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	<title>Comments on: We can’t even sing anymore</title>
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	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Leslie Sanazaro Santi: an upbeat profile of a songwriter and working musician &#124; Dangerous Intersection</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-32925</link>
		<dc:creator>Leslie Sanazaro Santi: an upbeat profile of a songwriter and working musician &#124; Dangerous Intersection</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 00:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-32925</guid>
		<description>[...] I was delighted that Leslie turned out to be such an open book, but that she was also realistic about the things she wants to improve.  Despite her years of survival in what is too often a cut-throat industry, her entire interview was upbeat without any hint of cynicism&#8211;such a change of pace from so much of what we read and hear these days.  Leslie firmly believes that we all have music inside of us, and that all of us can use it to communicate out ideas.  This is an idea to which I can relate. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I was delighted that Leslie turned out to be such an open book, but that she was also realistic about the things she wants to improve.  Despite her years of survival in what is too often a cut-throat industry, her entire interview was upbeat without any hint of cynicism&#8211;such a change of pace from so much of what we read and hear these days.  Leslie firmly believes that we all have music inside of us, and that all of us can use it to communicate out ideas.  This is an idea to which I can relate. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Boslaugh</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-9440</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Boslaugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-9440</guid>
		<description>OK, Erika, you just answered a major question for me. People whose only experience of "ordinary" people making music comes through the tv will think there are no such people, or that they should be made fun of. People who are actually making their own music are not watching American Idol and know that what is called "Reality" on tv is far from it. 

Oddly enough, I know people who love watching the Reality shows and making fun of  the people who appear on them. So I guess the networks have tapped into a basic human source of pleasure, which is feeling superior to other people. Can't blame them: they're a for-profit business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Erika, you just answered a major question for me. People whose only experience of &#8220;ordinary&#8221; people making music comes through the tv will think there are no such people, or that they should be made fun of. People who are actually making their own music are not watching American Idol and know that what is called &#8220;Reality&#8221; on tv is far from it. </p>
<p>Oddly enough, I know people who love watching the Reality shows and making fun of  the people who appear on them. So I guess the networks have tapped into a basic human source of pleasure, which is feeling superior to other people. Can&#8217;t blame them: they&#8217;re a for-profit business.</p>
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		<title>By: Erika Price</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-9396</link>
		<dc:creator>Erika Price</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 18:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-9396</guid>
		<description>When we do see "normal" people singing, dancing, or involved in physical activity, we usually see them in the frame of the reality tv show. And how does such "reality" tv portray the common person? People with average or mediocre abilities become mocked relentlessly on whatever incarnation of &lt;i&gt;American Idol&lt;/i&gt; the networks have on at the moment. I think such portrayals send a clear message to the majority of the public: you have no place dancing, or singing, or displaying any of your unimpressive "talents";  you should instead sit in your cubicle and consume. Since so many of us feel unfit to display our own abilities, we must devote our lives to watching the performances of others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When we do see &#8220;normal&#8221; people singing, dancing, or involved in physical activity, we usually see them in the frame of the reality tv show. And how does such &#8220;reality&#8221; tv portray the common person? People with average or mediocre abilities become mocked relentlessly on whatever incarnation of <i>American Idol</i> the networks have on at the moment. I think such portrayals send a clear message to the majority of the public: you have no place dancing, or singing, or displaying any of your unimpressive &#8220;talents&#8221;;  you should instead sit in your cubicle and consume. Since so many of us feel unfit to display our own abilities, we must devote our lives to watching the performances of others.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Rayl</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-9392</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Rayl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jan 2007 14:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-9392</guid>
		<description>The ideas and basic story in Slaugfhterhouse Five are terrific.  I personally can't abide Vonnegut's writing, though.  He made a conscious decision long ago to write at the level of his audience, which at that time he somehow determined to be fifth grade.  I resent the tone and therefore have a real problem with him  (For a contract, see his very first novel, Player Piano, wherein he shows he can write for adults.)

The Cat Who Walked Through Walls was one of the most frustrating of Heinlein's novels.  For me, at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ideas and basic story in Slaugfhterhouse Five are terrific.  I personally can&#8217;t abide Vonnegut&#8217;s writing, though.  He made a conscious decision long ago to write at the level of his audience, which at that time he somehow determined to be fifth grade.  I resent the tone and therefore have a real problem with him  (For a contract, see his very first novel, Player Piano, wherein he shows he can write for adults.)</p>
<p>The Cat Who Walked Through Walls was one of the most frustrating of Heinlein&#8217;s novels.  For me, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: The Blogger Formerly Known As Scholar</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-9383</link>
		<dc:creator>The Blogger Formerly Known As Scholar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 08:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-9383</guid>
		<description>At the risk of being too bloggy tonight, here is a link to what Vonnegut calls the "greatest short story". I disagree, but it's still damn good, and ended up affecting me more than I could have predicted but less than I had hoped (try and figure that logic out).  Click &lt;a href="http://eserver.org/fiction/occurrence-at-owl-creek.html"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

For Christmas I received the book "The Cat That Walks Through Walls" by Heinlein. I ended up buying the James Morrow book "The Last Witchunter" for my mom, and "The God Delusion" by Dawkins for my dad. Really I want my mom to read the God Delusion but I didn't want to seem to pushy, and I know she will read it anyway since I gave it to my dad. I look forward to reading all three books. Has anybody here read "Slaugherhouse Five" by Vonnegut? The internet buzz on it seems good, but I would like more input before I read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of being too bloggy tonight, here is a link to what Vonnegut calls the &#8220;greatest short story&#8221;. I disagree, but it&#8217;s still damn good, and ended up affecting me more than I could have predicted but less than I had hoped (try and figure that logic out).  Click <a href="http://eserver.org/fiction/occurrence-at-owl-creek.html">here</a>.</p>
<p>For Christmas I received the book &#8220;The Cat That Walks Through Walls&#8221; by Heinlein. I ended up buying the James Morrow book &#8220;The Last Witchunter&#8221; for my mom, and &#8220;The God Delusion&#8221; by Dawkins for my dad. Really I want my mom to read the God Delusion but I didn&#8217;t want to seem to pushy, and I know she will read it anyway since I gave it to my dad. I look forward to reading all three books. Has anybody here read &#8220;Slaugherhouse Five&#8221; by Vonnegut? The internet buzz on it seems good, but I would like more input before I read it.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Boslaugh</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-9380</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Boslaugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 21:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-9380</guid>
		<description>I think this discussion may be missing a crucial point. I know tons of amateur musicians and both my husband and myself belong in that category (we do occasionally get paid for playing, but it's not our primary income). But I bet you have never heard of us, because we are known primarily in the circle of people we perform with. And that's fine: we'd rather spend an evening making music than listening to someone else do it. 

I don't see the point in slagging people who do make money through music or baseball or whatever: they're really in a different field of endeavor than us parking lot pickers and weekend warriors. McDonald's must be the greatest restaurant in the world if you judge by the number of meals they have served, but no one confuses their product with that produced by a local restaurant. 

I do wonder why so many people seem to prefer to watch other people do stuff, rather than doing it themselves. It is a choice, although it may be made out of laziness or gnorance of the alternatives. St. Louis, MO, for instance, has a very lively amateur musical scene and there are all kinds of opportunities to get involved even at a beginning level. To take another example, my office partner plays in some kind of amateur sports more or less year-round, not because he's the greatest athlete but because he enjoys it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this discussion may be missing a crucial point. I know tons of amateur musicians and both my husband and myself belong in that category (we do occasionally get paid for playing, but it&#8217;s not our primary income). But I bet you have never heard of us, because we are known primarily in the circle of people we perform with. And that&#8217;s fine: we&#8217;d rather spend an evening making music than listening to someone else do it. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see the point in slagging people who do make money through music or baseball or whatever: they&#8217;re really in a different field of endeavor than us parking lot pickers and weekend warriors. McDonald&#8217;s must be the greatest restaurant in the world if you judge by the number of meals they have served, but no one confuses their product with that produced by a local restaurant. </p>
<p>I do wonder why so many people seem to prefer to watch other people do stuff, rather than doing it themselves. It is a choice, although it may be made out of laziness or gnorance of the alternatives. St. Louis, MO, for instance, has a very lively amateur musical scene and there are all kinds of opportunities to get involved even at a beginning level. To take another example, my office partner plays in some kind of amateur sports more or less year-round, not because he&#8217;s the greatest athlete but because he enjoys it.</p>
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		<title>By: Taco van Ieperen</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-9379</link>
		<dc:creator>Taco van Ieperen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 21:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-9379</guid>
		<description>I've noticed much the same thing.  It's terrible when you think about it.  Sport, and art, and music are ways of enjoying and expressing ourselves, and instead we outsource it all to other people.  We are hiring people to have fun and express our personalities.

Interestingly enough there are places where this tendancy is overcome on a wide scale.  For instance, at the Burning Man festival lots of people do some form of art or other self-expression (and nobody is paid for it).  The result is often much more interesting then professional work, and everyone can participate if they choose to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve noticed much the same thing.  It&#8217;s terrible when you think about it.  Sport, and art, and music are ways of enjoying and expressing ourselves, and instead we outsource it all to other people.  We are hiring people to have fun and express our personalities.</p>
<p>Interestingly enough there are places where this tendancy is overcome on a wide scale.  For instance, at the Burning Man festival lots of people do some form of art or other self-expression (and nobody is paid for it).  The result is often much more interesting then professional work, and everyone can participate if they choose to.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-9377</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-9377</guid>
		<description>A counterpoint from someone in the "expert" realm - within my friends, I'm notoriusly picky and enthusiastic about music, demanding the finest for my listening material.  

I'm from a musical family - my sister is a professional classical musician and I am classically trained in theory and multiple instruments as well.  I have perfect pictch, so I can tell when someone is off pitch the same way that most people could tell if the red light in a stop light was pink.  I have also worked in the music industry for a dozen years.  The vast majority of the musicians I work with are not massively popular in pop music, but some of them are recognised as being at the top of the game in their small sections and there's an assortment of Grammy winners and multi-platinum sellers in them.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm nowhere near the top of anything in the "expert" world, but I know and in some cases have worked with the best.

Because of this, my friends tend to think that I look down on them musically and don't want to hear their amateur efforts, which is far from the truth.  Just because I enjoy gourmet food doesn't mean I can't enjoy a good basic hamburger as well.  Do I love hearing the best?  Of course.  But I'm involved with music because I love music, not because I love perfection.  I've loved it when significant others have sung to me, regardless of talent level.  Some of my earliest memories are of my mother singing me to sleep.  Her talent level didn't matter, it was the love she was expressing through music that counted.

I judge people's ability relative to the level that they should be at.  A band may be great for a talent night performance but a poor choice as the opening act at an arena performance.  There's no shame in not being the best at something.  You don't criticize your 8 year old nephew playing Little League baseball because he can't keep up with a professional player.  It's true that your talent level will affect how many people will chose to spend time watching or listening to you, but that's just the way it is.

But I will never tell something they shouldn't sing, and if you want to sing, there's always a willing audience of one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A counterpoint from someone in the &#8220;expert&#8221; realm - within my friends, I&#8217;m notoriusly picky and enthusiastic about music, demanding the finest for my listening material.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m from a musical family - my sister is a professional classical musician and I am classically trained in theory and multiple instruments as well.  I have perfect pictch, so I can tell when someone is off pitch the same way that most people could tell if the red light in a stop light was pink.  I have also worked in the music industry for a dozen years.  The vast majority of the musicians I work with are not massively popular in pop music, but some of them are recognised as being at the top of the game in their small sections and there&#8217;s an assortment of Grammy winners and multi-platinum sellers in them.</p>
<p>In the grand scheme of things, I&#8217;m nowhere near the top of anything in the &#8220;expert&#8221; world, but I know and in some cases have worked with the best.</p>
<p>Because of this, my friends tend to think that I look down on them musically and don&#8217;t want to hear their amateur efforts, which is far from the truth.  Just because I enjoy gourmet food doesn&#8217;t mean I can&#8217;t enjoy a good basic hamburger as well.  Do I love hearing the best?  Of course.  But I&#8217;m involved with music because I love music, not because I love perfection.  I&#8217;ve loved it when significant others have sung to me, regardless of talent level.  Some of my earliest memories are of my mother singing me to sleep.  Her talent level didn&#8217;t matter, it was the love she was expressing through music that counted.</p>
<p>I judge people&#8217;s ability relative to the level that they should be at.  A band may be great for a talent night performance but a poor choice as the opening act at an arena performance.  There&#8217;s no shame in not being the best at something.  You don&#8217;t criticize your 8 year old nephew playing Little League baseball because he can&#8217;t keep up with a professional player.  It&#8217;s true that your talent level will affect how many people will chose to spend time watching or listening to you, but that&#8217;s just the way it is.</p>
<p>But I will never tell something they shouldn&#8217;t sing, and if you want to sing, there&#8217;s always a willing audience of one.</p>
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		<title>By: hogiemo</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-9376</link>
		<dc:creator>hogiemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 16:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-9376</guid>
		<description>I blame the Republicans. Our mass culture has been exploited and dumbed down to 15-30 second soundbites from Karl Rove and his ilk. Just witness now how the "decider" has become the "consulter", "hearing from many opinions". Panels of experts, corporate consultants to government on energy issues, or talking to anyone you claim is an expert gives you the insulation from having to be accountable for failings or mistakes. Oooops, I forgot, W doesn't make mistakes, his "experts" do.

Next, I blame us. We've allowed them to get away with it. Until last November, that is. We need to reconnect with each other and cultivate communities where we support the arts, science and increased public participation. I see this site as that and the exchanges here a positive thing.

As for stories, music and dance, I have my kids and spouse (who has "found" her musical voice after years of believing she couldn't sing)! We'll work on the rest of the world, soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I blame the Republicans. Our mass culture has been exploited and dumbed down to 15-30 second soundbites from Karl Rove and his ilk. Just witness now how the &#8220;decider&#8221; has become the &#8220;consulter&#8221;, &#8220;hearing from many opinions&#8221;. Panels of experts, corporate consultants to government on energy issues, or talking to anyone you claim is an expert gives you the insulation from having to be accountable for failings or mistakes. Oooops, I forgot, W doesn&#8217;t make mistakes, his &#8220;experts&#8221; do.</p>
<p>Next, I blame us. We&#8217;ve allowed them to get away with it. Until last November, that is. We need to reconnect with each other and cultivate communities where we support the arts, science and increased public participation. I see this site as that and the exchanges here a positive thing.</p>
<p>As for stories, music and dance, I have my kids and spouse (who has &#8220;found&#8221; her musical voice after years of believing she couldn&#8217;t sing)! We&#8217;ll work on the rest of the world, soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Hutten</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2007/01/05/we-can%e2%80%99t-even-sing-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-9375</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Hutten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=893#comment-9375</guid>
		<description>"You know, we just buy music now. We don't make it any more. And that goes for just about everything. I think it's so important that people develop and subscribe to and have confidence in their own ability to make music, however rough it is."
- Tom Waits

"Everybody should do some music. Every creature and every material has the music inside, it's its energy; music is actually very easy, there's nothing to it, and everybody should search for his own."
- Erkan Oğur

"Music is music. Bach or the fat guy playing 'oh Susanna' on his armpit at the block party every July fourth, it's all the same basic language."
- Pat Costello</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You know, we just buy music now. We don&#8217;t make it any more. And that goes for just about everything. I think it&#8217;s so important that people develop and subscribe to and have confidence in their own ability to make music, however rough it is.&#8221;<br />
- Tom Waits</p>
<p>&#8220;Everybody should do some music. Every creature and every material has the music inside, it&#8217;s its energy; music is actually very easy, there&#8217;s nothing to it, and everybody should search for his own.&#8221;<br />
- Erkan Oğur</p>
<p>&#8220;Music is music. Bach or the fat guy playing &#8216;oh Susanna&#8217; on his armpit at the block party every July fourth, it&#8217;s all the same basic language.&#8221;<br />
- Pat Costello</p>
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