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	<title>Comments on: Creationism: another casualty of Innumeracy</title>
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	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ripped off because we don't do well at math &#124; Dangerous Intersection</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-61980</link>
		<dc:creator>Ripped off because we don't do well at math &#124; Dangerous Intersection</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-61980</guid>
		<description>[...] seem to have. Think of the environment, or energy, national budget, climate, health care, evolution being taught in public schools, space exploration, public health issues (e.g., the importance of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] seem to have. Think of the environment, or energy, national budget, climate, health care, evolution being taught in public schools, space exploration, public health issues (e.g., the importance of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-58200</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 01:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-58200</guid>
		<description>The power and elegance of evolution is lost on those who are not comfortable with numbers, as suggested in Richard Dawkins' article titled "The Illusion of Design," found in the November 2005 issue of Natural History Magazine:  

"The achievement of nonrandom natural selection is to tame chance. By smearing out the luck, breaking down the improbability into a large number of small steps--each one somewhat improbable but not ridiculously so--natural selection ratchets up the improbability.  As the generations unfold, ratcheting take the cumulative improbability up to levels that--in the absence of the ratcheting --would exceed all sensible credence.  Many people don't understand such nonrandom cumulative ratcheting.  They think natural selection is a theory of chance, so no wonder they don't believe it!"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The power and elegance of evolution is lost on those who are not comfortable with numbers, as suggested in Richard Dawkins&#8217; article titled &#8220;The Illusion of Design,&#8221; found in the November 2005 issue of Natural History Magazine:  </p>
<p>&#8220;The achievement of nonrandom natural selection is to tame chance. By smearing out the luck, breaking down the improbability into a large number of small steps&#8211;each one somewhat improbable but not ridiculously so&#8211;natural selection ratchets up the improbability.  As the generations unfold, ratcheting take the cumulative improbability up to levels that&#8211;in the absence of the ratcheting &#8211;would exceed all sensible credence.  Many people don&#8217;t understand such nonrandom cumulative ratcheting.  They think natural selection is a theory of chance, so no wonder they don&#8217;t believe it!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Why bailouts might not be long-term solutions for distressed homeowners &#124; Dangerous Intersection</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-58155</link>
		<dc:creator>Why bailouts might not be long-term solutions for distressed homeowners &#124; Dangerous Intersection</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 23:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-58155</guid>
		<description>[...] Other borrowers were clearly irresponsible.  Most of of the borrowers suffer from a condition mathematician John Paulos calls “innumeracy”: the “inability to deal comfortably with the fundamental notions of number and chance.”  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Other borrowers were clearly irresponsible.  Most of of the borrowers suffer from a condition mathematician John Paulos calls “innumeracy”: the “inability to deal comfortably with the fundamental notions of number and chance.”  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-15938</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 04:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-15938</guid>
		<description>Here's a video of John Paulos discussing the role of probability in religious belief systems.  http://thesciencenetwork.org/BeyondBelief2/watch/paulos.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a video of John Paulos discussing the role of probability in religious belief systems.  <a href="http://thesciencenetwork.org/BeyondBelief2/watch/paulos.php" rel="nofollow">http://thesciencenetwork.org/BeyondBelief2/watch/paulos.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: grumpypilgrim</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-12096</link>
		<dc:creator>grumpypilgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 14:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-12096</guid>
		<description>Going back to Dennett's "Library of Babel," and its perfect, and many imperfect, copies of "Moby Dick," there is another point we could make: the sequence of symbols (letters, spaces, punctuation marks, etc.) that we English-speakers define as making the "perfect" copy only has that status because of the particular set of syntax rules that we use today in the English language. It is "perfect" because it follows the syntax rules for modern English, enabling us to translate the symbols into meaningful thoughts. Apply a different set of syntax rules (e.g., the syntax rules for some other language or even for "Old English") and some other version of the book would become the perfect copy and our copy would become another of the many imperfect ones.

Now, apply this same thought process to evolution. We look at our planet, apply the syntax rules for life as we know it today, and, behold, we find "perfect" strings of DNA that correspond to today's life forms. However, what we don't know is how many other strings of DNA might be "perfect" if we were to merely apply different syntax rules for life -- syntax rules that might exist on other planets or that might have existed on our own planet in the past (including in places we have not yet looked, or in places that no longer exist because of geologic changes). By "syntax rules for life," I mean things such as the climate, the atmospheric composition, the availability of food, the existence of predators, etc. Clearly, the fact that our planet, millions of years ago, supported many life forms that it does not support today indicates that the "syntax rules for life" on our planet have changed over time, so this idea has validity.

Why do I mention it? Because when creationists talk about the "improbability" of life as we see it today on our planet, they are applying a very narrow set of syntax rules (i.e., the ones that work for the species we see today), yet we know for a fact that these rules are too narrow to account for the full history of life on our planet. This is part of the reason why we must call their argument a straw man.

Why is it important for us to do so? Because at the moment when "life" first began on our planet -- i.e., the moment when some molecule could perform metabolism, reproduction and adaptation -- our planet's climate and atmosphere were different (perhaps more conducive to the creation of life), there was no competition for "food," and there were no predators around to destroy it, so its odds of survival would probably have been a lot higher than they might be today. In other words, perhaps just about any "syntax rule" would have enabled that first life form to be a "perfect copy" of something, simply because many syntax rules would have been possible. Going back to the "Library of Babel," consider a book that has only one letter in it: for example, the letter "I." Such a book would be relatively easy to generate "at random" from even a large collection of letters and it would be meaningful in many languages, because it would satisfy many different "syntax rules." Likewise, perhaps the appearance of life on our planet was both relatively easy to generate "at random" from even a large collection of molecules and also had available to it a relatively wide range of viable "syntax rules for life" (i.e., more than exist today). In other words, perhaps life on our planet was not as improbable as the creationists would want us to believe. Give a million chimps a million typewriters, and a million years to write a book, and likely one of them would eventually type the letter that means something in some language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going back to Dennett&#8217;s &#8220;Library of Babel,&#8221; and its perfect, and many imperfect, copies of &#8220;Moby Dick,&#8221; there is another point we could make: the sequence of symbols (letters, spaces, punctuation marks, etc.) that we English-speakers define as making the &#8220;perfect&#8221; copy only has that status because of the particular set of syntax rules that we use today in the English language. It is &#8220;perfect&#8221; because it follows the syntax rules for modern English, enabling us to translate the symbols into meaningful thoughts. Apply a different set of syntax rules (e.g., the syntax rules for some other language or even for &#8220;Old English&#8221;) and some other version of the book would become the perfect copy and our copy would become another of the many imperfect ones.</p>
<p>Now, apply this same thought process to evolution. We look at our planet, apply the syntax rules for life as we know it today, and, behold, we find &#8220;perfect&#8221; strings of DNA that correspond to today&#8217;s life forms. However, what we don&#8217;t know is how many other strings of DNA might be &#8220;perfect&#8221; if we were to merely apply different syntax rules for life &#8212; syntax rules that might exist on other planets or that might have existed on our own planet in the past (including in places we have not yet looked, or in places that no longer exist because of geologic changes). By &#8220;syntax rules for life,&#8221; I mean things such as the climate, the atmospheric composition, the availability of food, the existence of predators, etc. Clearly, the fact that our planet, millions of years ago, supported many life forms that it does not support today indicates that the &#8220;syntax rules for life&#8221; on our planet have changed over time, so this idea has validity.</p>
<p>Why do I mention it? Because when creationists talk about the &#8220;improbability&#8221; of life as we see it today on our planet, they are applying a very narrow set of syntax rules (i.e., the ones that work for the species we see today), yet we know for a fact that these rules are too narrow to account for the full history of life on our planet. This is part of the reason why we must call their argument a straw man.</p>
<p>Why is it important for us to do so? Because at the moment when &#8220;life&#8221; first began on our planet &#8212; i.e., the moment when some molecule could perform metabolism, reproduction and adaptation &#8212; our planet&#8217;s climate and atmosphere were different (perhaps more conducive to the creation of life), there was no competition for &#8220;food,&#8221; and there were no predators around to destroy it, so its odds of survival would probably have been a lot higher than they might be today. In other words, perhaps just about any &#8220;syntax rule&#8221; would have enabled that first life form to be a &#8220;perfect copy&#8221; of something, simply because many syntax rules would have been possible. Going back to the &#8220;Library of Babel,&#8221; consider a book that has only one letter in it: for example, the letter &#8220;I.&#8221; Such a book would be relatively easy to generate &#8220;at random&#8221; from even a large collection of letters and it would be meaningful in many languages, because it would satisfy many different &#8220;syntax rules.&#8221; Likewise, perhaps the appearance of life on our planet was both relatively easy to generate &#8220;at random&#8221; from even a large collection of molecules and also had available to it a relatively wide range of viable &#8220;syntax rules for life&#8221; (i.e., more than exist today). In other words, perhaps life on our planet was not as improbable as the creationists would want us to believe. Give a million chimps a million typewriters, and a million years to write a book, and likely one of them would eventually type the letter that means something in some language.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-9180</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 05:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-9180</guid>
		<description>Paulos himself wrote on probability and Creationists.  It's an article that overlaps a bit with this post.  See:  http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2384584&amp;page=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paulos himself wrote on probability and Creationists.  It&#8217;s an article that overlaps a bit with this post.  See:  <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2384584&#038;page=1" rel="nofollow">http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2384584&#038;page=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-9179</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 05:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-9179</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Marc. I took your advice and posted this on Richard Dawkins' site.  We'll see if how many people notice and react to the post.  After all, there is a LOT going on over there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Marc. I took your advice and posted this on Richard Dawkins&#8217; site.  We&#8217;ll see if how many people notice and react to the post.  After all, there is a LOT going on over there.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Klarmann</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-9178</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Klarmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 03:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-9178</guid>
		<description>Let's remember the Young Earth hypothesis that underlies most of the Creationist arguments I've seen. Given that there were only 6 days for all evolutionary change, it &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; pretty unlikely.
If we choose to believe in the measurements of geology, tectonics, microbiology, astronomy, radiology, and all the other disciplines that clock the Earth as several thousand-million years old, chances do improve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s remember the Young Earth hypothesis that underlies most of the Creationist arguments I&#8217;ve seen. Given that there were only 6 days for all evolutionary change, it <i>is</i> pretty unlikely.<br />
If we choose to believe in the measurements of geology, tectonics, microbiology, astronomy, radiology, and all the other disciplines that clock the Earth as several thousand-million years old, chances do improve.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Holt</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-9175</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Holt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 02:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-9175</guid>
		<description>Please go to http://richarddawkins.net/forum/ and post this topic for discussion. I think it will generate a lot of interest there.

Cheers!
Marc Holt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please go to <a href="http://richarddawkins.net/forum/" rel="nofollow">http://richarddawkins.net/forum/</a> and post this topic for discussion. I think it will generate a lot of interest there.</p>
<p>Cheers!<br />
Marc Holt</p>
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		<title>By: grumpypilgrim</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/12/20/creationism-another-casualty-of-innumeracy/comment-page-1/#comment-9171</link>
		<dc:creator>grumpypilgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=848#comment-9171</guid>
		<description>First, let's distinguish between creation (not creationism) and evolution:  creation refers to whatever caused (reproductive) life to come into existence on our planet; evolution refers to what happens to that life from one generation to the next.

With this distinction in mind, let's focus on creation.  Did life arise on our planet because it was created by a supernatural being, or did it arise without such intervention?  Creationists argue that life is exceedingly unlikely to have arisen without supernatural intervention; therefore, they claim supernatural intervention must have been involved.

This argument is rooted in the belief that life is exceedingly unlikely to have arisen without supernatural intervention.  This is not necessarily a bad argument:  even evolutionists acknowledge that life has apparently only been created once in the 4-billion-year history of our planet.  

However, the argument misses some key points.  First, we don't know the minimum criteria for creating reproductive life.  For all we know, reproductive life might be very easy to create -- indeed, it might be sprouting up all over our universe -- and our planet might just be a relatively poor environment for life to arise in.  For all we know, our planet might not be unique in having life; it might be unique in having life that took such a long time to appear.  For all we know, life might appear on other planets in a matter of thousands or millions of years and, thus, not be as unlikely as the creationists claim.  Maybe life is very likely to occur "by accident" (without supernatural intervention) and only on our planet *appears* to be unlikely.

Second, we also don't know how frequently life is created on our planet.   Maybe life arises relatively often on our planet and we just don't realize it, because the new life forms are quickly destroyed by the life forms that are already here.  This isn't far-fetched:  existing life forms, having lived here for 4 billion years, would presumably be good at killing off invaders, especially some new life form that has never had to fight for its survival.     Maybe life has appeared on earth only once in 4 billion years simply because subsequent creations were quickly killed by the "natives."  For all we know, a new life form might have been created just this afternoon, without supernatural intervention, in my laundry hamper, but maybe it won't survive my next laundry day.  Maybe this is why the creation of life appears to be a rare event on our planet.

Third, with many billions of galaxies in our universe, and many billions of stars in each galaxy, and many billions of years of elapsed time, there are many opportunities for life to arise "by accident."  Maybe our planet was simply one of the lucky ones where life arose.  It is the same with, for example, state lotteries:  just because only one person in a hundred million wins, it doesn't mean supernatural intervention caused that person, against all odds, to win.  He was simply lucky.  It's like when someone survives an airplane crash:  regardless of the odds against their survival, it doesn't demonstrate supernatural intervention, it simply demonstrates that very small odds of survival, when combined with a relatively large number of airplane crashes, will occasionally produce a survivor.

Issues like these need to be kept in mind when the "improbability" of life arising on our planet is used to support the creationist argument for supernatural intervention.  We know so little about the actual odds, and about the other factors that impact the odds (e.g., the size of the universe of possible trials), that such arguments have little merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, let&#8217;s distinguish between creation (not creationism) and evolution:  creation refers to whatever caused (reproductive) life to come into existence on our planet; evolution refers to what happens to that life from one generation to the next.</p>
<p>With this distinction in mind, let&#8217;s focus on creation.  Did life arise on our planet because it was created by a supernatural being, or did it arise without such intervention?  Creationists argue that life is exceedingly unlikely to have arisen without supernatural intervention; therefore, they claim supernatural intervention must have been involved.</p>
<p>This argument is rooted in the belief that life is exceedingly unlikely to have arisen without supernatural intervention.  This is not necessarily a bad argument:  even evolutionists acknowledge that life has apparently only been created once in the 4-billion-year history of our planet.  </p>
<p>However, the argument misses some key points.  First, we don&#8217;t know the minimum criteria for creating reproductive life.  For all we know, reproductive life might be very easy to create &#8212; indeed, it might be sprouting up all over our universe &#8212; and our planet might just be a relatively poor environment for life to arise in.  For all we know, our planet might not be unique in having life; it might be unique in having life that took such a long time to appear.  For all we know, life might appear on other planets in a matter of thousands or millions of years and, thus, not be as unlikely as the creationists claim.  Maybe life is very likely to occur &#8220;by accident&#8221; (without supernatural intervention) and only on our planet *appears* to be unlikely.</p>
<p>Second, we also don&#8217;t know how frequently life is created on our planet.   Maybe life arises relatively often on our planet and we just don&#8217;t realize it, because the new life forms are quickly destroyed by the life forms that are already here.  This isn&#8217;t far-fetched:  existing life forms, having lived here for 4 billion years, would presumably be good at killing off invaders, especially some new life form that has never had to fight for its survival.     Maybe life has appeared on earth only once in 4 billion years simply because subsequent creations were quickly killed by the &#8220;natives.&#8221;  For all we know, a new life form might have been created just this afternoon, without supernatural intervention, in my laundry hamper, but maybe it won&#8217;t survive my next laundry day.  Maybe this is why the creation of life appears to be a rare event on our planet.</p>
<p>Third, with many billions of galaxies in our universe, and many billions of stars in each galaxy, and many billions of years of elapsed time, there are many opportunities for life to arise &#8220;by accident.&#8221;  Maybe our planet was simply one of the lucky ones where life arose.  It is the same with, for example, state lotteries:  just because only one person in a hundred million wins, it doesn&#8217;t mean supernatural intervention caused that person, against all odds, to win.  He was simply lucky.  It&#8217;s like when someone survives an airplane crash:  regardless of the odds against their survival, it doesn&#8217;t demonstrate supernatural intervention, it simply demonstrates that very small odds of survival, when combined with a relatively large number of airplane crashes, will occasionally produce a survivor.</p>
<p>Issues like these need to be kept in mind when the &#8220;improbability&#8221; of life arising on our planet is used to support the creationist argument for supernatural intervention.  We know so little about the actual odds, and about the other factors that impact the odds (e.g., the size of the universe of possible trials), that such arguments have little merit.</p>
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