Comments on: Star Trek’s Error: Spock’s lack of emotion would have made him irrational http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/ Human Animals at the Crossroads of Culture, Science, Religion and Media Fri, 20 Nov 2009 05:08:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: Tim Hogan http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47217 Tim Hogan Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:23:59 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47217 Sorry Mike, your nerd quotient just went out the window, how else would it be that twice Spock declined to complete the Kohlinar Ceremony which would "purge himself of all emotion." The First time he wiped out was when he felt the presence of "Vyger" in the first Star Trek Movie, and the last just before he was to enter the Vulcan Science Academy and turned it down to go into Starfleet in the latest movie. Neiner, neiner,neiner! Oh and by the way the answers to the nerd questions posed to President Obama about "Dune" were: the name of the substance mad from the drowned sandworm: "Water of Life," and; the name of the tool used to call sandworms: "thumper," and; the Fremen name for the sandworms: "Shai hulud." YES, I am the biggest theist nerd on DI! Sorry Mike, your nerd quotient just went out the window, how else would it be that twice Spock declined to complete the Kohlinar Ceremony which would “purge himself of all emotion.”

The First time he wiped out was when he felt the presence of “Vyger” in the first Star Trek Movie, and the last just before he was to enter the Vulcan Science Academy and turned it down to go into Starfleet in the latest movie.

Neiner, neiner,neiner!

Oh and by the way the answers to the nerd questions posed to President Obama about “Dune” were:

the name of the substance mad from the drowned sandworm: “Water of Life,” and;

the name of the tool used to call sandworms: “thumper,” and;

the Fremen name for the sandworms: “Shai hulud.”

YES, I am the biggest theist nerd on DI!

]]> By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47203 Erich Vieth Wed, 22 Jul 2009 01:39:17 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47203 Control your emotions, please, Mike. Control your emotions, please, Mike.

]]> By: Mike Pulcinella http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47201 Mike Pulcinella Wed, 22 Jul 2009 00:27:11 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47201 Blasphemers!!! All of you! If you think you've withstood the ire of religious fundamentalists by claiming that Jesus was misquoted and even worse...NOT GOD, you haven't seen anything like the wrath of Trekkies whose beloved icon you just TRASHED! Let me set the record straight. If any of you would have bothered to watch all 79 episodes of the original series at least 10 times each before spouting off your ignorance you'd have known that Mr. Spock certainly was NOT without emotion. First of all, the civilization of the planet Vulcan had long ago decided to CONTROL emotion, not merely suppress it, after nearly destroying themselves in a series of violent wars. Theirs is a rigorous discipline, not unlike Zen Buddhism here on Earth, wherein emotion is not allowed to unduly influence rationality. As a species they do experience love and anger but it is not expressed in a way that we would recognize. Further, Spock himself was half human and at some point in his life had to make the difficult decision whether to pursue his father's discipline of emotional control or allow his mother's side to blossom. Even infidels like yourselves know which path he took but there was always a struggle. Always the emotion was seething just below the surface and every so often, breaking out when Spock was under stress. Without emotion?? Hardly! At least...uhhh...that's what a friend -- I mean some NERD told me right before I beat him up!! Yeah, that's it, I beat him up! Trek NERD! Not me, HIM! Blasphemers!!! All of you! If you think you’ve withstood the ire of religious fundamentalists by claiming that Jesus was misquoted and even worse…NOT GOD, you haven’t seen anything like the wrath of Trekkies whose beloved icon you just TRASHED!

Let me set the record straight. If any of you would have bothered to watch all 79 episodes of the original series at least 10 times each before spouting off your ignorance you’d have known that Mr. Spock certainly was NOT without emotion.

First of all, the civilization of the planet Vulcan had long ago decided to CONTROL emotion, not merely suppress it, after nearly destroying themselves in a series of violent wars. Theirs is a rigorous discipline, not unlike Zen Buddhism here on Earth, wherein emotion is not allowed to unduly influence rationality. As a species they do experience love and anger but it is not expressed in a way that we would recognize.

Further, Spock himself was half human and at some point in his life had to make the difficult decision whether to pursue his father’s discipline of emotional control or allow his mother’s side to blossom. Even infidels like yourselves know which path he took but there was always a struggle. Always the emotion was seething just below the surface and every so often, breaking out when Spock was under stress.

Without emotion?? Hardly! At least…uhhh…that’s what a friend — I mean some NERD told me right before I beat him up!! Yeah, that’s it, I beat him up! Trek NERD! Not me, HIM!

]]> By: NIklaus Pfirsig http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47162 NIklaus Pfirsig Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:10:00 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47162 About Spock: My understanding of the Spock character was that the characters denied their emotional side, yet it would occasionally show through. The famous "Amok Time" episode where Spock had to return to Vulcan for his nuptials is the best indication of this. It portrayed the biological urge to merge and the associated high emotions as being shrouded in ritual and law. About Spock:
My understanding of the Spock character was that the characters denied their emotional side, yet it would occasionally show through.
The famous “Amok Time” episode where Spock had to return to Vulcan for his nuptials is the best indication of this. It portrayed the biological urge to merge and the associated high emotions as being shrouded in ritual and law.

]]> By: Niklaus Pfirsig http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47145 Niklaus Pfirsig Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:52:12 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47145 Erich, It seems you have a pretty good handle on the AI concept. Except the priorities are not pre-programmed. They are determined and assigned by the program as it runs. The result is a primitive form of behavioral self modification. The self modified behavior tends to imitate fear or lust. Erich, It seems you have a pretty good handle on the AI concept. Except the priorities are not pre-programmed. They are determined and assigned by the program as it runs. The result is a primitive form of behavioral self modification. The self modified behavior tends to imitate fear or lust.

]]> By: Tony Coyle http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47107 Tony Coyle Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:58:38 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47107 Erika You might want to review your statement... last I looked DARPA's robotics challenge has succeeded in delivering vehicles capable of autonomously navigating hundreds of miles of desert, as well as the most recent urban challenge, where vehicles had to deal the typical challenges of an urban environment: multiple lanes, other motorists, traffic laws, and so on. It's still 'research' but closer than you might think! http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge/index.asp Check it out -- lots of cool footage, of driverless cars succeeding where less than a decade failure was the norm. Erika

You might want to review your statement… last I looked DARPA’s robotics challenge has succeeded in delivering vehicles capable of autonomously navigating hundreds of miles of desert, as well as the most recent urban challenge, where vehicles had to deal the typical challenges of an urban environment: multiple lanes, other motorists, traffic laws, and so on.

It’s still ‘research’ but closer than you might think!

http://www.darpa.mil/grandchallenge/index.asp

Check it out — lots of cool footage, of driverless cars succeeding where less than a decade failure was the norm.

]]> By: Mark Tiedemann http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47106 Mark Tiedemann Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:28:26 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47106 Erich writes:---"It had slipped my mind that Spock’s mother was human. Therefore, grumpypilgrim is on target." No, that has nothing to do with it. Spock had particular problems with his emotions, but Vulcans as a race did not lack them---they were constantly working to control and suppress them. The Vulcans were very Japanese, who are also strikingly "controlled" people, but certainly to not lack emotion. It was the intellectual rigor of self control that represented the pinnacle for Vulcans. But they had plenty to control. Erich writes:—”It had slipped my mind that Spock’s mother was human. Therefore, grumpypilgrim is on target.”

No, that has nothing to do with it. Spock had particular problems with his emotions, but Vulcans as a race did not lack them—they were constantly working to control and suppress them. The Vulcans were very Japanese, who are also strikingly “controlled” people, but certainly to not lack emotion.

It was the intellectual rigor of self control that represented the pinnacle for Vulcans. But they had plenty to control.

]]> By: Erich Vieth http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47103 Erich Vieth Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:23:20 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47103 Niklaus: I am not familiar enough with AI or robotics to really weigh in, but it seems that the trick would be to program the choices of an artificial life form (software or robot) choices of action to some numerically weigh-able priority--energy units would need to have a high priority, so that they dictate action much like hunger does for us. These priorities could function as emotions, even though they wouldn't be "felt." All actions of artificial beings should have connections to the robot-equivalent of what cognitive scientists refer to as the FOUR F's (Feeding, Fleeing, fighting and reproduction). Niklaus: I am not familiar enough with AI or robotics to really weigh in, but it seems that the trick would be to program the choices of an artificial life form (software or robot) choices of action to some numerically weigh-able priority–energy units would need to have a high priority, so that they dictate action much like hunger does for us. These priorities could function as emotions, even though they wouldn’t be “felt.” All actions of artificial beings should have connections to the robot-equivalent of what cognitive scientists refer to as the FOUR F’s (Feeding, Fleeing, fighting and reproduction).

]]> By: Niklaus Pfirsig http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47100 Niklaus Pfirsig Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:59:22 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47100 After mulling this over a bit I think I should add something. Emotion adds motivation. Very rudimentary emotion can be simulated in AI by defining certain inputs as either reenforcing or adversive. The would be somewhat similar to pleasure and pain. IF the AI (assuming a robotic device) is programmed to categorize and store the unrecognizable patterns based on the pleasure/pain input, it will develop a fear like response to the "pain" type situations. It will also develop a preference for the response that it asociates with "pleasure". Emotion provides motivation. After mulling this over a bit I think I should add something. Emotion adds motivation. Very rudimentary emotion can be simulated in AI by defining certain inputs as either reenforcing or adversive. The would be somewhat similar to pleasure and pain. IF the AI (assuming a robotic device) is programmed to categorize and store the unrecognizable patterns based on the pleasure/pain input, it will develop a fear like response to the “pain” type situations. It will also develop a preference for the response that it asociates with “pleasure”.

Emotion provides motivation.

]]> By: NIklaus Pfirsig http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/05/04/star-trek%e2%80%99s-error-spock%e2%80%99s-lack-of-emotion-would-have-made-him-irrational/comment-page-1/#comment-47081 NIklaus Pfirsig Mon, 20 Jul 2009 02:46:10 +0000 http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=146#comment-47081 I don't think it's the lack of emotion that is the problem in the the robotics example Erika cited. I've worked with artificial intelligence software based on neural net simulation and fuzzy logic. AI techniques involve algorithms which effective allow the computer to make an educated guess. This educated guessing ability has a side effect. The computer can artificially make mistakes. The Ai is basically used to recognize complex patterns in the input data in order to determine which predefined response is most appropriate. The process is similar tio a jury deliberating a case, but with the jury you have 12 jurors trying to reach a unanimous decision on 1 of 2 possible assessments. the ai is attempting to reach a majority vote of dozens of process "nodes" on 1 of a dozen possible assessments. The problem is that sometimes the AI can't reach the necessary number of votes for a specific assessment the software get stuck Emotion actually enhances learning. I don’t think it’s the lack of emotion that is the problem in the the robotics example Erika cited.
I’ve worked with artificial intelligence software based on neural net simulation and fuzzy logic. AI techniques involve algorithms which effective allow the computer to make an educated guess. This educated guessing ability has a side effect. The computer can artificially make mistakes.

The Ai is basically used to recognize complex patterns in the input data in order to determine which predefined response is most appropriate. The process is similar tio a jury deliberating a case, but with the jury you have 12 jurors trying to reach a unanimous decision on 1 of 2 possible assessments. the ai is attempting to reach a majority vote of dozens of process “nodes” on 1 of a dozen possible assessments. The problem is that sometimes the AI can’t reach the necessary number of votes for a specific assessment the software get stuck

Emotion actually enhances learning.

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