Larry Bates offers his prescription for End Times woes: buy and eat silver
Once in a while, I tune into KJSL, a St. Louis Christian talk radio station. I do this as part of a conscious effort to make myself listen to people with views that are dramatically different from my own. Perhaps I will understand those views better if I take the time to listen more.
While I was driving last week, the station featured a show called “News and Views,” hosted by a man named “Dr. Larry Bates.” The host repeatedly painted the future of the US as bleak, thanks to irresponsible financial policies by the federal government. Because I have some sympathy with that general conclusion, I continued to listen. It turned out that Bates was predicting the imminent financial collapse of the United States. Although I doubted that conclusion, I continued to listen.
Bates then indicated that he is also a big proponent of religious “End Times.” In short, he believes that Jesus will soon be returning to Earth in order to sort things out. I have no sympathy for this religious view. In fact, I find End Times beliefs to be irresponsible and destructive for the numerous reasons. For example, I do not hold the Bible to be inerrant. Based on my study of the Bible, although it offers some good stories and some reasonable moral instruction, it is also rife with bad advice, contradictions and senseless violence.
“Dr. Larry Bates” wears many hats. He claims to be an economist, publisher, editor, former member of the Tennessee House of Representatives, former bank CEO and a “nationally recognized expert on political systems and the Federal Reserve.” Bates is also the President of First American Monetary Consultants, Inc. (FAMC), an organization that allegedly does “economic and market forecasting, in addition to offering a wide variety of other End Times services. “News and Views” is a syndicated radio show, available dozens of radio stations across the U.S. Larry Bates is thus well known in some circles.
After listening to Bates for only a few minutes, I learned that the United States needs to immediately and mercilessly bomb Iran because of what “those people” have done to “support terrorism.” I also learned that we need to support Israel without question, based upon what the Bible says. I persevered to the end of the show, saddened by and frustrated with the flimsy manner in which Bates attempted to support his conclusions.
At the end of the show, it was announced that Bates was going to be featured at a half-day conference in St. Louis, I took the bait. I thought it would be interesting to better understand the basis for the views of End Times (both economic End Times and religious End Times) proponents. The conference was called “Perilous Times: Significant End Time Events.” I paid $20 and showed up at the Crystal Ballroom of the Renaissance St. Louis Grand and Suites Hotel in downtown St. Louis. Here’s my ticket:
At the registration desk, I received a folder full of information. One of the pamphlets advised me that legalized gay marriage is a major obstacle to democracy:
When the US Supreme Court ruled in Lawrence v. Texas last year that sodomy is a constitutional ‘right,’ the director of the lambda legal fund-a radical homosexual-agenda of pressure group-gleefully explained that this marks the beginning of the end to traditional marriage.
Another pamphlet advised that the United States is officially a Judeo-Christian nation. It quoted William Penn: “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” This pamphlet, printed by FAMC, “proves” that the United States is a Christian nation based upon the fact that the Constitutions of many of the states mention “God,” or “the Creator.” As though non-Christian religions don’t believe in a “God” or a “Creator.”
There were numerous products displayed and advertised at the conference. These products are the sorts of things you’ll need to have if you are going to be prepared for the economic and religious End Times. If you want to prevent cancer, you need to load up on Glutathione. The pamphlet says “your life depends on Glutathione.” To buy it, contact FAMC, according to the pamphlet.
What if you just want to make sure that you have access to “the most universal antibiotic” known to man, colloidal silver? It’s a “tasteless, odorless, non-toxic, purer, natural substance consisting of submicroscopic clusters of silver particles suspended by a tiny electric charge placed on each particle.” According to the pamphlet, you drink it. It kills all those pesky pathogens and protects all your good cells. According to the pamphlet, it is useful for treating allergies, boils, herpes, stomach flu, lime disease, gonorrhea, bladder irritations and chickenpox. The list goes on and on. Colloidal silver can be used vaginally, anally or dropped into the eyes.” You can even make your own colloidal silver out of silver wire, using the $189 generator you can buy from FAMC.
Another pamphlet advised me of my right to participate in jury nullification whenever anyone is being prosecuted for a gun crime. That is because “corrupted, anti-gun prosecutors and judges are common.” This information is distributed by the Fully Informed Jury Association.
After the economic collapse, you’ll need to make better use of all that expensive gasoline that all of us are going to need. Therefore, make sure you buy the “Power Plus Mpg” additive. Using this Power Plus, you can save 25 to $.50 per gallon. During his talk (which I’ll discuss in detail further down), Larry Bates bragged that his 5 mpg SUV improved its mileage 50% (to 7.5 mpg) after he started using this Power Plus. Those attending the conference were even invited to sign up as Power Plus distributors.
Additional Pamphlets were available advising how to support efforts to find those “30,000 POWs [who] were known to be behind alive after WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf and War on Terror.” There was also a table full of conservative-message bumper stickers.
The nice old fellow minding that table offered me a chance to take any one of those bumper stickers for free. I really struggled to find anything that didn’t offend my politics (maybe I am a liberal). After searching for a full minute, I picked up Smoke – Choke – Stroke – Croak.
I wasn’t really at the conference to dwell on the End Times products, however. I was there to listen to “Dr. Larry Bates,” just like the 200 other people who attended. Although the crowd included a handful of young adults, most of those attending were in their 60s or 70s. As is often the case with groups of conservative Christians, this was an extremely polite and orderly group. People held doors for each other and took time to exchange pleasantries.
Dr. Larry Bates introduced himself and then introduced a local preacher who opened the meeting with a prayer. Almost everyone bowed their heads respectfully. Then it was time to offer a few door prizes. The winners had a choice of two books: The Coming Financial Wipeout or America’s Christian Heritage.
Then it was time for four-hours of lecture. Bates bemoaned the lack of pastors in the audience. He complained that too many church leaders were “eating the sheep rather than feeding the sheep.” He asked for a show of hands of those who believe that we were in the last days, and perhaps a third of the audience raised their hand. When he asked whether we were in the very last days, 15% raised their hands.
Bates informed the audience that their job was to “raise up wisdom.” This has to be done by taking back the media, he explained, although “Fox news is one of our best news channels.”
He explained that the next election is the most important one ever. It will be about “class warfare.” The election whether we’ll have less government and bigger government. It’s between monopolistic versus competitive capitalism. Although the Republicans are imperfect, according to a distressed Bates, the only real choice in this upcoming election is Republican. More on this further down.
The United States is under attack by economic and political elitists who want to keep the middle class trapped as pawns and serfs in this elitist version of a caste system. These are desperate times, because “There are only two countries in the entire world where the middle class runs the government or has the opportunity to run the government: the United States and Israel.”
The elitists are “One World Socialists” according to Bates. They want to level everyone out to make everyone equally poor, except for themselves. A repeated target of Bates was the Federal Reserve, which “only looks federal and has no reserves.” Bates could barely contain his scorn for the Federal Reserve, which, he repeatedly emphasized, was totally owned by private bankers.
Bates is highly suspicious of George W. Bush’s “New World order.” It is a conspiracy against the people of the United States, and it amounts to “one world socialism,” an attempt to make everyone poor except for an elite ruling class. He exhorted that the creation of the Federal Reserve was a conspiracy to rob the American middle class. The Federal Reserve is a “criminal syndicate.” According to Bates, the head of the Federal Reserve is more powerful than the president of the United States. In all earnestness, he told the crowd that the 1938 panic-provoking radio adaptation of “War of the Worlds” was not entertainment. It was a test by the government elite to see if the federal government could maintain control over the New World Order.
What are the elitists trying to do? They are trying to create a North American Union. They want to merge the United States, Mexico and Canada and to destroy the sovereignty of the United States. That’s why we have a lax immigration policy, he warned. What’s the solution? “Build a fence and keep them out.” If the rate of immigration exceeds your rate of assimilation, “you lose your country.” Throughout his talk, Bates insinuated that the impending economic collapse will coincide with the religious Second Coming.
The Democrats are the party of big government, militant homosexual “rights and domination.” The Democrats are Socialists, from the party of Karl Marx, where the government owns and controls everything, including all means of distribution and production. “Liberals hate property rights.” Bates drew numerous parallels to the Soviet Union, where people had to wait in long lines for everything. That’s what the Democrats would bring us, he urged.
He warned that you can’t overlook the Republicans just because are imperfect. He understands that “Jesus Christ is not on the ballot.” If you hurt the Republicans, “you hurt yourself.” “Dingy Harry Reid “is corrupt and Nancy Pelosi is “a disaster.” Whenever you have a strong economy, you’ve got limited government. “It’s that simple.” Are there any litmus test for politicians? Absolutely. Don’t vote for anybody who believes in any right to abortion. “Nothing tells you more about politicians that sanctity of life. If they don’t get this right, they get nothing right.”
What else did he think about some the candidates? There was no holding back. Hillary Clinton shouldn’t be president because God has a natural order for things. Bates paused to caution the audience, “I’m not a chauvinist.” Then he forged on: “God is the head of man and man is the head of women. A two-headed family is a freak.” He offered this evidence of his position: Indonesia is struggling because it is a matriarchy. To allow women to run the country is to violate God’s order. God says there should not be a woman president. It is as aberrant as “letting children run a household.”
According to Bates, “Barack Hussein Obama” (he repeated this full name several times) is a radical muslim who was educated in a radical muslim school. His Church is full of people who, according to Bates, hate white people. [For those who are concerned about Obama based on Bates' outrageous claims, check out this and this].
Are there some good Republican candidates? You bet, according to Bates. For instance, Tom Tancredo got it right when he recently got tough with Muslims. Bates described it like this: “if you use a nuclear device in the United States, then we will use a nuke to take out Mecca and Medina . . . [applause] . . . Brutal force is the only thing these birds understand.” Upon hearing and seeing this, I was stunned. Though I tried, I couldn’t recall the particular verse of the Bible where Jesus said, “If someone shits on you, shit on them.”
But Bates wasn’t done with the Muslims. According to Bates, the goal of Islam is “world domination under sharia law.” There are three types of followers of Islam, according to Bates. Type 1 is a revolutionary who sets off bombs. These people are terrorists. The second type is an evolutionary follower, distributing propaganda and prolifically “breeding.” The third type is a westernized Muslim who probably hasn’t even read the Koran. Nonetheless, those westernized Muslims will fall right in line, especially when those other Muslims threaten to cut off their heads or attack members of their families. The Koran “tells you “to kill and who to kill,” according to Bates. It tells you to kill Christians and Jews.
According to Bates, Sam Brownback of Kansas is misguided (too liberal) on immigration, perhaps because of his Catholic conversion. He doesn’t understand that we’ve simply got to keep those immigrants out.
What are some of the big issues of the upcoming election? National health insurance is a big issue. If we have national health insurance, it will “ruin the country. The country ends when we enact national health insurance.” What’s the evidence for this dramatic prediction? Tennessee has free government medical care, yet (according to Bates) nobody signs up for it. Therefore, there’s no need for national health insurance. Under national health insurance, Bill Clinton would have had to wait six weeks to get an appointment and six months to get his necessary surgery. National health insurance involves the “efficiency of the post office and the compassion of the IRS.” Furthermore, it will “drive the cost of health care way up.” National healthcare will bankrupt the country: “The government that can give you everything you want must, by definition, take everything you’ve got.”
Bates warns that people need to quit concerning themselves with the healthcare establishment. In fact, he’s suspicious of the healthcare system. People need to focus on preventing disease rather than treating it. They need a laugh more. “Laughter is better medicine.” People would “rather be victims-our diseases are other people’s faults.” People need to take responsibility for their own good health, said Bates, who looks to be a few pounds overweight. It all starts “with what you put in your body.” Bates then spent a serious chunk of time touting the healthcare products displayed on the tables in the lobby.
Bates explained that churches will need to get more into the healthcare business, because they have more to offer than the healthcare establishment. Churches have the courage to “tell the bums that they are bums” (I wondered what the bum lobby would think of this statement.
We have too much Blue Cross and Blue Shield. We depend too much on man and not enough on God. We’ve replaced God on the throne with government on the throne. We look to Jehovah government instead of God.
Bates announced that if anyone gets sick, it’s that person’s own fault. There are plenty of things you can do so that you don’t get sick, according to Bates. You can take regular doses of that colloidal silver I first learned about from the handouts. He announced that colloidal silver kills all bacteria. Someone in the back of the room then announced “Amen!” Gee, Larry, I wondered. Are you sure you want to kill all the bacteria in your body, including the beneficial bacteria that reside in your gut? He marched on, undeterred. Bates claims that he puts silver in his milk to keep it from spoiling. It will never spoil as long as you put silver in your carton of milk. He urged the audience to buy the colloidal silver generating kit, so they can make their own colloidal silver. He warned the audience that the FDA does not want people to know about the amazing healing powers of silver. The FDA doesn’t want the competition—it would put some big pharmaceutical companies out of business. In fact, the FDA is about to try to outlaw the use of silver as a medicine. Modern pharmaceuticals are “witchcraft.”
What else can you do to stay healthy? If you’ve got cancer, make sure you consider getting vitamin C injections. These have been phenomenally successful, according to Bates. This new knowledge about the healing powers of vitamin C reminded him that the Bible predicted “God’s plan of healing.” This kind of “new important knowledge” is another sign of “the last days.” We need to be the “salt” (disinfectant of the evil people) and the “light” (spreading wisdom). Bates warned that many believers are going to have to do God’s work on their own because churches “have been corrupted by world government.”
What would you do if you’re laid-off in the impending economic collapse? You need to get a trade. You need to do something with your hands, such as plumbing or electrical work. “The time will come when you have to barter your skills for someone else’s skills.” The End Times are apparently not going to be pretty.
The last section of the presentation was an indictment of US monetary policy. Bates pointed out that the United States now has $25 trillion in domestic debt which must be serviced, whereas the M2 money supply is only $7 trillion. This sets the stage for the economic End Times. The government can either go into default work or print fake money to dilute real wealth. He warns that the U.S. is busy printing lots of fake money. That’s what the recent $300 billion injection of “new money” was. It was used to allegedly stabilize the stock market. He warns that it would take a 7.1% added payroll tax to service our current debt, an amount that would break the backs of most families. Bates sees a massive restructuring of the social security system forthcoming, including raised taxes and reduced benefits, as well as means tests.
What can we do about the impending economic collapse? One thing is that we can make sure that no one takes away our guns, said Bates.
There will be no total economic collapse until there is total gun control. The tyrants don’t want to deal with an armed populace. The enemies of liberty hate your guns. The Second Amendment protects the First Amendment.
Here’s what else you can do, according to Bates. Elect people who will build fences to keep out the immigrants. Hone your communications skills, because the upcoming wars will be wars of world views. According to the Bible, “when you see the enemy, you’ll need to warn the city.”
As far as protecting your assets, Bates gives this advice: Stay away from “Loanership” assets, such as Money Market funds, T-bills and CD’s. They are “pieces of paper: IOU’s. Beware of real estate, in this age when the government is taxing it heavily and abusing eminent domain. Instead, load up on precious metals, such as gold and silver coins. This is especially important, given that the U.S. has long been off the gold standard, which has invited the dollar’s slide versus most currencies. He claims that you should not get gold or silver bullion because federal law gives the government the right to confiscate these in times of economic emergency.
Who’s going to buy your precious metal coins in the time of economic collapse? Bates is convincing to me when he answers that question with another question: “Who is going to buy your paper dollars?” He characterizes gold and silver as “money.” Everything else is only “credit.”
So Bates’ program includes both saving and eating silver! Where are you going to get all of those precious metals? From a reputable company like FAMC, of course. Bates tells you to buy precious coins and his company is happy to sell them to you. He told the crowd that precious metal coins are “real money” and that they will be exchangeable until the absolute end of time. Didn’t the Bible say that people will throw their gold and silver into the street? Absolutely, says Bates. But that will be toward the end, when we’ll see a “large scale transfer of wealth from the wicked to the righteous.” It’s all in the Bible, according to Bates. Up until those End Times, then, rely on precious metals, says Bates, citing Ezekiel 7:19 (“Precious metals very valuable until the time that God’s wrath is poured out”) and Haggai 2:6-9 (End time transfer of wealth using precious metals”).
Bates is not embarrassed about having money. “God doesn’t mind if you have nice things.” You should use and enjoy your money, he stresses. Have as much of it as you need, even if you use it to buy expensive houses, cars and vacations. No problem. It’s only the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. His literature cites Proverbs 28:20 (“Eager to get rich; will not go unpunished”), Ecclesiastes 2:26 (“One who pleases Him receives wealth”) and Genesis 2:11-12 (“God put gold in the earth for a reason”).
–
It’s hard to know how to sum up this Perilous Times Conference. The lessons taught by Bates are laced with radical conservative values, that is true. His characterizations of both Republicans and Democrats are cartoonish. His xenophobia and racism (especially toward women and people from the Middle East) are intense. His plan to capitalize upon the fears he drums up, both economic and religious, is predictable and obvious.
Bates has a ready and willing audience, because his targets are big and fat. Anyone with energy and creativity can vigorously hack away at pharmaceutical companies, drug companies, bankers, politicians and bureaucrats. If you can convince your audience that it might lose much of what it has worked for, you could readily stir up their deep fears about out-groups such as gays, women, atheists and immigrants.
Bates is playing a game that is played by many people who have some legitimate credentials. During the final portion of this conference Bates sometimes sounded like someone who was giving some reasonable economic advice based on sophisticated training. He sometimes spoke as person who relied on his training and experience in economics and banking. I am not an economist or a banker, and I have not read nearly enough to know the extent to which Bates is giving decent economic advice, though what I have read about United States fiscal policy also concerns me greatly. I’ve seen similar admonitions regarding the United States fiscal policy on “liberal” shows such as Bill Moyers. I think it is this part of the show that gives Bates the foot in the door with his audience.
Nonetheless, it is a standard trick to parlay one’s legitimate credentials far beyond the realm of one’s expertise. When Bates talks with ultra-assurance of the alleged Second Coming of Christ or when he touts the medical quackery he is so happy to peddle, he looks both naïve and devious. Shame on his audience members, though, if they really step up to buy that little bottle of fuel additive that will allegedly make their humongous SUVs get 50% better gas mileage. Shame on the people who think that the FDA is trying to outlaw silver potions because drinkable silver is so incredibly good that it would put pharmaceutical companies out of business. Shame on people who trust people who sell snake oil.
I couldn’t help but conclude that there is much in common among the sorts of people that listen to Bates and the sorts of people with whom I more commonly associate. We are all worried about our corrupt government, our poisoned food and water, our shortsighted fiscal policies, our many failing schools, our own deaths, about numerous people illegally pouring over our borders, about the many people who are addicted to drugs and alcohol and about a media with an agenda secretly dictated by those who hold disproportionate power. Many Believers and non-Believers are downright suspicious of organized religions. We differ profoundly, however, in the ways in which we would address these threats. What Bates offers is a bomb-shelter mentality. He relentlessly warns his audience of the need to hunker down and protect one’s own and let everyone else be damned.
As I left Perilous Times Conference, I wondered whether it would be an impossible task to convince the people in that audience to put down their Bibles and roll up their sleeves when they discuss politics. I wondered whether these people would ever be willing to open their minds to diverse ideas from people who might look and act differently than they do. I wondered whether Bates’ fans would ever be willing to look at their own cherished ideas as skeptically as they look at the ideas of others. I wondered whether they would ever be capable of pretending, even for a moment, that they were not under attack by all of those people of the world who they don’t know well. I wondered whether they could ever be convinced to consider that strangers are, for the most part, people with hopes, dreams and fears much like their own.
After mega-doses of Larry Bates, is it even possible for people to consider that there is a vast commonality all people share and that this could really be a starting point for a functional world view, one that is not based on paranoia?
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Category: American Culture, Bigotry, Civil Rights, Economy, Health, Medicine, Politics, Religion, The Middle East, War
I’ve only rarely removed comments. Last night we had technical issues, and I placed about 5 test comments, which I removed. Sometimes, people post the same comment several times because they don’t understand that they are subject to approval. I delete all but one of the duplicates. On two occasions, we’ve had big technical issues that caused us to lose a days’ worth of comments.
I’m proud to say that I approve almost everything except spam. I’ve seen some stats that indicated that I’ve approved more than 99% of the comments being submitted that were not spam. The reasons why I wouldn’t approve comments are set forth in the “Comment and Email Policies.” http://dangerousintersection.org/comment-and-email-policies/ The main reason I would not approve a non-spam comment is that it was completely off-topic, or that the comment-maker was not interested in engaging in civil discussion.
If you submit any non-spam comment that was did not show up in the site, I invite you to write me. Again, there are VERY few of you.
Mr Tiedemann wrote a fantastic comment in response to one of my comments. It is a shame no one is able to view it. At least, I was able to.
Samatha,
I can vouch for the fact that Erich rarely removes comments. His guidelines are minimal, pretty simple and encourage open discourse among the bloggers, including those with differing opinions. The idea is that we can learn from each other, become part of a virtual community, or neighborhood, if you will, and provide a place for civil discourse of the topics offered.
BTW, it lost one of my comments, too. It might even lose this one.
Samantha: I didn’t knowingly remove any of Mark’s comments. Give me a couple of key words from the comment you’re looking for and I’ll search for it.
Here’s a caveat: We switched to new hosting equipment twice in the past week, and you now have me concerned that there might have been some sort of technical glitch. Again, send me a few key word from the comment that you can no longer find, and I’ll search for it myself. If you’d like, write me directly at erichvieth@gmail.com and we can discuss in more detail. I certainly hope we haven’t lost any comments. I currently see 319 comments on this post, quite a few of them between you and Mark Tiedemann.
Samantha asked “Why do you remove comments” The blogs take yet another turn and an unexpected twist yesterday. It is really easy to say something like the files got deleted by an unexpected server issue. Do you really think we, as bloggers, should believe that that was the fate of those two excellent blogs by Mark Tiedemann and by Samantha? Isn’t it ironic that the writers that had opposing views to Samantha and Samantha’s husband had many reasons why they did not believe the validity of the bible and the integrity of the disciples to invent a story to push forth an agenda. I am starting to question the sincerity, and the integrity of the motives behind this episode of the removed comments. Were they removed because Mark Tiedmann crossed the line because of his heart felt statements? Mark Tiedemann, does this bother you at all that your freedom of speech was violated at all? For years we have been hearing that remarks from the left have been omitted and voices are not heard from the Atheists and the minority’s opinion are snuffed out. This is a first for me seeing that a man like Mark and his comments would be hidden from the public to read. This reminds me what goes on in all the great scandals of our time. The question to ask now is: What is the truth. Where does truth come from. Can we even believe anymore what comes from this web site? I am sure of one truth, that I can walk away from this web site today is that we live in a fallen world and it is corrupt with half truths. Like the events that took place in the Garden of Eden, Eve blamed the serpent and Adam blamed eve. Now Erich Vieth blames the server. Jesus in the Bible says Love your neighbor as yourself. If we would obey that very command one would not lie because that lie can bring offense to a neighbor. The same goes for stealing. If we loved our neighbor like we should we would not steal from them. Who is our neighbor? Our neighbor is you and me and all who intersect through life with one another are neighbors. The list goes on various offenses that occur in this world. If we would only love our neighbor like our selves. It is not too late to do so. Of course we cannot do it on our own or by our merit. We need Jesus to changes us form the inside out to do so. have a great day Thank you for reading.
Erich-
Some of the comments did indeed disappear, although I didn’t notice if they were between Mark and Samantha. One of mine was lost in response to Devi on my egg-recall post. No big deal as far as I’m concerned, but Samantha’s husband thinks something nefarious is afoot.
Samantha’s husband: you mentioned Eden & the snake…I wonder, do you realize that in the Genesis story, the snake never lies, and God does?
Genesis 2:16-17 says
And then in Genesis 3 we have this:
So God says “If you eat, you will die”. The snake says, “No, you won’t die, but you will be like Gods, knowing good and evil.” Which was telling the truth?
Samantha’s Husband: I know that you don’t know me, but those who know me well (including Mark) know that I have know motive for trashing opposing opinions. I didn’t delete any comments except my test comments in the middle of a technical problem. If you’ve ever run a big website, you might be more sympathetic to the possibility of technical issues.
Brynn, you appear in my opinion, to be extremely bright. But your interpretation of Genesis Chapter 3 is incorrect. The serpent entices Eve and she eats and then Adam eats. Adam does die SPIRITUALLY and the decay process of the body also started. You leave out an important verse, which is 15. “And I will put enmity between thee and the women, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” (this is a foreshadow of Jesus). Also you left out verse 23. The whole thing should read like this: “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, LEST he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”. now verse 23 “Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken”. In other words, God drove them out of the Garden of Eden so that they WOULD NOT eat from the tree of life anymore and NOT live forever in the evil state.
I am not big on posting comments online because for the most part they do little good. That said, I have two thoughts to submit to you all here reading this article and the attached comments.
First, I notice something that has been bothering me for a long time, which is the use of the word “conservative.” Politically this word once meant one who favored remaining a monarchy. Meanwhile, liberal meant one who favored promoting individual liberty (Liberty, according to the 1828 Webster dictionary, means freedom of choice) by establishing a republic. After a while, conservative meant one who favored individual liberty while liberal meant one who favored social justice (which stands in opposition to individual liberty because, for example, to help the poor one must violate the liberty, the freedom of choice, of those who would not of their own volition choose to help the poor). Today, somehow the word conservative has come to mean one who favors the government legislating morality thereby taking away personal liberty, the freedom to choose right or wrong. Thus the argument between conservative and liberal is at this point in time an argument between no personal liberty and no personal liberty. So what word do the old-school liberals like me have to call our own? Libertarian? I hate that word. Regardless, please do not fall victim to the mistaken belief that Christians believe in taking away liberty. I personally have no problem with homosexuals, whether their actions are immoral or not is between them and their God as such actions do not harm others. In point of fact, where God Himself did not take their freewill to choose, their liberty to choose, then for Christians to attempt to do so is to take a power for themselves which God Himself refused to take. This sounds like hubris to me, which is the sin of pride, one of the seven deadly sins. Ironic, is it not, that the very “christians” who propose to legislate morality are themselves violating the Christian moral code. Thus the “christians” you complain about above do not truly follow Christianity.
SIDE NOTE: I am not in favor of homosexual marriage because I am not in favor of changing the meanings of words. Marriage historically meant one man with one woman together for life, for the purpose of raising children. I believe a culture should ever endeavor to draw more distinctions with language, not fewer. This means the culture of divorce is not marriage, and neither are a man and a man, nor a woman and a woman, nor a man and a woman who never intend to have children. All that said, I believe the law should not use the word marriage. New unemotional words must be developed to account for the new distinctions, and for use in the law, which is supposed to be “reason free from passion.” When I have talked about this with my homosexual friends, one of them joked about making up the word “garriage.”
A society where actions which do not cause harm to others are regulated solely because they are distasteful to someone is repulsive to me, and I will fight the conservative just as hard as I will fight the liberal, or anyone else who threatens personal liberty. My biggest question for both groups is, “why can’t you just leave other people alone?”
My second point, and one that is becoming increasingly important in today’s world, is the deceptive, if not outright fraudulent, misrepresentation of facts. I was earlier reading about “Arming America,” a book about the development of the so-called gun culture wherein the author apparently cited fictitious sources or grossly misrepresented actual sources. Such behavior should not be tolerated whether one agrees with the conclusion or not. Period. Several posters have made comments about treating people as equals. Well, is it truly treating another human being as an equal to be deceptive, or is it saying “I am smarter than you who are too stupid to realize I have duped you”? I personally believe the latter to be the case.
You may be wondering how my second point relates to this web page. Quite simple really, I followed several of the links above, which pointed me at an article written by Ebonmuse, who seems to be well thought of here. Unfortunately, I do not have time to double check all of that worthy’s bible quotations as this post has taken too much of my time already, but the one I did check was from the Gospel of Luke chapter 12 verses 46-47. Ebonmuse claimed this passage was condoning the beating of slaves, but if you would be so kind as to go and read the preceding verses, you will find this to be a blatant lie (assuming Ebonmuse did not skip reading the setup for the verses quoted). There is another example of this type in the comments above mine where verses which change the meaning were dropped. To engage in this type of behavior while being angry about how others treat their fellow human beings as inferiors seems to be to be either casting the first stone, or noticing the mote in your neighbor’s eye while ignoring the beam in your own. ;P
I had judged this site to be reasonable, until I found it promoting those as would engage in such deceit. Now I find it to be just another place with an axe to grind and no real care for other people. You all want to know how to fix America and the world? Start actually caring about the welfare of others and treating them as equals. Period. There is no other way. And it all starts in being careful of the little things, like not calling people stupid by tailoring information to support one’s point of view.
Erich Vieth says” I know that you don’t know me”
Erich and others that work hard behind the scene on this web site. I apologize for coming across so harsh after responses disappeared. I feel foolish now for thinking the worst happened to the responses and for thiking it was a left winged conspiracy. It was way over the top of me to insinuate such an accusation toward someone I do not know. You are right. I really have no idea what it takes to run such a popular blog sight with all the servers and intricate other applications. I just felt that people were misrepresented and their opinions did not matter. That act of investigation on you and your team’s part, shows me your true integrity along with the other people you mentioned. I work for a world wide company who always takes care of the customer first. This is what happened here. Thank you again and I hope you forgive my insults. I never blogged until a couple of days ago so this is all new to me. Keep up the good work.
Thank you
Samantha’s husband: Thank you for your note. I know it appeared odd to see comments disappear, given that you hadn’t spent much time here yet. I can assure you that it concerned me too. When things go awry, I do sometimes blame “hackers” until I figure out that there are innocent causes.
At this site, we really do try to be self-critical and invite criticism of others, too, which you can see by skimming through the thousands of comments. In fact the authors and readers are urged to challenge each other. I’ve had dozens of readers tell me that I’m going to hell, and I’ve printed quite a few of those comments. I’ve been criticized for being too conservative and for being too liberal. So I must be doing something right. I haven’t very often been accused of censoring people I disagree with, though, so I really do appreciate your most recent comment.
I do hope that you and Samantha continue to visit the site and weigh in with your comments. That will make this a better site than otherwise.
Samantha’s husband:
Thanks for your extremely kind comments. I understand the way that those verses are traditionally interpreted within the christian community, which is your interpretation. If you forget about the way you’ve been taught to understand them though, and just read the verses they way they stand, the traditional interpretation is quite a stretch.
Remember, there were two trees, the tree of life, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There was no prohibition on eating of the tree of life, only that Adam must not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Only by interpreting the death that God warns of as a spiritual death, or an eventual physical death, can he be made to be telling the truth. To me, that’s stretching the plain meaning of the text. God says, “if you eat this you will die, that very day.” Satan, the father of lies, says, “No, you won’t die, but you will have a knowledge of good and evil.” Which is exactly what happened, according to the text. God is upset that they now have the knowledge of good and evil, and kicks them out of the garden.
Satan, the evil god of Wikileaks.
Luke: you seem to be railing against the etymological evolution of words. To me, that is a little like Cnut trying to command the tides.
You are authoritatively proclaiming what seems to be a “No True Scotsman” defense of your particular definition of ‘conservative’ and ‘Christian’. ’nuff said.
You also rail against supposed ‘deceit’ by EbonMuse, and, by direct inference, every other poster at this site. Surely, such epic conflation can only be wrong in your eyes, since it goes so firmly against the strict semanticist’s stance supporting your first point.
You may disagree with EbonMuse’s interpretation and may indeed wish to indulge him in some scholarly debate to highlight his errors in so egregiously quote-mining passages in support of his theses. However, he merely indulges in the same scholarly tactics that are the foundation of all debate and argument: cherry-pick your precedents and build your case upon them.
The challenge for most Christian apologists is that the bible (and similar sources of dogma) is rife with inconsistency, and is therefore ripe for multiple, contradictory and opportunistic interpretation.
That you disagree with an interpretation not in keeping with your agenda is entirely unsurprising.
That you claim deceit in such interpretation is, unfortunately, all too common among those of your ilk.
Samantha,
Firstly, once in a while a technical glitch has occurred at this site and information is lost. This is not the first time, and I assure you it is not exclusively on this sort of subject. It happens. No conspiracy. Erich likes a lively discussion.
Secondly, you write:—”Where does truth come from. Can we even believe anymore what comes from this web site? I am sure of one truth, that I can walk away from this web site today is that we live in a fallen world and it is corrupt with half truths.”
It seems to mean you are talking yourself out of skepticism and critical analysis. Youa re sure of one truth. There is no “one truth” which is the difficult thing about this whole discourse. You see truth as one and the same with Fact and when certain Facts seem to contradict Truth, they must evidently be wrong. Truth, however, is a process—a continual encounter with and experience of recognition. Facts bolster truth, but they are not the same thing. (Which actually makes Pilate’s little exchange with Jesus philosophically fascinating, especially given the response, but anyway…)
To imagine that a manmade artifact—like the Bible— could possibly encompass the possibilities latent in a concept like “God” is absurd. And rather pointless. What you’re reading there is a story—or, more precisely, a set of stories—the purpose of which is give examples of encounters with a phenomenon that is by definition indescribable and also to present the history of a specific culture and how it responded to those encounters. Some of the history is accurate, some of it is bent through a political lens, some of it (parables) is fiction. The theme overlying the whole thing is a conceptual construct offering a view of what might be at work.
It does not contain the thing it attempts to convey.
Any halfway serious study of the universe would lead one quite quickly to a view that the idea of a god which could be in any way involved with the petty problems, soap operas, and clannish disputes and wars described in the books of the Bible would be the equivalent of a couch potato addicted to bad television. A deity that could make all this, the way it is built, just couldn’t care.
How do I know this? Because it bores me and by definition I would be so much less than a god.
What the Bible is used for mostly has less to do with any revelation of what god might be than it has to do with hammering people into approved behavior patterns. The Bible is used to condemn all the stuff people don’t like about other people. It is a tool for control.
Control? Ask yourself why a god of quarks, muons, bosons, pulsars, and tachyons be in the least interested in how carbon-based organisms use their genitals. To me, this is ludicrous. All I hear when people start preaching the Bible at me is condemnation of behaviors that offend THEM. But they claim it offends god. Psych 101, this is projection. We can peruse Scripture and find whatever we want to condemn anything we care to.
Which is ironic. Since Jesus was supposedly all about tolerance, about not judging, about treating each other for how we are.
It is not good thinking to take the examples we offer and then say, “well, fine, there’s that, but what else do you have?” when you yourself claim to rely entirely on one document and seem unwilling to look at it critically. Bart Ehrman is not the only one. There are many others—he has just managed to write for a general audience. Get a couple of his books and look at his references and you’ll find the rest.
But I—and others—have already done this work on our own. We’re willing to offer examples and point directions, but you need to go look for yourself and do so with an open mind.
But my reading of the passage I quoted above suggests that you aren’t willing to do that and you’re just looking for excuses to shoot it all down.
That’s arguing in bad faith.
Mark:
I’m cross-posting this comment in the Bart Ehrman post, in that it is quite relevant there (I’m leaving it here too).
Erich, One more thing, who better to critique the critique than yourself, having read the books. You can state whether it is a reasonable critique or if he is misrepresenting or misquoting Bart Ehrman’s books.