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	<title>Comments on: Iraq: the Democrats don’t have a plan or a clue</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/</link>
	<description>Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: hogiemo</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/comment-page-1/#comment-3122</link>
		<dc:creator>hogiemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=507#comment-3122</guid>
		<description>I called Skelton's office and got little help. I went back to his websites and found little more than already found.

Murtha's website referred me to numerous press relases and in particular one from June 27, 2006 where he details his plan and mentions when, how and where. Murtha's phone number was busy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I called Skelton&#8217;s office and got little help. I went back to his websites and found little more than already found.</p>
<p>Murtha&#8217;s website referred me to numerous press relases and in particular one from June 27, 2006 where he details his plan and mentions when, how and where. Murtha&#8217;s phone number was busy.</p>
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		<title>By: hogiemo</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/comment-page-1/#comment-3120</link>
		<dc:creator>hogiemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=507#comment-3120</guid>
		<description>So go to the website of CBS News for the date of 01-05-06, see story "Murtha Details His Exit Strategy" where there are three pages of interviews plus video. See also 8-25-06 KC Star interview with Ike Skelton, 8-20-06 Boston Globe interview with John Murtha. I "googled" these and got them in about 5 minutes. So then I went to the website for the US House Armed Dervices Committee and reviewed the statements of the Democratic members about Iraq. There's a plan mentioned for phased withdrawal. There are specific "metrics" (Rumsfeld-speak for what Erich calls 'verification theory').  

Oh, I haven't called or written either Congressman, I'll do that as soon as I finish this post. Since looking at the internet is the "preferred" method, I started there first and spent about 10 minutes finding what Skelton and Murtha are up to on Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So go to the website of CBS News for the date of 01-05-06, see story &#8220;Murtha Details His Exit Strategy&#8221; where there are three pages of interviews plus video. See also 8-25-06 KC Star interview with Ike Skelton, 8-20-06 Boston Globe interview with John Murtha. I &#8220;googled&#8221; these and got them in about 5 minutes. So then I went to the website for the US House Armed Dervices Committee and reviewed the statements of the Democratic members about Iraq. There&#8217;s a plan mentioned for phased withdrawal. There are specific &#8220;metrics&#8221; (Rumsfeld-speak for what Erich calls &#8216;verification theory&#8217;).  </p>
<p>Oh, I haven&#8217;t called or written either Congressman, I&#8217;ll do that as soon as I finish this post. Since looking at the internet is the &#8220;preferred&#8221; method, I started there first and spent about 10 minutes finding what Skelton and Murtha are up to on Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/comment-page-1/#comment-3106</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Sep 2006 03:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=507#comment-3106</guid>
		<description>Here's my point. This is 2006. People who are serious about communicating utilize websites and load it up with clearly stated information. Most of these websites contain lots of information about topics other than Iraq.

Further, most of these public officials have failed to present a plan both on their websites and in any other manner.

Again, here's what I'm after. A plan sufficiently detailed that I could know when they are following that plan or not. I'm looked for a plan that is compliant with the verification theory (see &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verification_theory"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s my point. This is 2006. People who are serious about communicating utilize websites and load it up with clearly stated information. Most of these websites contain lots of information about topics other than Iraq.</p>
<p>Further, most of these public officials have failed to present a plan both on their websites and in any other manner.</p>
<p>Again, here&#8217;s what I&#8217;m after. A plan sufficiently detailed that I could know when they are following that plan or not. I&#8217;m looked for a plan that is compliant with the verification theory (see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verification_theory">here</a>).</p>
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		<title>By: hogiemo</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/comment-page-1/#comment-3101</link>
		<dc:creator>hogiemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 23:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=507#comment-3101</guid>
		<description>So websites don't have what some people call a "plan" and that forms the basis for an indictment of the entire political system. Seems like some bloggers need to relax their egos and maybe start talking to the people they're taking potshots at for lack of meaning.

I'll call and write Jack Murtha and Ike Skelton, they've been aroud a while and have actually fought in wars unlike the Republican chickenhawks that are mucking things up in Iraq and Afghanistan. Somebody else take two others and let's post the results. We might then have a reasonred discourse about what makes a "plan", rather than a self-selected survey of websites and a pre-determined conclusion of incompetence or lack of meaning.

"What say you?" said Aragorn to the king of the dead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So websites don&#8217;t have what some people call a &#8220;plan&#8221; and that forms the basis for an indictment of the entire political system. Seems like some bloggers need to relax their egos and maybe start talking to the people they&#8217;re taking potshots at for lack of meaning.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll call and write Jack Murtha and Ike Skelton, they&#8217;ve been aroud a while and have actually fought in wars unlike the Republican chickenhawks that are mucking things up in Iraq and Afghanistan. Somebody else take two others and let&#8217;s post the results. We might then have a reasonred discourse about what makes a &#8220;plan&#8221;, rather than a self-selected survey of websites and a pre-determined conclusion of incompetence or lack of meaning.</p>
<p>&#8220;What say you?&#8221; said Aragorn to the king of the dead.</p>
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		<title>By: Heather</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/comment-page-1/#comment-3059</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 19:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=507#comment-3059</guid>
		<description>"Another reason for Dems to not provide a plan for Iraq is that it’s a bit like smashing a raw egg on the ground and asking for a plan to put the egg back together: does anyone have a good plan for that?"

I think that statement hit the nail on the head.  As well, both major parties are scared to do anything at this point.  There is such a chest beating match between the two that they are afraid if either of them doesn't do exactly the right thing (or if the American public disagrees) that it will be the demise of their party.   

I think that the Libertarian party has certainly got it together though.  Too bad the US is so obsessed with this two party system of ours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Another reason for Dems to not provide a plan for Iraq is that it’s a bit like smashing a raw egg on the ground and asking for a plan to put the egg back together: does anyone have a good plan for that?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that statement hit the nail on the head.  As well, both major parties are scared to do anything at this point.  There is such a chest beating match between the two that they are afraid if either of them doesn&#8217;t do exactly the right thing (or if the American public disagrees) that it will be the demise of their party.   </p>
<p>I think that the Libertarian party has certainly got it together though.  Too bad the US is so obsessed with this two party system of ours.</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Vieth</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/comment-page-1/#comment-3037</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Vieth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 04:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=507#comment-3037</guid>
		<description>Erika: I looked at the Libertarian Party's plan: 8 pages and 25 footnotes.  The Libertarian Party does, indeed, suggest a plan for Iraq that is meaningful.  It might not work, but it is meaningful.  I admire the Libertarian Party for its straight talk. 

What do I mean by "meaningful"?  A "plan" is meaningful if it has enough detail that I can recognize when it is (or isn't) being followed.   The Republican "plan" and the Democrat "plan" could both mean EITHER of the following: A) We'll be in Iraq for 20 years, still trying to run the country (and doing so badly) or B) All of the U.S. troops will be pulled out next year.  In other words, the two most powerful political parties in the U.S. are both presenting "plans" that can mean all things to all people.  In sum, the Iraq "plans" being presented by both the Republicans and Democrats are utter gibberish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erika: I looked at the Libertarian Party&#8217;s plan: 8 pages and 25 footnotes.  The Libertarian Party does, indeed, suggest a plan for Iraq that is meaningful.  It might not work, but it is meaningful.  I admire the Libertarian Party for its straight talk. </p>
<p>What do I mean by &#8220;meaningful&#8221;?  A &#8220;plan&#8221; is meaningful if it has enough detail that I can recognize when it is (or isn&#8217;t) being followed.   The Republican &#8220;plan&#8221; and the Democrat &#8220;plan&#8221; could both mean EITHER of the following: A) We&#8217;ll be in Iraq for 20 years, still trying to run the country (and doing so badly) or B) All of the U.S. troops will be pulled out next year.  In other words, the two most powerful political parties in the U.S. are both presenting &#8220;plans&#8221; that can mean all things to all people.  In sum, the Iraq &#8220;plans&#8221; being presented by both the Republicans and Democrats are utter gibberish.</p>
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		<title>By: Erika Price</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/comment-page-1/#comment-3035</link>
		<dc:creator>Erika Price</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 03:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=507#comment-3035</guid>
		<description>Of course the Democrats lean on Bush-bashing...they see it as perfectly safe. Hell, even Republicans turn their noses up at Bush at this point. Bush-bashing has even become a pop cultural goldmine- you need only look at the piles of Bush-mocking books, toys, gag gifts, song lyrics, buttons, posters, and other paraphernalia to get the sense that &lt;em&gt;anyone&lt;/em&gt; can trash Bush without fear. But since nearly everyone does it, it has lost virtually all meaning.

I admit to having ulterior motives in pointing this out, but not only does the &lt;a href="http://www.lp.org/ies.shtml" rel="nofollow"&gt;Libertarian Party list Iraq as an issue, they have an exit strategy proposal on their website &lt;/a&gt;(I wish I could say that the &lt;a href="http://www.gp.org/index.shtml" rel="nofollow"&gt;Green Party&lt;/a&gt; does too, but they have less national unity). I suppose the party can afford to openly express its stance because it has nothing to lose. I just wish the Democrats would realize that a stronger offensive &lt;em&gt;wouldn't&lt;/em&gt; hurt at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course the Democrats lean on Bush-bashing&#8230;they see it as perfectly safe. Hell, even Republicans turn their noses up at Bush at this point. Bush-bashing has even become a pop cultural goldmine- you need only look at the piles of Bush-mocking books, toys, gag gifts, song lyrics, buttons, posters, and other paraphernalia to get the sense that <em>anyone</em> can trash Bush without fear. But since nearly everyone does it, it has lost virtually all meaning.</p>
<p>I admit to having ulterior motives in pointing this out, but not only does the <a href="http://www.lp.org/ies.shtml" rel="nofollow">Libertarian Party list Iraq as an issue, they have an exit strategy proposal on their website </a>(I wish I could say that the <a href="http://www.gp.org/index.shtml" rel="nofollow">Green Party</a> does too, but they have less national unity). I suppose the party can afford to openly express its stance because it has nothing to lose. I just wish the Democrats would realize that a stronger offensive <em>wouldn&#8217;t</em> hurt at all.</p>
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		<title>By: grumpypilgrim</title>
		<link>http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/09/08/iraq-the-democrats-don%e2%80%99t-have-a-clue-either/comment-page-1/#comment-3029</link>
		<dc:creator>grumpypilgrim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 01:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=507#comment-3029</guid>
		<description>I have a few ideas about why Democrats aren't talking about Iraq.  The most likely is that doing so does not serve their political careers.  As long as Republicans control Congress, and are thus in a position to claim as their own any good ideas they glean from Democrats, Dems will be reluctant to share good ideas...at least not until the election is so close that Republicans can no longer benefit from the ideas.

Another reason for Dems to not provide a plan for Iraq is that it's a bit like smashing a raw egg on the ground and asking for a plan to put the egg back together:  does anyone have a good plan for that?  

Another reason for Dems to not provide a plan is because it's a whole lot easier, and perhaps gains greater political traction, to just bash Bush.  Why talk about a plan -- which will undoubtedly draw ridicule no matter its merits -- when slamming Bush might be all it takes to win re-election?  Ideally, politicians would set aside such issues for the sake of saving the lives of American troops, but such altruism seems a rare commodity in Washington these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a few ideas about why Democrats aren&#8217;t talking about Iraq.  The most likely is that doing so does not serve their political careers.  As long as Republicans control Congress, and are thus in a position to claim as their own any good ideas they glean from Democrats, Dems will be reluctant to share good ideas&#8230;at least not until the election is so close that Republicans can no longer benefit from the ideas.</p>
<p>Another reason for Dems to not provide a plan for Iraq is that it&#8217;s a bit like smashing a raw egg on the ground and asking for a plan to put the egg back together:  does anyone have a good plan for that?  </p>
<p>Another reason for Dems to not provide a plan is because it&#8217;s a whole lot easier, and perhaps gains greater political traction, to just bash Bush.  Why talk about a plan &#8212; which will undoubtedly draw ridicule no matter its merits &#8212; when slamming Bush might be all it takes to win re-election?  Ideally, politicians would set aside such issues for the sake of saving the lives of American troops, but such altruism seems a rare commodity in Washington these days.</p>
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