Yahweh)or His Son (Yeshua) a bad name or say that He is contradictive to His word and is unfair and hateful, you do not see crazies in the street calling for your heads! That is on you and you will have to answer to your creator.
Grumpy writes,”Someday, perhaps far in the future of our species, we will conclude that theocracies just don’t work and that separation of church and state is a necessary condition for a peaceful world”; Question, if you believe in evolution then you should not have a problem with any “species” of mankind killing one another, because the strong survives and adapts to carry on those precious genes. I know what you’ll say, it is by reason that we do not kill, rape, steel, lie, dishonor your mother and father and create idols, love the Lord with your whole heart, etc…I guess I just don’t have enough faith in macro-evolution.
No to religion, but yes to faith in a merciful God who created you all and sent His Son to die for our filthy sinful life so we will have eternal life!
December 7th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Vicki,
http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/sodom_and_gomorrah/gn19_05.html
Is this really true?? Also what he said about them taking his virgin daughters instead of the men?
December 7th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
This is freaking me out!
December 8th, 2007 at 7:24 am
Proj: For a bit of balance, try the multi-version bible: http://bible.cc/genesis/19-5.htm. My father (who read the bible in Hebrew, Greek, German, and English) told me that this particular “know” that several translations made into “have sex with” actually simply meant, “find out about”. After all, mysterious foreigners come in and this guy takes them in and treats them as VIP’s. Suspicious, nyet?
But the part about him trading his daughter’s virtue for an evening of peace is dead-on. Good behavior with God’s seal of approval.
December 8th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Samar claims that we are out of touch with the “deeper meanings” of the Bible. “Deeper Meanings” is a synonym for “unexpressed ideas” or “deconstructed interpretations”.
If, as some narrow-minded Christians maintain, the Bible is literal and perfect, then these unwritten mandates must be ignored for the greater truth.
If, as Jewish and Muslim believers maintain, the Bible is largely a collection of poetic allegory, then multiple interpretations of every line may (nay must) be entertained. Both sides of any issue can be justified by it.
As for my own interpretations, I was raised by the son of an Israeli Temple elder. My father read the Old Testament and the Talmud in Hebrew and the Lutheran texts in German, his twin birth languages. He read the New Testament in Greek and in at least one English version as well. I generally accept his interpretations as more valid than those of people who have only read it in one language. Especially if it is English translation from the Greek version that actually was translated back from the Latin for passages that never existed in Greek before. All English versions have this flaw. See http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=668
As for “American native culture condoned thievery from other tribes.” So does the Bible. What did the Hebrews do to Jericho? Many other examples of righteous taking and slaying and raping are justified by God in the Bible. The same God who nominally forbids this behavior.
Any sociologist can show in detail how morality necessarily evolves to suit environmental conditions. It doesn’t come from a book.
December 9th, 2007 at 4:26 am
Thanks for the link, Dan.
If the part of giving away his virgin daughters is true though, I find it a bit more likely that the men outside were not only interested in getting to know the guests. I mean, even if women were not considered to be equal, handing out your virgin daughters to a bunch of men strikes me as something extremely drastic, not something that you would (or even could) do every day. He would also have to justify his action to his future son-in-laws. I think the only reason he would do so was if there was indeed a real danger to his guests whom he felt obliged to protect as part of the hospitality he had offered them. I assume, in this case his daughters were expected to do their part as the hosts?
Maybe the translation that they wanted sex with the guests is not the correct translation, but I do not assume that they had only been out for a chat. Maybe it was more like a euphemism and the translation was a bit more explicit.
December 10th, 2007 at 7:47 am
Dan,
The Hebrews were not allowed to take anything from Jericho. So it cannot be compared to a culture of thievery. The deeper meaning to Jericho is the Firstfruits always belong to God. Jericho was the first city (the fruitfruit). Anyway, I understand your points. I understand that men will claim an interpretation and use it to their own gain.
Even though the Scriptures have been used to perpetrate evil, the Torah will always untwist the Scriptures that the Gentiles are so good at twisting. The God of Israel is always for the widow, the poor, and the orphan. The Torah is very clear about that.
To put morality in the hands of ‘evolving’ humans is a grave error in judgement. Mob rules. Humans without a healthy fear of God are no more than the unmerciful opportunists we witness in nature. Men will pray on the widow, the poor, and the orphan because they are the weakest.
December 10th, 2007 at 9:42 am
Dan writes, “Many other examples of righteous taking and slaying and raping are justified by God in the Bible. The same God who nominally forbids this behavior”. You are horribly wrong, God(Yahweh) punished those who did not follow his instructions. It is impossible for Him to contradict Himself.
Paul (Saul)writes,
2Thessolonian 1:5All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
1 Cor 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
I will end with this quote, 1 Cor 2:14 “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned”.
It was fun, and I hope you all do not hate me for my earlier sarcasim.
Peace and goodwill, Rafe.
December 10th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Shorter Rafe: You’re wrong, and you will burn in hell for disagreeing with me. Have a nice day!
Samar: I agree that there is value in ancient traditions, especially if the historical context is taken into account. But if to “put morality in the hands of ‘evolving’ humans is a grave error in judgement,” does it show much better judgment to leave the interpretation of god’s law up to humans? Seems like we’re always going to have to go with our best guess of what’s the right thing to do, based on a combination of our critical faculties and gut intuition, whether or not we also use an ancient text as a guide.
December 10th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Vicki,
It would show good judgement, in my opinion, to allow the interpretation of God’s laws to be handled by those He gave it too. The Jewish people and those who follow Torah. The Torah is slowly being restrored to the followers of the Jewish Messiah. The original church was Jewish. The greatest evangelist were Jewish (Paul, Peter, James, etc). The gentiles are starting to abandon the traditions of their forefathers and accept their Jewish roots. Sorry, I’m rambling.
I agree, we need to do our best. In a nutshell this is Torah: “Do not do to anyone, what you hate. Now, go learn the rest of Torah.” Shalom.
December 10th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
Uh oh. Now I have the same feeling I would get watching a train wreck about to happen . . .
December 11th, 2007 at 11:53 am
Samar - not really following you. Seems like instead of solving the problem I posed - which interpretation of god’s law to choose - with another problem: which of god’s “chosen people” to choose, so to speak. To me, it’s seems rather arbitrary to restrict ourselves from among the various “chosen people” of the Judeo-Christian tradition. There are lots of other ethnic groups who believe they have a special contract with the universe. I once saw a show on PBS about a tribe in the Andes who believe that the world continues to exist because of a certain kind of singing they perform. To me, this is a much more aesthetically pleasing version of “chosen people” myth. I am all for supporting this tribe’s right to continue practicing their traditions on their ancestral lands, so the world can continue to exist.
December 11th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Vicki: That tribe in the Andes must be singing a bit off key these days because the world seems to be in quite a bit of turmoil.
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Thank you! You are doing a great service in exposing this quack. l live in Tennessee and know that the the Tennessee House is overrun with self-professed Christians who take away health care and damn anyone who isn’t wealthy. The few real democrats in the Tennessee politics who care about the masses have genuine cause to fear for their life. Even Al Gore, as wealthy as he is. I think Bates is right about the global elitist trying to have a global feudal system. But it is nuts like Bates who take quotes from the Bible out of context and do the exact opposite that Jesus would do. Unfortunately, most people have never completely read even one of the several versions of the Bible and do not know this
January 9th, 2008 at 3:55 am
Larry Bates said in 2005 that he sold a pretty good sized farm in TN and put the proceeds all in silver, saying that silver is about to be in extreme short supply, and that it follows the reverse pattern of the declining dollar. I think silver was in the 6.00 range back then it is almost 16.00 now.
February 19th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
This report was insightful. I was looking for reviews of a book written by Larry Bates called The New Economic Disorder, because I saw him speak briefly on The Jewish Voice Ministries show with Jonathan Bernis. Even though some of what Mr. Bates said, “seemed” valid to me, I was hesitant because many of these kinds of programs appear to be just wanting to raise money. I’m not against that either, but I’ve seen so many flim flams “using” religious people, that I try to find out all I can before buying reading materials.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Every knee shall bow!
March 22nd, 2008 at 10:05 pm
I Listen to Larry and Chuck’s radio program almost daily, and although they are conservative in both their economic and political views, I do believe that they have Godly laser-sharp precision on the economy. They see the direction not only that it is going, but the direction that it will go, all based on basic fundamentals. If you take Larry’s advice, you may not double your money every couple of months, but like he says, he will try to teach you “How not to become poor.” Larry has been a blessing to me and I hope him and Chuck keep doing what they are doing, as the Lord leads.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:38 am
My questions begin with why are you so vehement in your disagreement of the Bible being the total handbook on how we should live. Do you not accept it as true word of God, no matter who held the pen? Men have written great documents besides the Bible. It sounds to me that your real argument is the secular one of ‘there is more than one way to heaven”. If your premise is true than the Bible is full of hypocrisy and Jesus died a useless death. I know that Christians are extreme compared to the secular world view, but your views are like that to us. God loves us enough to tell us the future and then give us a choice. That is mercy and grace, the world does not give those wonderful gifts. I desire the truth as much as you, but be careful where you find it.
April 15th, 2008 at 8:10 am
I hear the author whining about Dr. Bates because he is not tolerant of Dr. Bates views. However Dr. Bates has been exactly right about the economy,the falling Dollar,the banking debacle(Bear Stearns etc.) . It appears your world view in the original post is slanted and bigoted to me. If you have 20 years of evidence your post modern beliefs actually being beneficial,please step up like Dr.Bates with some real solutions. To sum up your point it appears you think the economy will do just fine if we keep plundering it,and if a Christian has proved you wrong that you have a problem with them being right because they are a Christian and your intolerance can’t accept the fact that they are right about social ills as well as financial ills. I think you have shown how narrow minded you views are. FDr. Bates is right about this and you are simply wrong!
April 15th, 2008 at 8:18 am
CK: Go back and read the post before making accusations. I expressed sympathy with the economic concerns and advice of Bates. I admit that I do part ways with him on many other topics.
It’s not often that I’m accused of being a bigot. I’m interested why you would make that accusation.
May 5th, 2008 at 3:03 am
Erich ,, I hope you get this,, thanks for all your attention and experience ,, for being in that presentation by Bates when you could be sitting on a beach somewhere or watching your favorite sports on tv..
Google led me to your site when while searching for Larry Bates,, He was interviewed alittle in a documentary on Google video called “the money masters”.
LIke you I have alot of experienced filters which contemplate information in a very organic and living experiential way.. thanks to extensive opportunities of living naturally with fairly uncontaminated people. fisically, mentally and spiritually. Usually native people with little access to media.
So after all this kind of experience, the filters clog up fast with sensationalist media or opinions,
Thats partly why i had to google his name,, because the Money masters was a major answer to the many questions that worldly experiences provide.
“The money masters” has become a staple for me to give to others as reference material before learning about the world in general wether it be politics, religion. philosophies. etc .etc…. since everything is done with money.. it often accentuates the outline of historic events that media so effectively changes the shape of , masking it and its effect on the world psyche.
SO check it out and tell me what you think.. its a gem of truth.
I am utilizing the video as a ” starting point to a functional world view”.
Fractional reserve lending, if the video is correct, reduces the credit of the dollar by more than 8 times. which makes society work 8 times as much as we really need to in order to live with what we have.
Therefore by making our own currency, not monopolized gold or silver, we can escape debt and start using a full reserve banking system to finance the good intentions we have for humanity/earth, 8 times more successfully than we can do with the current fraudulent banking system.
We must teach people what money is .. without all the crap that Larry adds along with it.. ,thanks again,, james
June 10th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Larry Bates
I have watched some of his tapes and have listened to what he has to say.
He has worked in the Banking industry and is very knowledgable in most of the worlds financial situation. I would take him serious if I were you. There are some very serious things going on right now and it is not just a little bump in the road this time. You could be any religion and still listen to what he has to say. There are good and bad people in any culture and history. A lot of the information he talks about is out there if you care to research for yourself.
July 2nd, 2008 at 2:23 am
To all the participators in the above dialogue.
July 2nd 2008
Forget all your rhetoric.
The true test of real truth, is knowing the Truth.
“You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”
You can quote all the scriptures you like, but if you don’t know the Author personally, then your words are just dead letters.
To know the Living Word is the true plumb-line.
For only by really knowing are you able to truly discern between what is real and what is false.
Now, I am not asking you to follow me or my church etc.
But, to get to know in reality the One who said “I Am the Way the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father but by Me”
When you know Him, The Truth; when He truly comes into your life in full and true reality, then you will know all things, and you will not need any man to teach you.
Noel Wood
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:33 am
Noel: As a person who respects the scientific method, who is somewhat skeptical, and who tries to use words that have meanings that are widely shared, I have no idea what you are trying to communicate.
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:47 am
I thought Noel was clear enough: His chosen invisible friend is the real deal. Once you accept that, then all else is trivial. Any statement about said friend is true in all contexts, even if there is no discernible relationship to the topic at hand, nor any logical consistency.
July 14th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Erich, thanks for sharing your research on Larry Bates. I have some additional questions for anyone. What bank did Larry Bates work for? What does he have a Ph.D in, and from what college? Did he work for the Federal Reserve and at what capacity? I’ve seen a number of financial advisors who use fear as a means of motivating people to move their investments to their financial vehicles. Since they always predict the worst they are sometimes right. He told my wife that we should move 50% of our assets into gold at one time. In general when you want to make a major financial investment you spread it out to mitigate risk. For all these reasons and his strange political and religious views I am very concerned about the integrity of this man. Does anybody know in particular how credible this man is? I mean this in the sense of how honest he is with other people’s money. Most financial institutions have track records – charts and graphs demonstrating their returns. I haven’t seen anything like this from his website. Also, there must be some records of complaints. I’ll follow up on that but If someone knows where to find this – thanks!
July 14th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
John: I don’t know much about Larry Bates, other than what he claimed at his talk. I just spent 10 minutes Googling Bates, and I haven’t yet found a detailed biography of him. Maybe someone else can find one. If so, post a comment here.
As I mentioned in the post, I found some of his economic concerns credible (I am also concerned about many of the economic policies of the U.S.), but I parted ways with Bates on the topics of politics and religion.
July 15th, 2008 at 11:53 am
On today’s show (July 15, 2008), Larry Bates stated that the U.S. needs to stay in Iraq because we need their oil. Maybe someday he will admit that the U.S. invaded in the first place to “assist” the Iraqis to send their oil to the U.S.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
I am sorry to read that you do not believe the Bible–The Holy word of God. God says “if you lack wisdom-ask for wisdom. Just because YOU don’t believe does not change anything–you will stand before God just as we all will- THEN you will know the truth. God-Jesus-The Holy Spirit are as real and alive as you and I. God gives everyone a choice–He is not pushy. I KNOW beyond any shadow of doubt that my God is real and that He loves ME!!!!!!!!
As for Larry Bates—he too will have to answer to God just as all the ones on t.v. begging for money–”plant your seed and God will bless you”.
My God blesses me everyday of my life and He DOESN’T ask for money!!!!
July 20th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Sara: I do believe that there are many books, each of which is known as “the Bible.” I know for a fact that these books (known as “the Bible) have each been altered repeatedly and that many of the modern day versions of “the Bible” contain errors, omissions and some major intentional alterations not intended by the original writers (whoever they might have been).
As you probably suspect, I don’t believe that any version of the modern day Bible was “divinely inspired” any more any other work of literature.
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:29 am
It seems that all the ills of society may be cured by following the wisdom of Mr. Bates.
Perhaps Mr. Bates’ claims of “healing” should be explored as to whether there is any efficacy in his proffered (and profitable!) treatments.
Otherwise, I think Mr. Bates belongs in jail for the same kind of snake oil salesmanship as others have been similarly punished for in the past.
July 22nd, 2008 at 11:35 am
Re: above comment
It appears that if one were to use as much silver as Mr. Bates suggests, it would truly be their “end time.”
August 14th, 2008 at 11:46 am
FYI: Found this online re: Larry Bates from 2005, FWIW:
[...]
Media: “Unravelling the New World Order” Becomes “News & Views”
“Unravelling the New World Order” Becomes “News & Views”
New Name Gives New Listeners Better Picture of Radio Talk Show
[ClickPress, Mon Jun 27 2005]
MEMPHIS, Tennessee – June 27, 2005 – The Information Radio Network announces today that its hottest live talk show has a new title, and has expanded to two hours. After 15 years on the air, “Unravelling the New World Order” becomes “News & Views,” and continues to expand into other markets. IRN wants new listeners to know what the show is really about.
Dr.