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	<title>Comments on: Shopping for Jesus</title>
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	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 04:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Shopper trampled in the name of Jesus &#124; Dangerous Intersection</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/comment-page-1/#comment-30923</link>
		<dc:creator>Shopper trampled in the name of Jesus &#124; Dangerous Intersection</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 06:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=766#comment-30923</guid>
		<description>[...] it&#8217;s &#8220;Black Friday&#8221; again.  It&#8217;s time to check out the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it&#8217;s &#8220;Black Friday&#8221; again.  It&#8217;s time to check out the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/comment-page-1/#comment-10784</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=766#comment-10784</guid>
		<description>Here's a comment to this article from reddit.com:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Your commentary is what is absurd. Nobody is alleging that "buying expensive and unnecessary consumer goods honors Jesus Christ". Nobody. You are a rebel without a brain.

And why aren’t the churches working hard to teach their American flocks that the standard Christmas message (buy lots of things to honor Jesus) is utterly absurd?

It's absurd because you made it up. "Buying lots of things to honor Jesus" is not "the standard Christmas message". Never has been. What in the world are you talking about? Of course churches teach the true meaning of Christmas. Yes, there is a lot of gift buying going on, but I defy you to find anyone who thinks that "buying expensive and unnecessary consumer goods honors Jesus Christ". What a foolish premise!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Here's my reaction:

I dare--DARE--church leaders to stand up at the pulpit just before Thanksgiving and tell the flock to CUT IT OUT! Stop pouring money into Christmas dreck! The plastic lights, angels, excess toys, this materialistic tsunami that occurs every year. The failure to deliver this message squarely is a green light to shop for Jesus.  Whenever a parishoner comes up and tells a church leader that they've indulged in a needless senseless materialsitic orgy for Christmas, do you know what they get?  I've seen this countless times.  They get a smile and silence.  They don't hear a word that spending big money frivolously is poisoning their souls and pissing on the poor.

Church leaders from coast to coast know what drives the flock to celebrate Christmas and they dare not touch the third rail or the flock will run off to some other church where their consciences aren't pricked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a comment to this article from reddit.com:</p>
<blockquote><p>Your commentary is what is absurd. Nobody is alleging that &#8220;buying expensive and unnecessary consumer goods honors Jesus Christ&#8221;. Nobody. You are a rebel without a brain.</p>
<p>And why aren’t the churches working hard to teach their American flocks that the standard Christmas message (buy lots of things to honor Jesus) is utterly absurd?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s absurd because you made it up. &#8220;Buying lots of things to honor Jesus&#8221; is not &#8220;the standard Christmas message&#8221;. Never has been. What in the world are you talking about? Of course churches teach the true meaning of Christmas. Yes, there is a lot of gift buying going on, but I defy you to find anyone who thinks that &#8220;buying expensive and unnecessary consumer goods honors Jesus Christ&#8221;. What a foolish premise!</p></blockquote>
<p>Here&#8217;s my reaction:</p>
<p>I dare&#8211;DARE&#8211;church leaders to stand up at the pulpit just before Thanksgiving and tell the flock to CUT IT OUT! Stop pouring money into Christmas dreck! The plastic lights, angels, excess toys, this materialistic tsunami that occurs every year. The failure to deliver this message squarely is a green light to shop for Jesus.  Whenever a parishoner comes up and tells a church leader that they&#8217;ve indulged in a needless senseless materialsitic orgy for Christmas, do you know what they get?  I&#8217;ve seen this countless times.  They get a smile and silence.  They don&#8217;t hear a word that spending big money frivolously is poisoning their souls and pissing on the poor.</p>
<p>Church leaders from coast to coast know what drives the flock to celebrate Christmas and they dare not touch the third rail or the flock will run off to some other church where their consciences aren&#8217;t pricked.</p>
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		<title>By: grumpypilgrim</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/comment-page-1/#comment-8844</link>
		<dc:creator>grumpypilgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=766#comment-8844</guid>
		<description>Martian writes:  "Not to mention the fact that Jesus wasn’t born in December at all."

Is the actual birthday of Jesus known?  Emperor Aurelian chose December 25 to co-opt existing pagan festivals -- both longstanding winter solstice festivals and the "birthday of the invincible sun" celebrated by followers of the god Mithras (see http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa122397b.htm/).

According to the book, "Pagan Origins of Christmas," quoted on the above website, Mithras was a "sun-god, born of a virgin in a cave on December 25, and worshipped on Sunday, the day of the conquering sun...He died and was resurrected in order to become a messenger god, an intermediary between man and the good god of light, and the leader of the forces of righteousness against the dark forces of the god evil."

With so many obvious similarities between Mithras and Jesus, why does only Christianity exist today even though Mithraism was practiced for 1400 years before Jesus was born?  Perhaps because Mithraism did not permit women to participate, so it was far less inclusive and presumably less popular than Christianity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martian writes:  &#8220;Not to mention the fact that Jesus wasn’t born in December at all.&#8221;</p>
<p>Is the actual birthday of Jesus known?  Emperor Aurelian chose December 25 to co-opt existing pagan festivals &#8212; both longstanding winter solstice festivals and the &#8220;birthday of the invincible sun&#8221; celebrated by followers of the god Mithras (see <a href="http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa122397b.htm/" rel="nofollow">http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa122397b.htm/</a>).</p>
<p>According to the book, &#8220;Pagan Origins of Christmas,&#8221; quoted on the above website, Mithras was a &#8220;sun-god, born of a virgin in a cave on December 25, and worshipped on Sunday, the day of the conquering sun&#8230;He died and was resurrected in order to become a messenger god, an intermediary between man and the good god of light, and the leader of the forces of righteousness against the dark forces of the god evil.&#8221;</p>
<p>With so many obvious similarities between Mithras and Jesus, why does only Christianity exist today even though Mithraism was practiced for 1400 years before Jesus was born?  Perhaps because Mithraism did not permit women to participate, so it was far less inclusive and presumably less popular than Christianity.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/comment-page-1/#comment-8761</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 05:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=766#comment-8761</guid>
		<description>My family has adopted a "buy-nothing" format for our personal gift-giving. I personally am writing some songs on my guitar for my family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My family has adopted a &#8220;buy-nothing&#8221; format for our personal gift-giving. I personally am writing some songs on my guitar for my family.</p>
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		<title>By: Martian</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/comment-page-1/#comment-8736</link>
		<dc:creator>Martian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 00:25:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=766#comment-8736</guid>
		<description>Not to mention the fact that Jesus wasn't born in December at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to mention the fact that Jesus wasn&#8217;t born in December at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Boslaugh</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/comment-page-1/#comment-8727</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Boslaugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 21:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=766#comment-8727</guid>
		<description>If it makes anyone feel better, I have read that the day after Thanksgiving is only the fourth most active shopping day: lots of foot traffic but not so much in sales compared to the days immediately preceeding Christmas. Personally, every Thanksgiving I give thanks that I don't have to get involved in the mall crush (or the holiday buying frenzy in general).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it makes anyone feel better, I have read that the day after Thanksgiving is only the fourth most active shopping day: lots of foot traffic but not so much in sales compared to the days immediately preceeding Christmas. Personally, every Thanksgiving I give thanks that I don&#8217;t have to get involved in the mall crush (or the holiday buying frenzy in general).</p>
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		<title>By: grumpypilgrim</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/comment-page-1/#comment-8726</link>
		<dc:creator>grumpypilgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 21:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=766#comment-8726</guid>
		<description>Here is a nice tradition for holiday giving:  donate money to a needy charity in the name of the person to whom you are making a gift.  In doing so, you satisfy the unofficial obligation to give gifts, you contribute nothing to the overload of stuff that already burdens the lives of your friends and relatives, you help people during the holiday who actually do need more stuff, and you give charities another name on their mailing list, so next year maybe the tradition will spread.  The way I understand Christianity, true giving is not exchanging presents with friends and relatives who are giving you reciprocal gifts; true Christian giving is giving to people who have real needs and who you know will not reciprocate to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a nice tradition for holiday giving:  donate money to a needy charity in the name of the person to whom you are making a gift.  In doing so, you satisfy the unofficial obligation to give gifts, you contribute nothing to the overload of stuff that already burdens the lives of your friends and relatives, you help people during the holiday who actually do need more stuff, and you give charities another name on their mailing list, so next year maybe the tradition will spread.  The way I understand Christianity, true giving is not exchanging presents with friends and relatives who are giving you reciprocal gifts; true Christian giving is giving to people who have real needs and who you know will not reciprocate to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Scholar</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/comment-page-1/#comment-8708</link>
		<dc:creator>Scholar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=766#comment-8708</guid>
		<description>I like the use of a graphical representation to examine/attack Christianity. This may help some "readers" who may not be literate enough to be able to "read" more than the headlines. Or those who may choose not to read articles they find heretical. The word "orgy" of course would be reason for many to disregard this headline as a hoax, however accurate it may be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the use of a graphical representation to examine/attack Christianity. This may help some &#8220;readers&#8221; who may not be literate enough to be able to &#8220;read&#8221; more than the headlines. Or those who may choose not to read articles they find heretical. The word &#8220;orgy&#8221; of course would be reason for many to disregard this headline as a hoax, however accurate it may be.</p>
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		<title>By: Deb</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/11/25/celebrating-the-king-of-kings-with-things-and-things/comment-page-1/#comment-8706</link>
		<dc:creator>Deb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Nov 2006 16:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=766#comment-8706</guid>
		<description>This orgy of buying seems somewhat related to the Native American tradition of potlaches.

The old practice in many tribes was that the leaders, the most respected individuals of the tribe, were generally the least affluent.  They were the poorest because they were the most generous.  They saw it as their responsibility to give to those who had the least, the widows, the disabled, etc., and many times did without so that someone else would not.  Unfortunately, that is seldom the case these days.  Like the dominant culture, where power means money and the government leaders have lots of both, tribal chiefs or tribal chairmen often live in the best houses, drive the best cars, and have lots of other advantages other tribal members lack.  One has only to see the residence of Hollis Roberts, disgraced chief of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma (convicted sex offender), complete with electronically monitored gate and the best paved road in the county.   Roberts is no different than most other men of power, though, so I don't mean to particularly single him out.  Bottom line is that in both cultures, native and anglo, our leaders tend to be the wealthiest among us.   

One tradition that illustrated the belief that giving was good was the potlach.  The potlach was a 'give away' where the giver accumulated social status by giving things to others (mostly opposite of our 'gimme' dominant culture).  In some tribal cultures, particularly in northwest North American, potlatch was the custom.  At some significant event, such as the birth of a child or a marriage, a great party was held.  The host not only provided the feast, but gave away food, clothes, tools, and other items to guests.  It was a mark of great esteem to give in abundance, and in some cases, even to the point of the host giving his home.  This all seemed to work pretty well since it cycled around.  The recipients at one potlatch would often be the giver at another.  It worked pretty well that is, until European influence changed the cultural landscapte.

When the tribes were defeated, they became very poor, for a multitude of reasons.  Being poor did not stop the potlaches, in fact, they became much more intensive.  They truly believed that "giving was receiving" and so attempted to better themselves by giving more.  In some instances, the potlatch host would give away everything, his home, his food, his clothes, and be left completely destitute, homeless, naked and starving.  Missionaries were the face of the American government on the reservations, and made all the rules, so they forced a stop to the potlaches.  

The ban on potlatches worked for a while.  No more potlatches to celebrate births and marriages, to mourn deaths.  But since the potlatch was a deeply ingrained tradition, there was an answer:  hold the giveaway on December 25.  The missionaries didn't stop that.  Records from that time reflect that the missionaries were pleased that the Indians had decided to celebrate "Christmas."

Nearly every tribe still has a similar tradition.  Pow-wows are often held to celebrate tribal events, to honor veterans, celebrate graduations, etc., and at these events, there are 'give-aways.'  A special song is sung, during which a person or family wishing to honor someone will give many items away:  blankets, shawls, money, food items, tobacco, etc.  Some of these items will be given to certain persons the family names, and sometimes a call will simply go out to the elders, or to friends, to come take what is given. 

I often wonder if the Christmas gift giving orgy we see today is a corruption of the generosity of give-aways.  As with anything, if a little is good, a lot is seldom better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This orgy of buying seems somewhat related to the Native American tradition of potlaches.</p>
<p>The old practice in many tribes was that the leaders, the most respected individuals of the tribe, were generally the least affluent.  They were the poorest because they were the most generous.  They saw it as their responsibility to give to those who had the least, the widows, the disabled, etc., and many times did without so that someone else would not.  Unfortunately, that is seldom the case these days.  Like the dominant culture, where power means money and the government leaders have lots of both, tribal chiefs or tribal chairmen often live in the best houses, drive the best cars, and have lots of other advantages other tribal members lack.  One has only to see the residence of Hollis Roberts, disgraced chief of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma (convicted sex offender), complete with electronically monitored gate and the best paved road in the county.   Roberts is no different than most other men of power, though, so I don&#8217;t mean to particularly single him out.  Bottom line is that in both cultures, native and anglo, our leaders tend to be the wealthiest among us.   </p>
<p>One tradition that illustrated the belief that giving was good was the potlach.  The potlach was a &#8216;give away&#8217; where the giver accumulated social status by giving things to others (mostly opposite of our &#8216;gimme&#8217; dominant culture).  In some tribal cultures, particularly in northwest North American, potlatch was the custom.  At some significant event, such as the birth of a child or a marriage, a great party was held.  The host not only provided the feast, but gave away food, clothes, tools, and other items to guests.  It was a mark of great esteem to give in abundance, and in some cases, even to the point of the host giving his home.  This all seemed to work pretty well since it cycled around.  The recipients at one potlatch would often be the giver at another.  It worked pretty well that is, until European influence changed the cultural landscapte.</p>
<p>When the tribes were defeated, they became very poor, for a multitude of reasons.  Being poor did not stop the potlaches, in fact, they became much more intensive.  They truly believed that &#8220;giving was receiving&#8221; and so attempted to better themselves by giving more.  In some instances, the potlatch host would give away everything, his home, his food, his clothes, and be left completely destitute, homeless, naked and starving.  Missionaries were the face of the American government on the reservations, and made all the rules, so they forced a stop to the potlaches.  </p>
<p>The ban on potlatches worked for a while.  No more potlatches to celebrate births and marriages, to mourn deaths.  But since the potlatch was a deeply ingrained tradition, there was an answer:  hold the giveaway on December 25.  The missionaries didn&#8217;t stop that.  Records from that time reflect that the missionaries were pleased that the Indians had decided to celebrate &#8220;Christmas.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nearly every tribe still has a similar tradition.  Pow-wows are often held to celebrate tribal events, to honor veterans, celebrate graduations, etc., and at these events, there are &#8216;give-aways.&#8217;  A special song is sung, during which a person or family wishing to honor someone will give many items away:  blankets, shawls, money, food items, tobacco, etc.  Some of these items will be given to certain persons the family names, and sometimes a call will simply go out to the elders, or to friends, to come take what is given. </p>
<p>I often wonder if the Christmas gift giving orgy we see today is a corruption of the generosity of give-aways.  As with anything, if a little is good, a lot is seldom better.</p>
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